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The Phoenix
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Justin Cody
War Firm
#1 - 2014-02-01 06:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
Dear CCP,

I want to love the phoenix again. Right now no matter who you talk to the agreement amongst 100% of EVE players is that the Phoenix is 100% useless unless you are using it to probe and collapse wormholes. The idea that it is the best structure bashing dread is laughable considering it has the lowest applied and one of the lowest over all dps charts of any dreadnought.

The torpedos get out-run by a fast automobile from the 20th century and the cruise missiles (while having a decent volley) take forever and a day to cycle. Never mind that kinetic is the only damage type worth shooting with it...so despite being able to switch damage types you have to ask...will the damage type change simply make the applied damage to a resisted target...the same or less? Most times yes your damage despite being at a lower resist point will be less.

I have a feeling that you hate missiles in general or at least have no idea what to do with them. Also this is the only dread you can firewall. Plant one carrier between the phoenix and its targets and start smart bombing. 0% applied dps. The fact that a capital ship...A CAPITAL SHIP...or a much more massive SUPER CAPITAL SHIP can speed tank your highest dps weapon and negate over 50% of your damage is insane.

Lets look at them with long range guns and compare! [All shown assuming shield tank, max skills and 4x faction damage mods and meta guns/launchers and meta ammo]


  • Phoenix: 6500 dps
  • Naglfar 7300 dps [with only 2 guns!]
  • Moros: 8200 dps
  • Revelation: 6500 dps


Lets look at short range now


  • Phoenix: 11.3K dps
  • Naglfar: 12K+ dps
  • Moros: 15K dps
  • Revelation *cough*: 10K dps and is arguably the most cap intensive dreadnought of the pack. It is the most flexible in terms of engagement range and not necessarily needing large bins of ammo for re-supply but that is rarely an issue.


Also torpedo damage application is backwards to what all the other short range guns are capable of attaining (superior tracking and damage application to their long range counter parts).

If you were to make up solely for travel time in this case you would have to have it do 20K dps or more to make up for the lack of the torpedo's ability to actually *hit* the target. Also it is ludicrous that any capital ship can speed tank a dread of any kind.

I have used a phoenix before several times successfully and some times in a hilarious manner. Still only once have I ever sat at the top of the dps chart on a structure (tower or something down in solitude that had like 0% kinetic resist) and just under that of an aeon on a single cap gank...probably because I also got the final blow so I got one more volley off thanks to being on field first while everyone else hit grid. But still an aeon over-took my damage despite fighter-bombers having travel time and having to load grid and the moros/rev crew wasn't too far behind.

Even with I think all officer damage mods in the lows and overheated the phoenix tops out at about 13K. The moros pushes out more than that at a fraction of the cost. Even were you to compare it to a naglfar...the phoenix barely out damages it even with officer modules vs the less pricey and less effective faction equipment...oh and it has one less weapon.

All of the dreadnoughts have the same recharge amount of 57GJ peak recharge despite having largely different capacitor levels and dependencies. So exactly zero differentiation there as far as ability to withstand capacitor warfare that is commonly used shut down capital ships. Sure the torpedoes will keep firing but be about as effective as spaceballs at it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2 - 2014-02-01 07:12:32 UTC
CCP did upgrade the Phoenix. They gave it a much better wreck whenever it's destroyed… Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#3 - 2014-02-01 10:08:47 UTC
I really dunno where you got those numbers from but they are very off.

The phoenix isn't good at hitting moving targets but in terms of raw dps it shines like no other dread. Every shot to a sieged dread or a station is a full direct hit within the entire range of the missiles.

Here are the actual stats with 4 faction damage mods, meta guns and faction ammo.

Close range
Moros: 15141 dps @ 14+31km
Naglfar: 12475 dps @ 17+36km
Phoenix: 11326 dps @ 59km
Revelation: 10011 dps @ 28+13km

Long range
Moros: 8218 dps @ 66+30km
Naglfar: 7313 dps @ 50+88km
Phoenix: 6564 dps @ 191km
Revelation: 6625 dps @ 55+40km
Justin Cody
War Firm
#4 - 2014-02-01 10:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
now its time for a relational examination or rather the change in damage from long to short range and of course the reverse.

The Upward (or gain) relative to range.

  • Phoenix L > S: Δ 88%
  • Naglfar L > S: Δ 69%
  • Moros L > S: Δ 82%
  • Revelation L > S: Δ 53%


The Downward (or loss) relative to range

  • Phoenix: S>L: -Δ 51%
  • Naglfar S>L: -Δ 41.5%
  • Moros S>L: -Δ 45%
  • Revelation S>L: -Δ 35%


This analysis shows some interesting things about the dreads of each race.

Looking at moving from a long range setup to a short range setup the Phoenix gains the most in relative terms of dps between systems but not in actual damage

The Naglfar comes in as better than the Revelation in relative terms and markedly better in concrete terms.

The Moros in relative terms comes in second to the Phoenix but thanks to higher base damage output it stays ahead in concrete terms.

The Revelation in relative terms take a back seat to the phoenix, but in concrete numbers stays ahead though barely...plus poops cap like it has the runs.

On the -Δ side we see a similar picture painted as expected.

The Physical Gains/Losses:
A concrete analysis is below

  • Phoenix: ±Δ 5,800 dps
  • Naglfar: ±Δ 5,100 dps
  • Moros: ±Δ 6,800 dps
  • Revelation: ± 3,500 dps


Those are the physical changes in dps output and it shows most clearly where the Phoenix as a dreadnought stands. where as the difference in the change of output between the threet turret based dreads stands is ±Δ 2,300 dps (Rev > Nag > Moros)
The Phoenix > Moros is a staggering ±Δ 3900 dps.

A chart in list form would show this in a progressive change manner as

  • Long Range: Phoenix > Rev ±100 dps, > Naglfar ± 700 dps, > Moros ± 900 dps
  • Short Range: Rev > Phoenix ± 1,300 dps, Naglfar ± 1,100 dps > Moros ± 2,800 dps


Long Range deficit to the Nag is 800 dps
Long Range deficit to the Moros 1,600 dps
Long Range deficit to the Revelation is 100 dps or less and negligible. This is actually bad for the revelation considering how cap hungry its weaponry is.

Short Range deficit is even worse for the revelation with a 1,300 dps cede in the phoenix's favor (but hey torps can't hit for ****...so that is probably normalized to negated in the rev's favor)

Short Range to the Nag is 1,100 dps
Short Range to the Moros is 3,900 dps

For the Rev (another topic): -2,400 dps to the nag and -5,200 dps to the Moros.

Torpedoes only hit POS's for maximum damage. One day I'm sure CCP will calculate in orbital velocities and the POS will speed tank the Phoenix despite being at the same relative speed in a stable orbit.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#5 - 2014-02-01 10:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Cody
Ashley Animus wrote:
I really dunno where you got those numbers from but they are very off.

The phoenix isn't good at hitting moving targets but in terms of raw dps it shines like no other dread. Every shot to a sieged dread or a station is a full direct hit within the entire range of the missiles.

Here are the actual stats with 4 faction damage mods, meta guns and faction ammo.

Close range
Moros: 15141 dps @ 14+31km
Naglfar: 12475 dps @ 17+36km
Phoenix: 11326 dps @ 59km
Revelation: 10011 dps @ 28+13km

Long range
Moros: 8218 dps @ 66+30km
Naglfar: 7313 dps @ 50+88km
Phoenix: 6564 dps @ 191km
Revelation: 6625 dps @ 55+40km



I forgot to throw in the t2 siege mod on the phoenix

Going back to edit posts to reflect correct numbers

It is now fixed as of 5:45am my time
Luscius Uta
#6 - 2014-02-01 10:26:47 UTC
I would give it a 500 m^3 drone bay and then replace the kinetic damage bonus with a big bonus (at least 20% per level) to sentry drone damage.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#7 - 2014-02-01 10:52:16 UTC
Most dread bashes don't happen at the very edge of falloff (in which case you don't do much damage at all except for the phoenix which either hits or it doesn't).

At optimal+50% falloff is the range of most short range and likely long-range battles and it is at or under which dps is best applied. I have seen a moros single volley a machariel at 100K with Iron XL. try that with a phoenix (which doesn't have long range ammo) and you'll spew missiles into the ether. If you have cruise he'll warp off before they hit...long before they hit.

Most POS reinforcements are done with dreads, or if not then a super casually incaps the mods and stealth bombers go in for the grind when it is deemed too likely that dreads will be dropped. Sometimes combat bc's will be used but bombers can cloak and are cheaper by far.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#8 - 2014-02-01 10:54:18 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I would give it a 500 m^3 drone bay and then replace the kinetic damage bonus with a big bonus (at least 20% per level) to sentry drone damage.



Yeah lol!

But seriously I have actually talked to corp members about 'Siege' Drones. How hillarious would it be to deploy XL sized drones...bigger than fighter bombers and more like piloted turrets. They'd have to have massive HP to be useful or able to be remote repped. Overall probably a bad idea.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#9 - 2014-02-01 11:13:51 UTC
The biggest issue with the phoenix is two-fold:

Torpedoes can be speed tanked by a carrier or super moving at their normal speeds and that torpedoes and cruise missiles take far too long to get to the target given that instantly applied damage is largely preferable to wait and see if they warp off before my missiles hit or get killed by a smartbomb and do nothing type of damage.

So they need to be faster (by far) and hit/track targets to greater effect. I mean missiles don't get a tracking enhancer module. No shut up painters work for everyone I don't want to hear it. So yep its mostly the ammunition that needs fixing it turns out...well that and the stupid kinetic bonus. Make that kinetic bonus 20% like the hookbill and give it 10% to the other types rather than leave them unbonused.
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-02-01 13:32:16 UTC
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ CCP give rapid torpedo/cruise capital launcher module
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#11 - 2014-02-01 14:13:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP did upgrade the Phoenix. They gave it a much better wreck whenever it's destroyed… Lol

brave newbies will be pleased about that :P

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#12 - 2014-02-01 14:16:28 UTC
indeed the phoenix has been useless since 2008.. and citadel cruise and torps blow.. cruise not soo much as iirc they have up to 249km range or something silly so pos bash snipeing isnt a bad option.
i for one will be interested how ccp fixes/nerfs/buffs capitals in the comming wave of changes expected this year/next

(finishing t2 ships, looking at cap ships[again] and t3 nerf/buff/balance...Soon)

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#13 - 2014-02-01 14:17:44 UTC
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ CCP give rapid torpedo/cruise capital launcher module


nice idea but one problem.. rapid launchers still suck.. they would need to be buffed to 20 second reload and like 36 charges.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-02-01 14:44:19 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:
I really dunno where you got those numbers from but they are very off.

The phoenix isn't good at hitting moving targets but in terms of raw dps it shines like no other dread. Every shot to a sieged dread or a station is a full direct hit within the entire range of the missiles.

Here are the actual stats with 4 faction damage mods, meta guns and faction ammo.

Close range
Moros: 15141 dps @ 14+31km
Naglfar: 12475 dps @ 17+36km
Phoenix: 11326 dps @ 59km
Revelation: 10011 dps @ 28+13km

Long range
Moros: 8218 dps @ 66+30km
Naglfar: 7313 dps @ 50+88km
Phoenix: 6564 dps @ 191km
Revelation: 6625 dps @ 55+40km


These figures are without TCs/TEs. Fitting those removes any range advantage that the Phoenix might have.
Your number do show the worthlessness of the Revelation though.
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#15 - 2014-02-01 15:11:25 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Ashley Animus wrote:
I really dunno where you got those numbers from but they are very off.

The phoenix isn't good at hitting moving targets but in terms of raw dps it shines like no other dread. Every shot to a sieged dread or a station is a full direct hit within the entire range of the missiles.

Here are the actual stats with 4 faction damage mods, meta guns and faction ammo.

Close range
Moros: 15141 dps @ 14+31km
Naglfar: 12475 dps @ 17+36km
Phoenix: 11326 dps @ 59km
Revelation: 10011 dps @ 28+13km

Long range
Moros: 8218 dps @ 66+30km
Naglfar: 7313 dps @ 50+88km
Phoenix: 6564 dps @ 191km
Revelation: 6625 dps @ 55+40km


These figures are without TCs/TEs. Fitting those removes any range advantage that the Phoenix might have.
Your number do show the worthlessness of the Revelation though.


You could fit range rigs on the phoenix too bringing them to insane ranges. 88km for torps and 248km for cruise like someone else already said. And still all with its max "potential" dps.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-02-01 15:43:21 UTC
You can, but missile range rigs are not nearly as flexible or powerful as TCs, while also lacking the tracking option. And, of course, it's not nearly as practical to start ripping out rigs in the middle of a fight as it is to refit slots.
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#17 - 2014-02-01 16:01:30 UTC
That is why the phoenix is only good at one thing, bashing stationary targets. And i think it does that pretty good. All you need to think about is at what range you will be fighting and fit accordingly.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#18 - 2014-02-01 16:50:56 UTC
The problem is that there are a number of potential areas where the Phoenix has strong advantages, but then player tactics bring catch the other dreads right back up.

For instance, if you can't refit, the Phoenix can fit the strongest tank while still max dps fit. But in practice, everyone brings a carrier, fits their armor dread max dps, and then refits max tank if they get shot at.

Likewise, there is a 20km window for short range dreads where the Phoenix does have the most dps, but your enemy is likely to come in closer, so it can only play to your advantage if your dropping the enemy. Yet the gun dreads still do a decent amount of damage beyond the phoenix max range, so the window is small.

Damage type select ability is powerful but only a bonus to kinetic, and kinetic is the most popular dread damage type, so your unlikely to find a kinetic hole. Between the kinetic only damage bonus, and the superior raw dps of other dreads, you would need to find a really gaping resist hole for this to put you ahead of a moros.

Those niche advantages, against all the drawbacks mentioned by the other posts...
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-02-01 17:02:18 UTC
so.......we should buff the revelation :( i didnt know it was that bad.....
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-02-01 17:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Ashley Animus wrote:
That is why the phoenix is only good at one thing, bashing stationary targets. And i think it does that pretty good. All you need to think about is at what range you will be fighting and fit accordingly.


Look at the DPS and range figures with TCs, it isn't even any good at that, frankly. The basic problem is that there is no situation where the Phoenix is the correct dread choice.

Secret Squirrell's post is good too, although note that the 20 km DPS window disappears as soon as the other fit TCs. The kinetic damage bonus is a particular problem, given refitting and RAHs. In practice, you'd be well advised to load one or maybe two launchers with other damage types.

The Revelation was obsolete as soon as the Moros got the ROF bonus. The Revelation should have a significant range advantage over the Moros, but the excessive range of capital blasters and the ease of fitting TCs means that it doesn't.
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