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Dev blog: HED-GP Technical Retrospective

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2014-01-24 18:38:49 UTC
There's been some speculation that loading inventories is server-intensive and that capitals, due to multiple inventory bays, may cause higher lag - is that correct?

Also, what sort of lag does refitting in space put on the node? Does refitting trigger the same sort of intense calculations brain in the box is intended to fix, because you've suddenly got to apply all sorts of new bonuses to new mods?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#62 - 2014-01-24 18:47:17 UTC
Get rid of the damed things already so we can go back to fighting eachother by changing doctrines.. This one weaponsystem fights all is ruining the game.. Yeah even the ratters that knows what they are doing and bitching because we call for a nerf knows they need to go.. Not to mention the impact this sentryfuzz is having on the average market..
stoicfaux
#63 - 2014-01-24 18:52:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped.

No, and no.


If they are not immobile, they still have to keep moving so that calculation is not saved at all. Why would they be given a single attack when grouped guns do not?

Grouped guns are not abstracted into a single roll of the dice because that would make WTFBBQ criticals much more common (DPS would be the same, but the probabilities of big hits and big misses would increase, which would be noticeable to statistics impaired players.)

The variations in stats between classes of drones isn't that great, unlike guns. Standard combat drones (i.e. not sentries) don't really have a huge difference in range, so generalizing the stats into one optimal+falloff isn't as jarring as say averaging the range for a blaster + railgun group. Mixing drone damage types is equivalent to mixed damage ammo types that we have now. On so on. In theory, SWAG, back of the napkin, etc., abstracting combat drones should be "easy."

Sentry drones appear to have a huge variation in optimal+falloff, at least until you take drone control range into account, meaning Bouncers/Curators/Wardens have ~60km optimals as it is. Gardes are the biggest problem and would need their stats to be refactored. Obviously, Omnis and drone range extenders would need a going over as well.


As for drone movement, just get rid of drone movement. Drones MJD to the target and then "stick" to the target (piggy back (or surf) on the time-space warping wake created by moving ships.) You could still have target speed affect the DPS of a sticky drone swam because "lore-wise," fast moving ships create rough space-time "wakes" which affects swarm targeting.



Anyway, even if drone swarms were implemented, it's still an O(N^2) problem, so the gains would be "negligible" in the computer science definition.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-01-24 18:59:46 UTC
Prior to the fight CCP had to take down G-0 (our staging) and HED. This was because they were both located on the same node. This has occurred many times and has been escalated before. Why have more nodes not been put in the reinforcement pool?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-01-24 19:25:19 UTC
"future popularity of drone-centric fleet doctrines"

Future? I'm struggling to find a doctrine for large scale fights that isn't drone based.
Cap'n Schmitty
#66 - 2014-01-24 19:35:15 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Actual work has happened since Brain in a Box was announced. I don't want to go into amazing details 'cause it could be a devblog of its own, or maybe a Fanfest presentation or something

+1 for BiaB Fanfest presentation. Make it happen.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#67 - 2014-01-24 19:35:17 UTC
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#68 - 2014-01-24 19:37:29 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I'm struggling to find a doctrine for large scale fights that isn't drone based.


We used to shoot each other with guns and missiles and fly our ships in space, anchor up and approach and orbit! Now we are wadded up in a ball and our highslots dont even have any weapons- they have drone mods Sad
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-01-24 19:38:42 UTC
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#70 - 2014-01-24 19:40:43 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..


To be clear, the majority of drones quoted in the post were sentry drones, not fighters or fighter bombers.

Also, carriers can only field 10 drones, and for most people only 9 since they havent put in the time for carrier 5.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-01-24 19:41:27 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink


Won't people send all they have to system 1 and if they win go to system 2 then 3 then whatever because they are facing smaller fleet distributed over numerous systems which can be moved to all the time thanks to power projection?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-01-24 19:42:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink


Won't people send all they have to system 1 and if they win go to system 2 then 3 then whatever because they are facing smaller fleet distributed over numerous systems which can be moved to all the time thanks to power projection?

Not if winning means you need to win all the objectives at the same time.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#73 - 2014-01-24 19:45:31 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..


To be clear, the majority of drones quoted in the post were sentry drones, not fighters or fighter bombers.

Also, carriers can only field 10 drones, and for most people only 9 since they havent put in the time for carrier 5.



Should I refer to Advanced Drone Interfacing?

Or is that still capped to 10, even with Drone Control Units?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#74 - 2014-01-24 19:46:43 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink


Won't people send all they have to system 1 and if they win go to system 2 then 3 then whatever because they are facing smaller fleet distributed over numerous systems which can be moved to all the time thanks to power projection?

Not if winning means you need to win all the objectives at the same time.



The main problem there is that a smaller group /cannot/ capture any system.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-01-24 19:47:38 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink


Won't people send all they have to system 1 and if they win go to system 2 then 3 then whatever because they are facing smaller fleet distributed over numerous systems which can be moved to all the time thanks to power projection?

Not if winning means you need to win all the objectives at the same time.


All or a majority? If all, the defending side will pile up in one system to insure they prevent a full win for the other side...
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#76 - 2014-01-24 19:47:53 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Destoya wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..


To be clear, the majority of drones quoted in the post were sentry drones, not fighters or fighter bombers.

Also, carriers can only field 10 drones, and for most people only 9 since they havent put in the time for carrier 5.



Should I refer to Advanced Drone Interfacing?

Or is that still capped to 10, even with Drone Control Units?


Hes talking about the PL slowcat which carries hundreds of sentry drones in its drone bay making it unlimited ammo/drones offensive platform + logistics in one.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#77 - 2014-01-24 19:48:17 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..


To be clear, the majority of drones quoted in the post were sentry drones, not fighters or fighter bombers.

Also, carriers can only field 10 drones, and for most people only 9 since they havent put in the time for carrier 5.


well there is also the drone mod... supercarriers can use 15 fighters

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-01-24 19:49:26 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Only having one objective to kill/protect in these sov related battles is terrible. But you can't just add more objectives in the same system because that is still the same load on on system. So the solution is to make the gates leading to the system being contested equally important. Now instead of one system trying to support thousands upon thousands of players, the weight is spread across a few systems. Each system on its own reinforced node.

Still one giant battle, but far more playable and hamster friendly. Blink


Won't people send all they have to system 1 and if they win go to system 2 then 3 then whatever because they are facing smaller fleet distributed over numerous systems which can be moved to all the time thanks to power projection?

Not if winning means you need to win all the objectives at the same time.


All at same time means defenders only go to one. The obvious adjustment is "majority of encounters" and as you said they run simultaneously. It certainly looks like a possible method for consideration. Unfortunately HED has only two gates and one is in High Sec. I still like splitting the encounter between systems. Another idea is to reduce effectiveness of large fleets, thus limiting their deployment.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2014-01-24 19:53:44 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Destoya wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
besides caps being able to field 3x's the amount drones that of any other ship which seems strange in itself ( maybe nerf down to 10 and remove drones from caps altogether fighters only since their capital weapons and all) ... perhaps another way of reducing the amount of caps on field is too make fighters require actual pilots too fly fighters/bombers...

EVE Valkyrie comes too mind here..


To be clear, the majority of drones quoted in the post were sentry drones, not fighters or fighter bombers.

Also, carriers can only field 10 drones, and for most people only 9 since they havent put in the time for carrier 5.



Should I refer to Advanced Drone Interfacing?

Or is that still capped to 10, even with Drone Control Units?

Nobody fits drone control units in fleet PVP.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Naomi Asty
Phoenix Connection
Lack of Judgement.
#80 - 2014-01-24 19:55:49 UTC
Thx for the update and the info.
Love it when you explain stuff i'm not sure about, keep it up.