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High Sec War Deccing is Utterly Broken.

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#61 - 2014-01-26 04:40:32 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
but there's no proper disadvantage from running and hiding and no advantage to staying and fighting


Is it weird that I agree with you?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-01-26 04:41:17 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Michele Bachmann wrote:
As a hopeful CSM9 candidate who specializes in these kinds of issues these concerns raise some interesting questions and ideas.

I agree that the current wardeccing system is broken. Although not in the ways you listed.


No, it's broken because of a great number of simple truths about the game generally and high sec specifically, starting with the fact that player corporations are borderline meaningless, not least because alts exist. The only thing that enforcing a high tax rate on NPC corps did is drive a lot of veteran players into tax shelter corps, leaving the newbies to commingle with the most risk-averse players in the game (with the notable exception of CAS, detailed below).

Michele Bachmann wrote:
In my opinion, dropping into an NPC corp that cannot be wardecced is unacceptable for characters of a certain age or skillpoint level. After a period of 6 months or x number of skillpoints that a character has accrued, that character should be placed into an NPC corp that can be wardecced.


So the veteran crew at Center for Advanced Studies should be taken away from the newbies who they lead on regular roams through low sec and null sec and placed in a ghetto so that you can shoot at them when you want to? What good does that do?

If anything, I'd like to see more of what CAS is doing. Much more.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
Another broken mechanic in the wardec system is assets in space, namely, POCOs. Currently if a corp is under a wardec they cannot transfer pocos to another corp.


How is this in the least bit more hypocritical than having a corp full of PVP alts dec an industrial or newbie corp while the deccers' PVE alts bear it up with no consequences? Or, how is it more hypocritical than having the industrialists all log in on their alts and ignore the dec for the duration? You think characters matter. They don't (more precisely, they only matter to newbies). Neither do corporations. Solve those dilemmas, and you solve wardecs. Well, at least you solve the solvable problems.

[EDIT: Or, you could look at the fact that CONCORD is a dumb, ham-fisted solution--but then try to come up with a better one that isn't so nuanced that it leaves new players disoriented and misled--CONCORD's bad enough at that.]



i wish i could be as nihilistic as you when it comes to these things.

If CAS vets want to stay in CAS let them state their case to CCP, if they're already doing good things for noobs then it should be no problem for them to stay in their corp. This is not a new idea.

If someone can figure out who those PvE alts are they are more than welcome to wardec them same as anyone
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#63 - 2014-01-26 04:41:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dersen Lowery, you are on my list of least-awful GD posters


Is it weird that I agree with you twice in the same thread?

WTF is going on here?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2014-01-26 04:44:59 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Is it weird that I agree with you twice in the same thread?

no; i'm great
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#65 - 2014-01-26 04:46:03 UTC
War decs USED to be broken. We bitched about them incessantly in these very forums. Now that they are actually functional you complain because you are vulnerable to a war dec?

CCP just can't seem to please everyone.

Wardecs are great. They are working fine. Move along...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#66 - 2014-01-26 04:56:01 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
i wish i could be as nihilistic as you when it comes to these things.


It's not nihilism, it's mechanics. I'm a role-player. I would very much like characters to matter. Generally, people will do things that are to their perceived advantage, and not do things that they believe will put them at a disadvantage. More to the point, they will do things that they perceive as fun and not do things that they perceive as not fun.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
If CAS vets want to stay in CAS let them state their case to CCP, if they're already doing good things for noobs then it should be no problem for them to stay in their corp. This is not a new idea.


So your solution is to put more of a burden on the CCP Community team? I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear that. Though, to be fair, I would *love* to see it happen the other way 'round, with CCP finding and engaging helpful people and giving them an incentive to either stay in the new player corps or roll alts in them.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
If someone can figure out who those PvE alts are they are more than welcome to wardec them same as anyone


So that they can drop corp, and cost the decced corp another 50m for all their trouble? Assuming that they're even in a corp? Or they do exploration in low sec, or live in a wormhole? Right. The only reason to go to the trouble of finding PVE alts is because you can assemble a gank fleet. There's no incentive to use the war dec system, for the exact reasons you're so worried about.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-01-26 05:08:24 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Michele Bachmann wrote:
i wish i could be as nihilistic as you when it comes to these things.


It's not nihilism, it's mechanics. I'm a role-player. I would very much like characters to matter. Generally, people will do things that are to their perceived advantage, and not do things that they believe will put them at a disadvantage. More to the point, they will do things that they perceive as fun and not do things that they perceive as not fun.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
If CAS vets want to stay in CAS let them state their case to CCP, if they're already doing good things for noobs then it should be no problem for them to stay in their corp. This is not a new idea.


So your solution is to put more of a burden on the CCP Community team? I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear that. Though, to be fair, I would *love* to see it happen the other way 'round, with CCP finding and engaging helpful people and giving them an incentive to either stay in the new player corps or roll alts in them.

Michele Bachmann wrote:
If someone can figure out who those PvE alts are they are more than welcome to wardec them same as anyone


So that they can drop corp, and cost the decced corp another 50m for all their trouble? Assuming that they're even in a corp? Or they do exploration in low sec, or live in a wormhole? Right. The only reason to go to the trouble of finding PVE alts is because you can assemble a gank fleet. There's no incentive to use the war dec system, for the exact reasons you're so worried about.


So if one player's version of fun is shooting at a target of their choosing they should be barred from pursuing their fun?

CCP already finds 3rd parties and promotes them, it shouldn't be too hard for them to find some good CAS vets.

You're missing the fact that I don't care about the isk spent. I just want them to be able to spend that isk if they so choose.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#68 - 2014-01-26 05:17:59 UTC
Wardec scrubs are like the level 80 who sits outside the starting town ganking level 1's as they come out and then congratulate themselves on their 'skills' and kills.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#69 - 2014-01-26 05:19:30 UTC
Michele Bachmann wrote:
So if one player's version of fun is shooting at a target of their choosing they should be barred from pursuing their fun?


So if one players version of fun is not being shot at they should be barred from pursuing their fun?

You need to keep things balanced. You also don't seem to understand that you can NOT force people to fight.

If your plans come to fruition, some of those newbie indy corps will not logon except to load up the skill queue or they may just find something else to do for a week. A great platform for a CSM candidate to run on is, "I'll keep those filthy carebears from logging on!"

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
dilly nay
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-01-26 05:24:19 UTC
Veronica Felix wrote:
Why?... I imagine. Of course...


Did I sum you up right, OP?
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-01-26 05:26:06 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Michele Bachmann wrote:
So if one player's version of fun is shooting at a target of their choosing they should be barred from pursuing their fun?


So if one players version of fun is not being shot at they should be barred from pursuing their fun?

You need to keep things balanced. You also don't seem to understand that you can NOT force people to fight.

If your plans come to fruition, some of those newbie indy corps will not logon except to load up the skill queue or they may just find something else to do for a week. A great platform for a CSM candidate to run on is, "I'll keep those filthy carebears from logging on!"


If there's anything this thread proved is that there are numerous ways of not being shot at.

If someone pulls a wardec that's on them. Even then they are not forced to fight. I am not suggesting that people be forced to fight.

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2014-01-26 05:36:53 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So if one players version of fun is not being shot at they should be barred from pursuing their fun?

no, but in return they should not expect to have the same potential success as those who are willing to risk what they have or those who are willing to fight for success. currently the highest success can be gained dismantling starbases, reforming corp or dropping corp for many activities. this robs the players who desire opportunity to succeed to a greater degree by being bold, taking chances, making friends, playing smart or fighting for what's theirs
Michele Bachmann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-01-26 05:38:36 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So if one players version of fun is not being shot at they should be barred from pursuing their fun?

no, but in return they should not expect to have the same potential success as those who are willing to risk what they have or those who are willing to fight for success. currently the highest success can be gained dismantling starbases, reforming corp or dropping corp for many activities. this robs the players who desire opportunity to succeed to a greater degree by being bold, taking chances, making friends, playing smart or fighting for what's theirs

+1
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2014-01-26 05:46:56 UTC
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:


2. Just ewar or shoot at the RR, invoking Concord. You may now stop wasting ammo on this guy's ship and save it for his friends or any space assets. His pod does still count as a space asset.


Just BTW... Your wrong.

Neutral RR goes suspect when they help somebody. So any body can shoot at them.

It is better to have your RR in corp now like it always should have been.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Tydeth Gilitae
Magewright Artificers
#75 - 2014-01-26 06:05:14 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:


2. Just ewar or shoot at the RR, invoking Concord. You may now stop wasting ammo on this guy's ship and save it for his friends or any space assets. His pod does still count as a space asset.


Just BTW... Your wrong.

Neutral RR goes suspect when they help somebody. So any body can shoot at them.

It is better to have your RR in corp now like it always should have been.


Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you for that correction.

In that case, I redact that bit since you can just shoot them. That is much better.
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2014-01-26 06:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
I don't have sympathies to highsec carebears, however, logically, some people here are making mistakes. If it is "reasonable" or "naturely acceptable" to "buy" such "privilege" to war dec a corp, shouldn't it be reasonble for the carebears to buy "privilege" to not get deced? Or pay to get the war void?

If you emphasize on the legality brought by the money spend, then it should also be true the other way around.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#77 - 2014-01-26 06:12:42 UTC
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:


2. Just ewar or shoot at the RR, invoking Concord. You may now stop wasting ammo on this guy's ship and save it for his friends or any space assets. His pod does still count as a space asset.


Just BTW... Your wrong.

Neutral RR goes suspect when they help somebody. So any body can shoot at them.

It is better to have your RR in corp now like it always should have been.


Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you for that correction.

In that case, I redact that bit since you can just shoot them. That is much better.

That's the part where they now go dock up, reship and shoot you back
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#78 - 2014-01-26 06:22:21 UTC
Veronica Felix wrote:
In high sec, small industrial corps are war decced repeatedly for no other purpose than to cause grief. The ward deccers--if looking at their killboards are any indication--are cowards, never attacking a low sec corp, or even the more potent high sec corps.


You are right about them doing it to cause you grief.

What you are wrong about is their motivations being purely killboard padding. In fact, chances are another industrial corp is actively paying them to do this to you, in order to drive you out of the area and further their own profits. Or maybe you just pissed off someone in local.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-01-26 12:27:24 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
If people really wanted to PvP against people who can actually shoot back they can just join FW for free. Better than free, in fact, because they can actually make money off all the LP.

So in a sense OP is right about one thing: Wardecs are the sole domain of griefers, because the real PvPers - those with the spine to fight people who can fight back - are either in FW or out fighting nullsec wars.
Wow that's close minded. *sighs*

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#80 - 2014-01-26 12:36:48 UTC
Kogh Ayon wrote:
I don't have sympathies to highsec carebears, however, logically, some people here are making mistakes. If it is "reasonable" or "naturely acceptable" to "buy" such "privilege" to war dec a corp, shouldn't it be reasonble for the carebears to buy "privilege" to not get deced? Or pay to get the war void?

If you emphasize on the legality brought by the money spend, then it should also be true the other way around.



Plenty of war deccing corps in high sec will call off a war dec for the appropriate billions of isk. So you can buy your way out of a dec - it's just much more expensive (ie everything you own). But you want immunity. No. The only way to be immune is to stay docked or - not play EVE.