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CCP, you ever plan on fixing links?

Author
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#21 - 2014-01-27 12:42:53 UTC
Phaade wrote:
I It hurts those of us who like to PvP solo the most. Not a great move, considering solo PvP is the most fun you can have in Eve (in my humble opinion). ie. 1700m/s AB incursus that tanks 400 dps



So you want to SOLO, but with Links..... Hmmmm OK.

Despite the discussion about ion/off grid links, your OP really smacks of "Waaaa other peoples play styles are different than mine. Change the game!!!"


Also nobody is stopping you bringing your link friend On-Grid... I wouldn't advise it, but nobody is stopping you. Twisted

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Dilium
Screaming Hayabusa
#22 - 2014-01-27 20:01:30 UTC
Quote:
It is a multiplayer game, so you can solve this problem by bringing multiple players.


Quote:
Eve is a MULTIPLAYER GAME.


When people use arguments like this, i sometimes suspect they have downgraded solo pvp to a mini-game because they are afraid their blobfests will suffer as a side effect of changes that is good for solo pvp. Right now i don't care if your precious booster alt is forced on grid or taken in on killmail somehow. Atleast then it will be there for all to see, like Falcon alt, as a token of your...playstyle.

Im not judging people using OGB, or maybe i am, but that is not relevant to the topic anyway.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#23 - 2014-01-27 20:55:22 UTC
On-grid boosting would be useless in large fleet fights as they would get alpha'd instantly. Also gridfu is still a problem.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#24 - 2014-01-27 22:33:29 UTC
Phaade wrote:
I cannot have links unless I pay for a second account, I personally fly a Command Ship / T3 on grid, or I have a friend sit off grid and not participate in combat.


You forgot, "Have a friend sit off grid with a second account."

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-01-27 23:02:24 UTC
Dilium wrote:
Quote:
It is a multiplayer game, so you can solve this problem by bringing multiple players.


Quote:
Eve is a MULTIPLAYER GAME.


When people use arguments like this, i sometimes suspect they have downgraded solo pvp to a mini-game because they are afraid their blobfests will suffer as a side effect of changes that is good for solo pvp. .



Problem is the game really can't cater to solo. Make solo uber somehow and people will still group up and be even more uber.

CCP's MMO focus has to be in place. They know a larger part of the player base will group up. And not jsut for "We win" fleet/roam setups. Many group up to be you know....social. The whole

hey john, remember that little trip we took through catch a few weeks ago?

Yeah, yeah....some good times there man.

Eve kind of like rl...you can go the bar solo and drink alone. Or you can call up your friend and say its bar hopping time. latter tends to be more fun.

Or others approach to this game is specialization. OP and others like him seem to like generic eve action to be the all in one lone ship. Which is all good, sandbox game. Then you have peeps like me who at some point like specialties and odd ball fits.

One of my fun wolf fits is fleet support required. I to resolve the dilemma of how to tank and gank a wolf at the same time run MSE fit and gyro/te the lows. YOu might be asking wheres the point? Is none. I rely on others to tackle and a shield linker to boost tank is never kicked out of bed as it were. Lots of caveats to thiis build granted. But.....it hits pretty damn hard lol. I find it a nice break from the more common wolf fits.


Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-01-27 23:55:23 UTC
I just saw a rant followed by whining, and even tears. You've made your position about links, and the only solution you'll accept is one that CCP has said is server breaking.

I'm not going to tell you to get friends to help, you should just get some friends.
And some help.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.

Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#27 - 2014-01-28 03:24:26 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Yet another death purely because of links; 75% of them are. This time, it was a 7 km/s Malediction with a 36km point and a 14km Scram Straight with friends landing 2 minutes later....cuz hey, there is no escaping something like that (outside neut range, untrackable, uncatchable, can't slingshot, etc).
While I agree about your general sentiment about links, those Malediction stats can be achieved by merely overheating. Shouldn't blame links for everything.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Snuffed Out
#28 - 2014-01-28 03:24:45 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
I cannot fathom how you continue to support links the way they are today, though slightly less ridiculous than they were in the past. Do you really believe it's reasonable for people to run around with such a massive combat advantage over anyone who chooses not to pay 30$ a month? It hurts those of us who like to PvP solo the most. Not a great move, considering solo PvP is the most fun you can have in Eve (in my humble opinion). ie. 1700m/s AB incursus that tanks 400 dps What?

I cannot have links unless I pay for a second account, I personally fly a Command Ship / T3 on grid, or I have a friend sit off grid and not participate in combat. Since both latter options are not reasonable, the only logical explanation is that you wish to promote an individual having multiple accounts, and thus, make more money each month.

You choose to increase subscriptions in the short term while ignoring a blatant balance issue, thus long term subscription numbers. Not a great way to look at balancing your game, but I suppose it is your game. Luckily you have no competition in this niche (yet), or you may have to pay more attention to problems like this.

And "get friends who sit off grid and don't participate" or "train a link alt yourself" are not reasonable solutions.

Links have been ridiculous for years. The excuse that you are unable to program links to only function on grid is laughable.

Please fix links!


I'm compelled to point out that the OP is using a crap excuse to talk about links.

Eve is a MULTIPLAYER GAME.

Multi....as in more than one, plural, as in not singular.

If you find yourself in a solo fight... you've done it wrong and you deserve to die. Sure, its awesome to get a solo kill using whatever... but that is what makes it so challenging and rightly so. Links have bugger all to do with it unless your dumb enough to duel a guy in a local with more than the 2 of you and the other dude is hiding on the otherside of the system while his buddy pew pews you.

I have no objections to nerfing links so they only work on grid (i.e. they are visible) and that neutral boosting make people suspect (or get an LE timer to the people doing the shooting) to allow others to "reach out and touch them".

But complaining about links when your dumb enough to get ganked using them, in the absence of any alts or the flat out refusal to get them, without bringing any friends to help you is just plain useless.



I am sorry you are too afraid to attempt Solo PvP. You really should try it sometime, it is quite fun.

Apologies that I enjoy the thrill of engaging groups larger than one, and certainly in systems with more than just one other person in local. If that makes me dumb, then I, and all of those epic PvPers out there must be completely ********.

Furthermore, apparently you are too inept to understand a very simple concept:

SOMEONE REQUIRES MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS TO PVP AND HAVE LINKS AT THE SAME TIME, EVEN WITH FRIENDS.

Eve being multi-player does not mean I want to sit 40AU in a booster ship while my friends pvp. Nor do I want my friends to sit 40AU away in a booster ship while I pvp.

Please, next time you wish you respond, at least attempt to use that thing you call a brain.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Snuffed Out
#29 - 2014-01-28 03:31:42 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Well burn links in a fire Twisted

Why CCP won´t do a ****?
Why? Let us take a look:

-CCP has completely *** up gameplay for newbies. The missions are completely outdated and even carebear stuff like incursions need a high skilled toon and a lot of isk.

-PVP with only one account is only doable when joining big blob fleets. With links ofc^^
Otherwise you will get killed by players using link alts, neutral cloaky logi alts, falcon alts, multiboxers with 10 accounts in a sniper corm etc...

-So after CCP completely killed the game for new players they have only one choice: Force the old players to get more and more accounts. You had a loki booster? HAHAHA. You lost because the other guy had Loki AND Legion links^^

Actually when I see 30k people online I know that there are prolly 10k people and the rest are alts.

So yes CCP said they will do something with links, but wanna bet they won´t? Or let us be honest then everyone will be flying probably only with cloaky neutral logi alt instead of the booster^^
Damn this game is broken like hell but yes CCP we need more mobile structures^^


Praise the Lord! A man with some sense! All too rare around these parts.

All valid points; I understand solo is an uphill battle, that's what makes it exhilarating. It's plenty steep without adding the stupidity of off grid boosters though. I can deal with almost any conventional threat by just flying intelligently with the scanner, knowing my engagement profile, etc.

It is, however, much more difficult to manage a stupidly fast interceptor with stupidly long points, or a frigate that tanks stupidly well, (the list goes on) without knowing that my target is even linked until I'm on grid with them.


To another poster, I like the T2 booster Destroyer idea; I think it's a great one. Again, needs to require links to function only on grid.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Snuffed Out
#30 - 2014-01-28 03:49:18 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Dilium wrote:
Quote:
It is a multiplayer game, so you can solve this problem by bringing multiple players.


Quote:
Eve is a MULTIPLAYER GAME.


When people use arguments like this, i sometimes suspect they have downgraded solo pvp to a mini-game because they are afraid their blobfests will suffer as a side effect of changes that is good for solo pvp. .



Problem is the game really can't cater to solo. Make solo uber somehow and people will still group up and be even more uber.

CCP's MMO focus has to be in place. They know a larger part of the player base will group up. And not jsut for "We win" fleet/roam setups. Many group up to be you know....social. The whole

hey john, remember that little trip we took through catch a few weeks ago?

Yeah, yeah....some good times there man.

Eve kind of like rl...you can go the bar solo and drink alone. Or you can call up your friend and say its bar hopping time. latter tends to be more fun.

Or others approach to this game is specialization. OP and others like him seem to like generic eve action to be the all in one lone ship. Which is all good, sandbox game. Then you have peeps like me who at some point like specialties and odd ball fits.

One of my fun wolf fits is fleet support required. I to resolve the dilemma of how to tank and gank a wolf at the same time run MSE fit and gyro/te the lows. YOu might be asking wheres the point? Is none. I rely on others to tackle and a shield linker to boost tank is never kicked out of bed as it were. Lots of caveats to thiis build granted. But.....it hits pretty damn hard lol. I find it a nice break from the more common wolf fits.




They don't have to cater to solo, they simply have to make links reasonable. Increasing a ships velocity by 35% (or whatever it is) is absolutely ridiculous, especially in a game where speed is so critical in an engagement. And that's ONE of many bonuses!

Specialties and oddball fits are what make Solo PvP'rs shine, and what make a creative player able to take on the masses. So I'm not really sure what you mean.

If you want to fly in a group, that's your prerogative and perfectly fine. Links, either way, require someone to pay for an alt, which IMO is ridiculous.

There are things I like to do in this world with friends, and other things I like the thrill of doing alone. There are benefits and situations for both. Besides, Solo pvp blows blob pvp out of the water. Small gang stuff can be great fun too, but you have to have a solid group of great pvpers in specific fits, willing opponents, your friends to all be online....etc. There is no reason to bone Solo pvp the way links currently do.

(this may have been another poster) Targeting booster ships in fleet engagements does nothing but add the the strategy, tactic, and depth of fleet PvP, and that's something blob warfare definitely needs!! Saying that they "will just be alpha'd of field" is entirely wrong, unless you are so daft you place your CS's in the middle of the fight. If links reach 300km, then you place them 250km from your fleet, and guess what, you open the grid up to so many more possibilities! Warp ins, destroyers in formation around your command ships to prevent warp ins, the micro jump drive, the micro jump drive structure....all play to links being on grid A GOOD THING.

The mindlessness of having some tard alt in a safe spot 40AU from the fight for these MASSIVE bonuses to combat effectiveness.....................Ugh

Phaade
Know-Nothings
Snuffed Out
#31 - 2014-01-28 03:52:55 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Yet another death purely because of links; 75% of them are. This time, it was a 7 km/s Malediction with a 36km point and a 14km Scram Straight with friends landing 2 minutes later....cuz hey, there is no escaping something like that (outside neut range, untrackable, uncatchable, can't slingshot, etc).
While I agree about your general sentiment about links, those Malediction stats can be achieved by merely overheating. Shouldn't blame links for everything.


I typically can't overheat my MWD for 2-3 minutes straight, or my points.

If you know how, hook it up with that secret.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-01-28 04:03:52 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Yet another death purely because of links; 75% of them are. This time, it was a 7 km/s Malediction with a 36km point and a 14km Scram Straight with friends landing 2 minutes later....cuz hey, there is no escaping something like that (outside neut range, untrackable, uncatchable, can't slingshot, etc).
While I agree about your general sentiment about links, those Malediction stats can be achieved by merely overheating. Shouldn't blame links for everything.


I typically can't overheat my MWD for 2-3 minutes straight, or my points.

If you know how, hook it up with that secret.


Or the ability to overheat plus have links on top of that.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-01-28 05:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: My Little Pyongyang
OGB is a problem because it's easier for "elite solo pvp" players to pass off as actually solo players when they are anything but. I have no problem with boosts themselves, what I do have a problem with is them being difficult to pin down and out of reach. If you are soloing you will not find them, you need near maxed probing skills, plus a bonused ship at the very least. You need minimum two accounts as to find and kill the off-grid booster just because he isn't off-grid. If you are using two accounts in the first place, why not just use a booster?

To nip the implant argument in the bud, snakes (etc) are fine because the only thing keeping other players away from it is in game cost. They do not require a second account, they do not require additional micromanagement and they certainly don't slow down the game waiting for "elite solo pvpers" to get their OGBs safed up before they engage.

Another solution that I would accept is the warfare link subsystem should be in the same group as the covert subsystem. This would allow for much easier capture of boosting T3s on gates. There needs to be risk somewhere, and risking that someone with perfect probe skills, implants and a bonused ship is going to probe you down, get a warp in on you for someone else who can actually hold you down and they are going to tackle you before you hit warp to your next aligned safespot or celestial is remote. Not to mention that most OGB users would likely ***** out as soon as they saw probes and getting a single scan warp in on a boosting T3? Hilarious. Being able to be caught on gates by interceptors is much better. OGBs would not move without scout and/or fleet support, and gatecamped systems would amusingly be the best systems to solo in.

I actually like the above solution best I think, it doesn't hurt small-medium gang pvp too much, outside of not being able to scout with said OGB anymore. For small groups of people (3-5?) it would hurt, and probably significantly, but it's difficult to cater to every group and there are plenty of other dirty tricks you can use in a small gang as force multipliers like ECM or using ships that cater more to guerilla play. The people who this would hurt the most, intentionally, are the "elite solo pvpers". No one deserves more disdain (of the people who break things) than these people. They use OGBs and then claim they are solo pvpers. Yet using a falcon alt is much riskier than OGBs but is met with rage. These people call you risk adverse, and yet they only risk a very small portion of their effective strength.

LG snakes = ~500 million
OGB T3 = http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21375191 (alt)
Fitted Slasher = http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21379717 (main)
Actual isk at risk: Only the Slasher. Cheap as chips in comparison to the total value.

Note that I do not know if Transmaritanus uses implants but it's a pretty safe bet but that is definitely his booster alt so the overall example is fairly valid.

Note that not every person who plays with a booster alt assisting his single combat ship claims they are elite solo pvp, not every booster user deserves disdain for their playstyle. The fact remains, however, that a percentage of their isk that is part of the fight is for all intents and purposes inaccessible to the people participating in the fight unless you bring a very specialized ship to counter it. This argument also applies for snakes and other direct combat implants too, but you don't need a second account for them first of all, and I don't want to touch the uncatchable pod in low sec argument with a 10 foot pole.

tl;dr : OGB prevents me from breaking your more expensive stuff and it's too safe for what it provides
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#34 - 2014-01-28 08:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
Phaade wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Make links work on grid ONLY.

I'm sorry that went over your heads.


Which is something CCP have said breaks everything.


Yet another death purely because of links; 75% of them are. This time, it was a 7 km/s Malediction with a 36km point and a 14km Scram Straight with friends landing 2 minutes later....cuz hey, there is no escaping something like that (outside neut range, untrackable, uncatchable, can't slingshot, etc).

I find it incredibly hard to believe CCP is incapable of programming links to function properly (on grid). It sounds far more like an excuse. If they truly can't, maybe they should consider new programmers.

There are plenty of AoE effects in this game. Don't tell me you can't give links a 200km (or whatever) radius.


They Cant Code Properly a simple "Back to Charakter Screen" Button, come on Guys what do you think CCP stands for? *punintended*

In a more serious note, they do have plans and they know they are late, just keep calm and take a cup of tea.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-01-28 08:42:25 UTC
Making links work on-grid only is a smokescreen, it obscures the real issue that links are simply overpowered wherever they are. Relative to the stats of the relevant modules such as overdrives or SDAs, bonuses of 30% to speed and tackle range or 20-30% to ewar strength are vastly excessive even if the modules only affected the host ship, let alone the entire fleet.

The magnitudes of these bonuses puts anyone too new or stupid to be flying without links at such a disadvantage that links are commonly seen as "essential". That's bad game design.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#36 - 2014-01-28 09:03:40 UTC
CCP mention something like, Links should work in that way That you can shoot the Booster without dropping the Ball and go home, which also includes booster should be a valuable Target but not to important, on the other Hand they also stated that Links should NOT become mandatory.

Thats a horrific thin line they try to Cross without removing Links, nerf them to meaningless or nerf their usage in small, Medium or large Fleets.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-01-28 09:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Links are actually the biggest newbie and gamekiller in general.
I knew whole corporations of 80+ that stoppend playing mostly because the opponents had links 24/7.
So people stopped playing when they had not their own links and it happened that people stopped playing in general.
The corp of 80+ btw doesn´t exist any more. Mostly because of lacking 2 links^^

Actually I am in an alliance where a part of us recruits newbies and runs training courses almost daily. Now explain a two week old player: Well a 2 month old toon can kill a 2 year old toon, yes. But a 2 month old toon can´t kill a 2week old toon with links^^.
It begins again that people are scared when they can´t counter links with links and stop playing.
CCP is digging his own grave here.
They may have the 6000 veterans logging in almost daily with 30k subscriptions in total. But most of the new players run away like hell. Links are ruining the game completely and I only wait until a "but without links I can´t do 4vs1" idiot trolls me.
Then stop doing 4vs1^^. and grow some balls.

I love it when people without links are logging because they can´t do anything because there is a fleet in system with links^^.
Yeah CCP dig deeper....
There are even experienced fcs who ran away from the other fleet after at first loki and legion booster jumped in to sys and cloaked. Okay, they have 2 links, we have only one, sowe gonna dock^^. Okay players dock up and stop playing for today.

Ah and not to mention that total **** with linked interceptors now. If anyone know how to kill them apart from smartbombing please send me a mail. I fitted caracals with range rigs and fofs. Dead cara. We had lonely interceptor fighting 6 arty thrashers.... dead arty thrashers. We tried nados, vex navy with sentries.... gratz CCP. You have "linked interceptors" online soon.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-02-07 08:51:28 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Making links work on-grid only is a smokescreen, it obscures the real issue that links are simply overpowered wherever they are. Relative to the stats of the relevant modules such as overdrives or SDAs, bonuses of 30% to speed and tackle range or 20-30% to ewar strength are vastly excessive even if the modules only affected the host ship, let alone the entire fleet.

The magnitudes of these bonuses puts anyone too new or stupid to be flying without links at such a disadvantage that links are commonly seen as "essential". That's bad game design.


Amen!

(sorry for necromany - just had to do this)

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe

sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#39 - 2014-02-07 12:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: sci0gon
Phaade wrote:
Yet another death purely because of links; 75% of them are. This time, it was a 7 km/s Malediction with a 36km point and a 14km Scram Straight with friends landing 2 minutes later....cuz hey, there is no escaping something like that (outside neut range, untrackable, uncatchable, can't slingshot, etc).


FYI 7km malediction has nothing to do with links, I can pump out a 10km malediction without even using links just default t2 equipment +imps and a lil over heating. considering your a character from 2007 I would of thought you would at least do some background work off of your own back to work out fits and how potentially fast certain ships go, especially after patch changes to those ship types.
Pew Terror
All of it
#40 - 2014-02-08 01:54:49 UTC
Warfare Link Inhibitor mobile structure please.
Make it a system wide beacon like the ESS and block all boosting in system.
That way you have a way to know you are soloing in a given system and it would be trivial from a coding standpoint without making difficult on grid calculations..
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