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Updated Tutorial Feedback

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Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#1 - 2014-01-28 18:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
Normally I would do this on Sisi before the actual patch, but I didn't know we were getting updated tutorials. Thanks to CCP for continuing to work on NPE, even if only a bit at a time Smile

Going through through the updated tutorial for feedback and taking notes as I go. Doing this on Sisi so I don't have to reset my settings on Tranquility and so I can actually do the skill que parts of the tutorial. Creating a Minmatar character to test it.

For actual bugs I've submitted bug reports (If only we could track our bugs I could link the numbers here *hint* *hint*)

======= Notes As I Go =======
== Beginning Tutorial ==
  • The videos for the 4 races don't have noticeable enough play buttons. Switching between them for a quick overview and then wanting to listen to one specific one again would be a typical use case I would think.

  • Noticed the music in the character creation steps is really quiet, actually couldn't hear it at all.

  • For step 09: Training Skills - More about skills - the whole bit about Show Info and Requirements would be way better to do with an actual item as an example instead of just telling them about it. I would expect most new players to be confused if they can't see what you're talking about. 'Show info' is introduced later in 19: Inside the Academy - Using Show Info to find more information

  • In 23: Additional Reading - Learning about corporations - I don't like how it says "Don't apply just yet, though - the optional Business tutorial, which you'll gain access to later, has an entire section on running corporations." It should say something like, if you want to create your own corporation you can do that too. But the tutorial should not actively discourage players from joining a corporation. It should encourage them to seek out a corporation that suits them.

  • Note about the process: for each of the career tutorials I created a completely new character and chose that career line as the first choice

    == Business Career ==
    The Acceleration Gates tutorial seems pretty pointless since absolutely everything in it was included in the Beginning Tutorial, it's just in the way at this point.

    Balancing the Books(3 of 10) requires switching ships in the station which has not been shown to the player. They need to know about their ship hangar or they wont even find the ship that was the reward from the previous mission (2 of 10).
    The insurance tutorial that pops up AFTER you board a ship shows you how to board a ship. (Reminds me of recursion... To understand recursion you must first understand recursion.)

    Also for 3 of 10 there is no mining laser supplied (bug reported)
    3 of 10 also needs to trigger the mining tutorial
    Finally, the Reprocessing tutorial that pops up as soon as you accept 3 of 10 should be triggered AFTER of the above, no sooner.

    Balancing the Books(10 of 10) you need the Industry Skill book to complete the mission but it is not supplied (bug reported)


    == Industrial Career ==
    Making Mountains of Molehills (3 of 10) starts the Manufacturing tutorial. At step 2 of 9 Building from a blueprint the tutorial tells the player "Before proceeding, relocate along with a blueprint and materials to a station with science and industry station services." However the player is already in a station with a refining service. In fact all the tutorial stations with the career agents will have this service. Instead it should say something like 'if you aren't in a station with this service...' Step 3 of 9 also specifically says 'relocated'

    Also, Making Mountains of Molehills (3 of 10) can't be completed without the industry skill book which is not provided (bug reported)

    Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

    Logix42
    Taxation Damnation
    #2 - 2014-01-28 19:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
    == Advanced Military ==
    Angel of Mercy triggers the Minimizing Your Losses tutorial. This tutorial explains how to board a ship in step 3 of 6 and then *poof* it gets interrupted by the Insurance tutorial. Once the insurance tutorial completes the Minimizing Your Losses does not resume, but should.

    Last mission of advanced military is really hard (maybe impossible) if you don't use the destroyer provided and just use the starter ship you have. Reasons a player might not use the Destroyer would be that they haven't had time to train the skills yet because Destroyer 1 requires Frigate 3 which takes several hours to train. Those skills probably wouldn't have finished yet if they chose this career line first.

    == Military ==
    In Cash Flow for Capsuleers (2 of 10) the player is awarded a ship but not given any instructions on how to board it... {{insert usual peeve here - see above, Business Career feedback on Balancing the Books(3 of 10) }}

    After completing Cash Flow for Capsuleers (4 of 10) the player is awarded a 1MN Afterburner and the Afterburners tutorial is triggered. That's cool but the player hasn't been given the skill yet and so can't fit it. So in step 2 of 5 in the Afterburners tutorial when it tells the player to fit it, they can't! (bug reported)

    Cash Flow for Capsuleers (6 of 10) triggers the Acceleration Gates tutorial which is useless since it was already covered in the beginning tutorial.

    Cash Flow for Capsuleers (7 of 10) grants the player a Small Armor Repairer I but the player has not yet received the Repair Systems skill book so they can't use it. (bug reported)

    Cash Flow for Capsuleers (7 of 10) also triggers the Armor Tanking tutorial says that the player was given the Repair Systems skill book in the Crash Course, but that part of the tutorial no longer exists (I think it's been out of existence for several years now) anyways... bug reported

    Cash Flow for Capsuleers (10 of 10) the player is granted a ship but not given any instructions on how to board it... {{insert usual peeve here - see above, Business Career feedback on Balancing the Books(3 of 10) }}


    == Exploration ==

    The 2nd mission, An Introduction to Cosmic Signatures Objectives, the player is granted a ship but not given any instructions on how to board it... {{insert usual peeve here - see above, Business Career feedback on Balancing the Books(3 of 10) }}

    Aura does an excellent job of explaining scanning now. Well done to the team/dev that redid that.

    In fact the entire exploration tutorial is well done. Good job :)

    Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

    Logix42
    Taxation Damnation
    #3 - 2014-01-28 19:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Logix42
    == Final Feedback ==
    Overall there needs to be more overlap in the career tutorials so players aren't missing information and thereby reducing the chance of them getting stuck and giving up. There is a definite feeling that the career tutorials were created with a linear path in mind, not that the player could choose whatever they like, in whatever order.

    Also for future testing it would be helpful if the tutorial stations could be seeded with items on the test server. There were several times where something was missing from the tutorial so I had to go 4 or 5 jumps to get it from closest station seeded with items. Minor, but would expedite testing.

    Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #4 - 2014-01-29 02:36:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
    Thanks for doing this. I reported some of the bugs/ suggestions I found on my first pass as soon as I heard of the changes.

    You have a more complete list by far.

    The changes have created a better tutorial for sure.

    The skills section needs to show the green yellow and red icons that are used and don't just describe them.


    CCP Maverick wrote:

    #17 Posted: 2014.01.28 13:03 | Report
    Like

    Salpun wrote:

    The new reworked tutorial is great. It needs to have its own thread though.

    Green line does not scale correctly at 90% screen resolution.

    Tutorial 17 step 3 does not mention that if you use the stand alone Training Queue you must apply the skill before it is added to the queue. Apply button could be changed to "Add to Queue." for consistency purposes.

    Issue with the switch over to career agents: New tutorial never gives the player a civilian mining laser even though it says it will. Business track requires the player to remember that going to a station without a ship creates a rookie ship with a mining laser attached before he can complete first real mission. Having a civilian mining laser given out at the end of the mining tutorial would work as well. The fact that the tutorial menu is talked about enough works in your favor now.}}



    Thanks for the feedback, shall pass this on. The 90% scaling issue is a known one.



    New ones:

    Captains quarters movement tutorial did not popup for me the first time I entered it.

    The fact that the options menus are accessible by using the esc menu might also be mentioned in the tutorial.

    The Wikipedia section of the help menu should include a link to the new NPE tutorial main linking page or include those that are available on a third tab in the help menu.

    The tutorial needs to include the neocom icons when it mentions those windows.

    New player FAQ is not mentioned anywhere.

    Please change the defaults for chat to one line visible from the two it starts with.

    Make the small icons and the ships and items tab default so that in stations new players to do not have to figure out a good default inventory location the first time they use it.

    While it mentions adding new tabs to the overview if adding a new tab was friendlier (currently you have to name new tabs to create them and then you select a default for the tab from the load default right click menu not the overview profile selection drop down.)

    When doing the marketing tutorial the skill books given at the end cannot be used until you train the social skill which has to be bought off the market.

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #5 - 2014-01-31 06:25:27 UTC
    Handy link to the last major NPE revision thread.

    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=138596

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

    Logix42
    Taxation Damnation
    #6 - 2014-03-08 21:30:32 UTC
    Sorry this took so long to complete, things have been a little busy. Anyways, done now!

    Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #7 - 2014-03-08 21:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
    Logix42 wrote:
    Sorry this took so long to complete, things have been a little busy. Anyways, done now!

    Looks good.

    They made some changes to the tutorials on sisi. The miner fix is in.

    Camera Tracking needs to be mentioned in the camera part of the basic tutorial.

    The biggest issue is if something needs to be purchased like base skill books. A direction to the market is not included.

    The place mission items show up is inconsistent mission needs to tell you where the item will be, would solve the where is the ship item issue.

    Had to purchase Negation, Social, Hull upgrades, Electrical upgrades, Two 1MN afterburner I's, Minmitar industral 1

    Balancing the books 10 of 10: needs to remind the players about mining and refining. Reinforce the fact that you might have to go out side the current system to find the harder to find ore.

    To fly the ship received in BTB 10 i got to buy the skill book but there is no tutorial popup saying anything about that so the player is not sure if its a training event to reinforce ship flying skills are needed or that the mission is bugged and did not give the required skill. When a mission gives a new ship generic it does no explain if it is better or not or what use it fills in the game.

    What ore needs to be mined to get noc is not available in the Noc info panel. Had to go to the evelopedia(had to search a little) or google it. not the best presentation when trying to manufacture something for the first time. Everything from the mining tutorial is ore where is it not i am looking for this material where do i find it.

    With out a system security level indicator in the gate interface there is no way to tell some one to look in a lower security area.

    Goes with the lack of a I got this item what can i make with it interface in the game.

    A new tab in the map allowing the type of ore you are looking for able to be selected and a direction to the map and how to use it when you start BtB 10 and open the manufacturing list window for the first time would solve that issue.


    Low sec warning is disabled when using autopilot even if the warning still pops out when you manually fly.

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

    Logix42
    Taxation Damnation
    #8 - 2014-03-08 21:39:02 UTC
    Salpun wrote:
    They made some changes to the tutorials on sisi. The miner fix is in.


    Excellent! Unfortunately I really busy and couldn't do these all in a short time period so some of it may already be out of date.

    Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

    Darkblad
    Doomheim
    #9 - 2014-03-09 21:32:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
    These Career Agent's missions changes are the ones I stumbled upon so far:

    Business 1/10 as well as Industry 1/10 supply players with an Industry skillbook. No more "do I really have to buy that?"

    Business 1/10 also supplies players with a Civilian Miner (like Salpun already mentioned above) to compensate for the lack of that module when using the Aura supplied Rookie Ship.

    Military 1/10 supplies players with the Repair Systems Skillbook. But it seems like only Minmatar agents do that. Checked Caldari (and Gallente), but those didn't. Amarr and Gallente get that Skillbook handed by Aura anyway.

    Military 4/10 gives players the Afterburner Skillbook. The Afterburner tutorial popping up on mission finihshed makes more sense now.

    I'll continue my update of the agents, also for other factions (currently on Minmatar)



    First Update: While the Minmatar Career Agent gave me the Afterburner Skillbook, I didn't receive it from the Gallente Agent in Couster. Looks like CCP should revalidate those changes.
    Second Update: The Gallente version of the Military Mission 5/10 still provides Shield Hardener and Shield Management Skillbook. Would still make more sense to switch to Armor Hardener. And Shield Management still is no requirement for non-civilian Shield Hardeners, but Shield Boost Amplifiers instead. Tactical Shield Manipulation would be a more related reward here (for Minmatar/Caldari)

    NPEISDRIP

    Darkblad
    Doomheim
    #10 - 2014-03-19 13:01:03 UTC
    Darkblad wrote:
    First Update: While the Minmatar Career Agent gave me the Afterburner Skillbook, I didn't receive it from the Gallente Agent in Couster. Looks like CCP should revalidate those changes.
    Second Update: The Gallente version of the Military Mission 5/10 still provides Shield Hardener and Shield Management Skillbook. Would still make more sense to switch to Armor Hardener. And Shield Management still is no requirement for non-civilian Shield Hardeners, but Shield Boost Amplifiers instead. Tactical Shield Manipulation would be a more related reward here (for Minmatar/Caldari)
    Another update, SiSi currently is build 742822. I've checked one career agent of each faction and can confirm that:
    Cash for Capsuleers 1/10: Repair Systems skill book is only provided by Minmatar Agents. No "alternate tanking skill" from the other three.
    Cash for Capsuleers 4/10: Afterburner skill book is only handed out by Minmatar Agents.

    NPEISDRIP

    EvgenI De9
    De9 Corporation
    #11 - 2014-03-25 11:40:10 UTC
    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #12 - 2014-03-25 12:23:56 UTC

    since that build is brand new how could we.

    What changes did you find.

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

    EvgenI De9
    De9 Corporation
    #13 - 2014-03-25 16:50:16 UTC
    aaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!! where is the PATCH???
    Darkblad
    Doomheim
    #14 - 2014-05-28 07:54:02 UTC
    Short Kronos Update, as of Sisi build 788070 (no longer current):

    With the scatter mechanics removed, an update (or rather rollback) four career agent missions is required.

    Balancing the Books 4 and 7
    Exploration 3 and 4

    This happened, with one exception. Scanning of Relic Sites still mentions the need to catch a mini container. The other missions are back to their description as it was before Odyssey.

    Didn't make it yet to check for other changes. Would it be possible to get a DEV Response about what else is to change for the career agent's missions?

    NPEISDRIP

    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #15 - 2014-05-28 18:56:16 UTC
    Hey thanks for doing all that work on the NPE feedback... And I didn't even knew they updated the NPE !

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

    Darkblad
    Doomheim
    #16 - 2014-06-18 08:07:27 UTC
    They updated it again (wtihout notice). At least the Tutorial texts got changed. I've checked Manufacturing and Reprocessing so far.
    Looks like it's time to redo all of them another time.

    NPEISDRIP

    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #17 - 2014-06-18 11:41:41 UTC
    Darkblad wrote:
    They updated it again (wtihout notice). At least the Tutorial texts got changed. I've checked Manufacturing and Reprocessing so far.
    Looks like it's time to redo all of them another time.

    Sisi or TQ?

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

    Darkblad
    Doomheim
    #18 - 2014-06-18 11:45:55 UTC
    On Sisi. I didn't check too much further yet, but as there are quite some missions relying on reprocessing and manufacturing, at least they require some work to be done.

    NPEISDRIP

    Amak Boma
    Dragon Factory
    #19 - 2014-06-21 12:40:01 UTC
    well theres lack of wormhole explroation tutorial , there should be some training wormholes to show capsuleers what they re
    Salpun
    Global Telstar Federation Offices
    #20 - 2014-06-21 12:56:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
    Fresh pass with industrial changes.

    Afterburner given in Mountains of Mole hills does not have this skill book to use it.

    First items you are asked to create two Civilian afterburners take an hour to build.

    Shuttle asked to create in M of M 8 of 10 takes an hour and a half.

    Salvaging tutorial does not remind players you got to loot the can. Same with hacking.

    The might need to go out side solar system to get the ore required is clunky. Even saying go gather some Plagioclase would at least leave one leap to make not 2 or more the at this stage of the game.

    "While you wait" training should have shown up earlier it only showed up for M out of M 10 of 10.

    If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

    See you around the universe.

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