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[Rubicon 1.3] New way of acquiring the Astero, Stratios and Nestor

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2014-02-13 16:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I don't see why a player has to spell things out to the developer before they can admit there is a problem with the nestor... Didn't Rise know the ship had bad cap regeneration and scan res when they made the ship?! Straight


I think we can forgive Rise for this one since at the time he was distracted by debilitating effects sunshine and pretty girls on the beach in some far-off foreign hellhole.

I for one think he has a really tough time of it and can only applaud his fortitude in coming through this difficult time.

I imagine he is relieved to be back doing what he loves - raising the blood pressure of Eve players.

Blink


Let's cut them a little slack here, It must be really hard to try to balance any new ship when there are so many divergent opinions, and no matter what path is trodden, people will call out that , logistic/lasers/drones/battleships etc etc are over/underpowered according to our play styles and opinions... And do.

It is understandable that any new ship can become "vanilla" or underwhelming as a counter to this pressure, particularly after some of the stress they must have encountered after the previous ships.

There have been some excellent comments in this thread, regarding what it would take to improve the logistics role of this ship, and I was very pleased to see CCP rise welcomed one particularly well thought out reply, and was looking to incorporate some of these points.

I would love to see things like the mini ship hanger and other points of interest visible in the original artwork incorporated,

but of greater importance,I would also like to see the ability to move around systems while retaining cloak, Balanced by an inability to utilise weapons or launch drones or to be locked for 20 seconds after de-cloaking.
Sort of a shortened, enforced, mini gate cloak effect. Visible but not yet fully returned to real space, with all the consequences for both sides.
(Sisters engineers make a Breakthrough in "Ring Displacement" cloaking technology, allowing cloaked warping, But due to the size of the vessel, It has difficulties returning to real space.)

This would solve a serious issue with the Nestor users have, with utilising the ship in wormholes, a role it is otherwise, ideally suited for, and currently a near fatal flaw preventing it's adoption.

It is important to note that A surprise cloak ambush would then NOT be possible. Eliminating A major concern some have with a cloaky battleship.

This would then also allow fast lock speeds to be implemented , which is invaluable for Logistics, without unbalancing things.

This ship has the ability to be exceptionally useful, and although it is understandable to "play it safe" with design, if we can move away from that, It could be a real asset to the game.


I agree with your sentiment on the whole. Treating people positively will generally yield better results. However facts are facts:

1. Rise did go off on a CCP jolly in the middle of the design cycle of the Nestor so it would have been improbable that he could effect any design changes even if he wanted to. My feeling is that this has certainly contributed to the lacklustre design we have today.

2. Rise specifically denounced, and continues to denounce the very good suggestions made by experienced and balanced players in this forum on a suitable direction for the Nestor, e.g.:

2.a: Refitting bay as befits its support role narrative

2.b: covert cloak ability, as befits its 'cloaking ring' technology, evolved from the advances that allowed the Astero and Stratios to be born.

3. Rise has not ever, so far as I have observed, admitted that any design decision he took has been anything other than superb. I believe this undermines our confidence in his future decisions, as is implies an unwillingness to be completely objective.


The main reason cited by Rise for not allowing the Nestor to covert cloak is that it would be OP, without providing any specific reasoning or argument to back up that position.

In fact my analysis of the facts and mechanics of the de-cloak targeting delay and the general sluggishness of the Nestor paint a very different picture - the Nestor would be able to manoeuvre in system without detection, but would not be in a position to surprise-tackle anything smaller than an battleship, which can be tackled overtly in any case.

Remember that the time to lock after de-cloak is the sum of the sensor calibration delay and the lock time. Even if you gimped a covert-capable Nestor with 3 T2 sensor recalibration rigs it still has to wait 3.6 seconds after decloak before it can begin targeting.

The Target cycle takes a further 12 seconds for a cruiser and 9 seconds for a battleship, by which time they can be long gone.

Without the rigs, we're talking 6s + 9 = 15 seconds to lock a battleship. and 18 seconds to lock a cruiser.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#182 - 2014-02-14 08:04:22 UTC
An interesting boost to drone sites I suppose but honestly, drone combat sites need a serious buff. The most valuable things that come out of them are overseer tags. Given that all combat sites drop those + something else typically, drones clearly draw the short straw. I don't understand why we don't have faction/officer drone upgrades (ignoring the hilariously pointless DCU's). Why not add those in + the chance for a SoE BPC drop (or nexus chip as originally proposed)? Right now, drone sites really are the crappiest out there. I only run them if I'm bored and can't find anything better to do.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#183 - 2014-02-15 01:11:41 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Steph Livingston wrote:
Another option that I'd like to see is: Have each cosmic anomaly/site have a very small chance of spawning a SoE ship which you can assist in a simple objective (hack a specific canister, protect it from pirates etc), or fight (if that's your thing), in exchange for loot.

It would show the SoE pursuing their goals in game and provide an alternate game-play mechanic to obtain SoE loot, seems like a Win-win to me.


That would be so cool lol.




Oh the coding!

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#184 - 2014-02-15 01:22:13 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Finally fix the Nestor

IMO the best way to fix the Nestor is;
Make the Astero a Destroyer, buff its HP a bit and give it a unique bonus of 20% drone damage and HP, leave the rest as is.
Make the Stratios a Battlecruiser, buff its HP a bit and give it back its 5th drone, leave the rest as is.
Have the Sisters of EVE offer a formal apology for the Nestor and decommission it, compensate the recall with a couple Stratios and Asteros.


I almost fully agree, except for the part about changing the astero or stratios, both of which I have found to be astonishingly good pvp ships.

The astero in particular has shown itself able to get and hold point in the face of withering fire and then crucially, get away as the fight escalates.

In my view both the astero and stratios are very much worth the money since their survival chances are good.

The dev team did a very good job there.

The Nestor of course, sucks a fat one. We all knew that. Rise knew that too, but I think by the time the request for feedback was made, internal hubris had already taken hold.

+1 for "Scrap the Nestor, start again"


Frankly I think the Nestor design is a result of too much negative feedback such that the moment you say "nestor should warp cloaked" in any thread in GD, nullseccers all cringe and gang up on it.

But that this is a ship that's supposed to be able to survive, per the storyline of SoE, hostile space, and not warp cloaked, simply never fit. I don't know why people are so horrified at a cloaking battleship. Is everybody so dog-kicked from BLOPS Drops that the notion of a warping cloaked BS scares them so much?

The Nestor is a good example of what happens when the number of negatives driving a design outnumber the positives. We have a ship that by all appearance was designed around fear of "somebody will complain about.... ". So we are left with an expensive ship for which a particular role is hard to find.

Making them cheaper with the drone drop exchange is not a bad idea, but it feels like a bandaid. From the looks of it, pricing in Jita at "straight LP value conversion" - apparently 1.5 Billion - is still failing to move the Nestor.


And just like in the real world, no notion or plan can defeat market forces and the vote with the wallet has more power than any opinion anybody could have. The Nestor is not moving well in the market and that says everything.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#185 - 2014-02-15 04:07:17 UTC
+1 Scrap the Nestor.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hawkwar
M.I.M.M.S
#186 - 2014-02-15 10:59:48 UTC
The players who fly ships for their abilities don't as it lacks any real ability to do anything well and the players that fly ships because they look cool don't as the Nestor doesn't look cool. If it didn't have those huge wings sticking out of it I would perhaps own one but then I would also request they move the propulsion/cloak..... whatever the hell that rang is to the rear like the other two SoE ships. Then I might think about flying one.

TLDR - it looks terrible, performs terribly and is terribly overpriced, hence no one uses them and they don't sell.
Mario Putzo
#187 - 2014-02-15 19:23:29 UTC
Hawkwar wrote:
The players who fly ships for their abilities don't as it lacks any real ability to do anything well and the players that fly ships because they look cool don't as the Nestor doesn't look cool. If it didn't have those huge wings sticking out of it I would perhaps own one but then I would also request they move the propulsion/cloak..... whatever the hell that rang is to the rear like the other two SoE ships. Then I might think about flying one.

TLDR - it looks terrible, performs terribly and is terribly overpriced, hence no one uses them and they don't sell.


The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.

AS for its utility, it doesn't have a real defined role because well it is unable to perform its intended role. It will never be an exploration ship, because its a ******* battleship. CCP should refocus the ship for sure. But it is a pretty solid fleet ship in its current state, and if nothing about it changes it will still outperform the Domi and other subcap droneboats in nearly every aspect except cost. (which makes sense if its a better ship, it should cost more.)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-02-15 21:04:48 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.


Under the current LP conversion rate this cannot happen unless you have very irrational mission runner who is willing to convert his SoE LP into a Nestor for a lower return than he can for scanner probes etc.

Economics 101. Central price controls break markets.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mario Putzo
#189 - 2014-02-15 21:58:37 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.


Under the current LP conversion rate this cannot happen unless you have very irrational mission runner who is willing to convert his SoE LP into a Nestor for a lower return than he can for scanner probes etc.

Economics 101. Central price controls break markets.


Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2014-02-15 22:05:17 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
The ships is not even a month old, so of course its price is high. Its already "come down" about 600M in 2 weeks. Another couple weeks will probably drop it another 300-400M, when chips go live it will probably drop another 400-500M, where it will sit right in the middle of the pack of other Pirate Faction BS.


Under the current LP conversion rate this cannot happen unless you have very irrational mission runner who is willing to convert his SoE LP into a Nestor for a lower return than he can for scanner probes etc.

Economics 101. Central price controls break markets.


Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell.



I'm afraid not, unless you can persuade SoE mission runners to irrationally and deliberately reduce their incomes below what they can achieve by producing probe launchers, which is easier.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#191 - 2014-02-15 23:17:51 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I'm afraid not, unless you can persuade SoE mission runners to irrationally and deliberately reduce their incomes below what they can achieve by producing probe launchers, which is easier.

Exactly. Letsee... I can make 2:1 on probe launchers or take a 50% hit so a few people can have a discounted Nestor. Decisions, decisions...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#192 - 2014-02-15 23:41:47 UTC
Ya that is not really how it works, but hey like I said we will just have to wait and see, the fact you are hung up on LP is ridiculous considering we are actively posting in a thread about a drop mechanic.

But hey, you do what you gotta do Ill wait a few months and buy up some 800K Nestors, if you are lucky I might buy up a Probe Launcher from ya so you can make your ISK.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#193 - 2014-02-16 00:22:09 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ya that is not really how it works, but hey like I said we will just have to wait and see, the fact you are hung up on LP is ridiculous considering we are actively posting in a thread about a drop mechanic.

But hey, you do what you gotta do Ill wait a few months and buy up some 800K Nestors, if you are lucky I might buy up a Probe Launcher from ya so you can make your ISK.

The price is governed by SoE LP, so all you're going to see via the drop mechanic is either a cheaper Nestor for the recipient or substantially more profit if he opts to sell it. Again, the market value is $1.6-billion - so unless you're desperate for cash why would you sell it for less? And even if you did, you'd just see it immediately flipped by the buyer for a higher price.

And the Nestor still sucks.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#194 - 2014-02-16 00:34:36 UTC
Thats not how markets work. But you keep fighting the good fight. Hit me up in the summer if you are still selling Nestors @ 1.6B
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#195 - 2014-02-16 00:34:48 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I think I would rather see a low chance for a Nexus Chip drop from all pirate factions rather than this attempt to buff drone sites.


No what really needs to happen is to create a line of deadspace mods for drone drops. Starting with the Adaptive Invulnerability Field.

Then lower the drop rate for other regions to compensate.

Except drones are generally active armor tanked or buffer tanked, so them dropping shield deadspace mods would be now out of place than the SOE exchange chips.

If any interesting deadspace mods should come from drone sites it should be deadspace buffer mods.


Actually I don't care what mods they are, although there seems to be a shortage on Adaptive Invul's.

Anything would be better than "NOTHTING".

Even in missions, they drop 'NOTHING".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#196 - 2014-02-16 00:59:25 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Thats not how markets work. But you keep fighting the good fight. Hit me up in the summer if you are still selling Nestors @ 1.6B

Yeah, it's called supply and demand. There's amply supply of Nestors, and they all still suck even at half the current market price. Four Rattlesnakes vs. a single Nestor, two Rattlesnakes vs. a single Nestor, even trade for a Nestor… I'd still take the Rattlesnake.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#197 - 2014-02-16 16:18:09 UTC
So what you are saying is that Guristas LP is currently worth 4-500isk (based on Rattlesnake price)

Supply/demand will make the Nestor cheaper and cheaper until its worth using. This WILL happen since these chips will drop and people will want to unload those.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#198 - 2014-02-16 17:30:20 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Supply/demand will make the Nestor cheaper and cheaper until its worth using.

No offense, but some of you are delusional if you think the Nestor is worth any of the other Pirate battleships - let alone a Rattlesnake (which is basically the price of a Stratios). I don't know how else to term expectations that the Nestor will drop to below $800-million ISK in price other than pure fantasy.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#199 - 2014-02-16 18:18:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Supply/demand will make the Nestor cheaper and cheaper until its worth using.

No offense, but some of you are delusional if you think the Nestor is worth any of the other Pirate battleships - let alone a Rattlesnake (which is basically the price of a Stratios). I don't know how else to term expectations that the Nestor will drop to below $800-million ISK in price other than pure fantasy.


Actually, it very likely will.
Very soon, when CCP gifts PL with the SoE ship chips in the drone regions, we are going to see the Nestor cost not dictated at all by SoE LP, but by the availability of the Nestor chip, and the mineral costs.

Using the Fuzzworks website, it looks like mineral costs are about 182 million, or in that range.
Knowing how much CCP hates high sec, and want to boost PL's finances, you can expect a very high drop rate of the chips in the Drone regions.

So the price for the Nestor will drop very soon, very much, especially since the ship is not best of breed in any function, and there is very little demand for the ship.
Tsikuu
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2014-02-16 18:25:45 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Supply/demand will make the Nestor cheaper and cheaper until its worth using.

No offense, but some of you are delusional if you think the Nestor is worth any of the other Pirate battleships - let alone a Rattlesnake (which is basically the price of a Stratios). I don't know how else to term expectations that the Nestor will drop to below $800-million ISK in price other than pure fantasy.


Actually, it very likely will.
Very soon, when CCP gifts PL with the SoE ship chips in the drone regions, we are going to see the Nestor cost not dictated at all by SoE LP, but by the availability of the Nestor chip, and the mineral costs.

Using the Fuzzworks website, it looks like mineral costs are about 182 million, or in that range.
Knowing how much CCP hates high sec, and want to boost PL's finances, you can expect a very high drop rate of the chips in the Drone regions.

So the price for the Nestor will drop very soon, very much, especially since the ship is not best of breed in any function, and there is very little demand for the ship.


Whooooo there, tin hat alert.

Lets be honest, the nestor is a gimmick ship. Even with the "bonus" reduction in cost given to the Goons, the current price just doesnt relflect its real world value. With LP running at +2.3k per unit that is nearly double any other factions LP, THAT is the issue. Drop the SOE isk/lp rate to 1.2/1.3k per LP and the Nestor price drops to its real level.

Anyway continue whining about how you goons are getting screwed by CFCP.