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[Rubicon 1.3] New way of acquiring the Astero, Stratios and Nestor

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Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#221 - 2014-02-20 07:41:11 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:


Nobody would fly a 10-15man gang with Nestors for 2b each ship, but since this is a thread about new ways to get Nestor we can safely assume the price will get even lower. So cost is not a factor at this time since we have no idea where it will end up Roll


In that case, a 10-15man Nestor gang have around 10-17k tank. So in a 15 man gang you can EWAR 5 of them out of the fight and they still tank 10k dps.

This would mean that a 15 man gang use atleast 1-2 ships for EWAR and a few logi to get anywhere close to that tank. Leaving 10ish dps ships that have to do more than 10k dps total. With no EWAR or Logi ships you need over 1k dps from each of 15 ships,, and here you would clearly die as you have no chance to tank 15 drone ships with local tank.
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#222 - 2014-02-20 16:51:33 UTC
This will certainly lower the price for the SOE ships quite a bit. They are allready a really rare sight and the demand for those ships is not that much. I can see it in the future somewhere between 600-800mil for a nestor. Its better then the rattlesnake but not by much. And the current price is just too much cause for that ISK you could get a carrier instead.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#223 - 2014-02-20 20:45:50 UTC
is CCP going to release Sister's of Eve Capital Class ships in the Dreadnought and Carrier design?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2014-02-21 07:31:15 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Oh, and Rise, another thing.

Way to go on letting market forces dictate economic costs.
Nice to see you let the game be a "sandbox", as you so like to say, except when you want to help out a null sec area, and nerf the **** out of another high sec income stream.

ohnoz mai highsec carebear income stream cannot compete with other-than-highsec income!!1 nerf nerf!


Do the blueprint copies require a nexus chip in the production? Would make sense and also explain why the SOE is so willing to hand out these BPCs for nexus chips.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-02-21 08:26:30 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:


Nobody would fly a 10-15man gang with Nestors for 2b each ship, but since this is a thread about new ways to get Nestor we can safely assume the price will get even lower. So cost is not a factor at this time since we have no idea where it will end up Roll


In that case, a 10-15man Nestor gang have around 10-17k tank. So in a 15 man gang you can EWAR 5 of them out of the fight and they still tank 10k dps.

This would mean that a 15 man gang use atleast 1-2 ships for EWAR and a few logi to get anywhere close to that tank. Leaving 10ish dps ships that have to do more than 10k dps total. With no EWAR or Logi ships you need over 1k dps from each of 15 ships,, and here you would clearly die as you have no chance to tank 15 drone ships with local tank.



I think you'll find 15 tornadoes will alpha a Nestor in pretty much all standard configurations. A 15 man nestor squad would represent a lot of risk to the nestors without a lot more gained over a 15 man Dominix gang.

Particularly since the tornadoes could engage beyond drone control range.

RR spiders are viable for niche applications. For example they would protect w-space ratters against most casual threats.

However a 15-man Nestor squad in 0-sec or lowsec is begging to be engaged by all manner of fleets. Its lack of mobility will ensure its early destruction.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#226 - 2014-02-21 11:01:33 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
is CCP going to release Sister's of Eve Capital Class ships in the Dreadnought and Carrier design?

Does it get a Covert Ops cloak? Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#227 - 2014-02-21 11:35:50 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


I think you'll find 15 tornadoes will alpha a Nestor in pretty much all standard configurations. A 15 man nestor squad would represent a lot of risk to the nestors without a lot more gained over a 15 man Dominix gang.

Particularly since the tornadoes could engage beyond drone control range.
[/quote]

So we are back to alpha ships beeing better against something with remote reps, and snipers that can dictate range over shorter ranged ships.

What it does have over a Dominix fleet is alot stronger tank (not EHP but tank over time)

That 15man tornado gang would need tha range to survive, let the Nestors get to close and its dead.

Fleets that are made with the sole purpose of killing Nestors will ofc win a fight, but show me ONE subcap ship that can take on a fleet its own size thats made to kill it.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-02-21 12:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Fleets that are made with the sole purpose of killing Nestors will ofc win a fight, but show me ONE subcap ship that can take on a fleet its own size thats made to kill it.


That surely depends on the size of fleet.

I am sure you know that I am not claiming that this or that is better than nestors, I'm just pointing out that there is a limit to the survivability of a RR gang of anything, and that limit is not dictated by remote repping power - it's actually dictated by EHP.

In the example of artillery tornadoes against the nestor spider:

a) artillery tornadoes in groups of 15 are effective against most ships, not just nestors.
b) the Nestors would never get close enough to drop sentries that could hit*. They'd have no choice but to bug out after losing a couple of ships.

* there's a possible scenario in which the nesters all have MJD and awesome fleet piloting skills where they would stand a chance of engaging the tornadoes and forcing them off grid. Do you know 15 pilots you trust to be awesome enough?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#229 - 2014-02-21 18:54:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Those 15 Nestors have ample midslots for sensor boosters and damps. Anyways, at some point no ship can withstand "because of alpha", but that doesn't make the ships useless. It only makes them useless outside their role. Or, hey, these Nestors can rep insane amounts, why not use fewer of them and replace some of them with other ships to counter "Alpha Tornado Fleet"?

The "alpha" argument relegates all ships from destroyers on up to super caps as "useless" because of "why did CCP invent them anyways, they'll just get alpha'd".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2014-02-21 18:58:56 UTC
my position is that RR is a niche application. I have not argued that a Nestor is useless, merely that it has a limited role which will have to have an impact on desirability, regardless of price.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#231 - 2014-02-21 23:04:35 UTC
Nestor also have a nice range bonus to RR, making it alot better suited than any other batttleship.
The fact that people have used RR battleships with 50% of the range seems to indicate that ther is a use for this kind of ship.

Biggest problem with the Nestor ATM is the price, with these chips dropping the price will drop to where its worth using the ship for whatever purpose they buyer see fit
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2014-02-21 23:10:13 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Nestor also have a nice range bonus to RR, making it alot better suited than any other batttleship.
The fact that people have used RR battleships with 50% of the range seems to indicate that ther is a use for this kind of ship.

Biggest problem with the Nestor ATM is the price, with these chips dropping the price will drop to where its worth using the ship for whatever purpose they buyer see fit


I am keen to understand how 16km rep range is manifestly different to an 8km rep range.

I don't know whether you have tried the Nestor on sisi in a rr gang? I have. Mobility is a real issue even with the extended range.

RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#233 - 2014-02-21 23:15:38 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine.


As long as there is a use for it, i dont care where it is.
Diffrence between 8 and 16km means that your less likely to be out of rep range of any ship.
That people have used RR BS in PvP with good effect before kind of prove that its possible to do even if its hard
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2014-02-21 23:26:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

RR will remain essentially a pve doctrine.


As long as there is a use for it, i dont care where it is.
Diffrence between 8 and 16km means that your less likely to be out of rep range of any ship.
That people have used RR BS in PvP with good effect before kind of prove that its possible to do even if its hard


Yes, it's possible.
Yes, it is done.
Yes, it is a limited niche role, which is a shame for a brand new ship that could have been interesting.

As I mentioned, 16km proved to be a problem in the test fights my squad undertook in the Nestor on sisi. In skirmish pvp, it's really hard to keep a fleet in range of 70km logi ships, let alone 16km pretend logi ships.

Try it and see.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#235 - 2014-02-21 23:52:57 UTC
So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.

After that point, its all about how the meta changes over time and only time will tell how effective it will be.


Anyway, this is not realy the place to talk about Nestor usage in PvE/PvE but about what these changes may do with what impact these chips dropping wil have on economy and SoE ship usage/price
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#236 - 2014-02-22 03:34:12 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.

A lot of things in EVE are "doable". Feasible and prudent (considering it's a $1.6-billion hull at present) are another thing entirely.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#237 - 2014-02-22 09:49:54 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.

A lot of things in EVE are "doable". Feasible and prudent (considering it's a $1.6-billion hull at present) are another thing entirely.


Considering we are posting in s thread about new ways to get the ship, that means price will be regulated by supply/demand and not by SoE LP price. If we can agree that there are roles this thing does better than other ships, and we know that this role have been used before with less effective ships, its only a matter of time before it get cheap enough to use
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2014-02-24 01:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
So we agree its doable. Therfor the Nestor have a role it fullfill better than any other battleship in the game.

A lot of things in EVE are "doable". Feasible and prudent (considering it's a $1.6-billion hull at present) are another thing entirely.


Considering we are posting in s thread about new ways to get the ship, that means price will be regulated by supply/demand and not by SoE LP price. If we can agree that there are roles this thing does better than other ships, and we know that this role have been used before with less effective ships, its only a matter of time before it get cheap enough to use



There is a bit of an obsession in this thread with the Nestor which is arguably a lameduck regardless of price

What is more interesting is the potential effect on the Astero and Statios, ships which do see considerable current use. I know of people that regularly do losec roams in Astero gangs with considerable success. Their Astero loss to ships killed ratio is quite good and they often take on much larger ships including T3s. I am also aware of groups that use the Astero as their primary tackle boat who claim they rarely lose one.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#239 - 2014-02-24 05:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincintius Agrippa
CCP Rise wrote:


Last, we could have tried to make the Nestor powerful enough to justify the huge price-tag. We really didn't want to go with this option and create a ship basically in a class of its own which would cause a lot of balance headaches.....

Big smile



1. An idiot in a powerful/expensive ship is still an idiot.
2. If you cant justify the price tag then what the hell is the point of buying it?
3. Compared to other billion isk faction battleships, the nestor doesnt compare, at aall. To hell with the rr bonus, its supposed to be a big stratios plus a fir amount extra.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#240 - 2014-02-24 13:39:32 UTC
As far as the Nestor is concerned, seeing how underwhelming the thing is (and seeing how they didn't want to make something powerful enough to justify it's price) I'm now of the opinion that CCP would have been better advised to not waste time on introducing it in the 1st place. The Stratios and Astero are great, but even if it were the same price as a Rattlesnake, the Nestor just isn't worth it.