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Dev blog: HED-GP Technical Retrospective

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CCP Veritas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2014-01-24 18:17:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Then if you are against any solution that changes game mechanics

That's not what I said. I'm against any solution that alters game mechanics based on what the TiDi factor is. Changes to game mechanics that do not rely on the TiDi factor are not covered by this statement.

CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online
stoicfaux
#42 - 2014-01-24 18:19:09 UTC
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#43 - 2014-01-24 18:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Ah, so when the system approach 10% TiDi, all drones recall automatically due to "system interference" which would even be true.

Would also encourage peeps to stop using those idiotic ships.


I like those ships.
Play your game and let me play mine. Find a fix that benefits all not just your self.

*Snip* Removed profanity. ISD Ezwal
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-01-24 18:20:58 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)




As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way...
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#45 - 2014-01-24 18:22:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not.

Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones.


How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too.

How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target?

It's also eliminate some AFK play...


In hed we couldn't set drone assist when turkey shooting.
It was all done manually. Got another point?
stoicfaux
#46 - 2014-01-24 18:22:26 UTC
Give drones Miniature Micro Jump Drives instead of MWDs to cut down on long range travel calculations.

Make drones out of transparent aluminium so you don't have to render them.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-01-24 18:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)




As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way...

That's not hard -- if you are, say, in a Rapier and deploy three medium drones and two light drones due to your 40 m^3 drone bandwidth, you just then control two swarms -- one medium droneswarm, one light droneswarm.

If you are a goof and deploy five distinct, separate types of drones, then good for you, and the game treats it the same it would today.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#48 - 2014-01-24 18:23:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)


Or bring sentry drones in line with other battleship weapon systems in terms of tracking, optimal, rate of fire and dps. If both sides in a fight are bringing the same thing- and literally everyone else from the alliance tournament on down to every current fleet concept in 0.0 are using the sentry drone then clearly the thing needs to raise some eyebrows.
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#49 - 2014-01-24 18:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkPanter
Leigh Akiga wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)


Or bring sentry drones in line with other battleship weapon systems in terms of tracking, optimal, rate of fire and dps. If both sides in a fight are bringing the same thing- and literally everyone else from the alliance tournament on down to every current fleet concept in 0.0 are using the sentry drone then clearly the thing needs to raise some eyebrows.


People used drakes, tengus, proteuses, gilas, oracles, zealots, nados and sooo on. Now we have something else.
Find a way AROUND it instead of NERFING it.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-01-24 18:25:54 UTC
PinkPanter wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Alicia Fermi wrote:
It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not.

Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones.


How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too.

How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target?

It's also eliminate some AFK play...


In hed we couldn't set drone assist when turkey shooting.
It was all done manually. Got another point?


If drone assist was not working, it means every single drone had to find a target by itself or wait for a direct command. All those drones then go through the whole list of ship on grid and check if they are a good target. This will add to the load. If dones were just unable to direct themself, it would mean those thousands of things in space start morking more closely to ship because the server don't "think" for them.
stoicfaux
#51 - 2014-01-24 18:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)




As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way...

Given a group of drones, calculate the average DPS and damage type(s) into one attack. This calculation is done once when the group is created, i.e. it creates a single unique drone attack instead of 5 individual drone attacks. edit: It's like weapon grouping but allows for having "different" types of guns in one group. It should work because drone differences in range and tracking are relatively minimal, so it's not like you're having to abstract a 5km blaster with a 100km railgun in a single group.

Abstracting maneuverability is a bit trickier, but leveling out drone performance (e.g. all lights travel the same speed) is one method. Giving drones a micro MJD in place of an MWD is another way.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-01-24 18:30:28 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)




As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way...

Given a group of drones, calculate the average DPS and damage type(s) into one attack. This calculation is done once when the group is created, i.e. it creates a single unique drone attack instead of 5 individual drone attacks.

Abstracting maneuverability is a bit trickier, but leveling out drone performance (e.g. all lights travel the same speed) is one method. Giving drones a micro MJD in place of an MWD is another way.





Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped.
Highfield
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#53 - 2014-01-24 18:32:27 UTC
Would stripping sentry drones from all movement capabilties (ie. turning them into deployed turrets) help solve some of the lag related to them? After all, it takes all movement calculations out of the equations while nobody is going to miss that 1m/s..
stoicfaux
#54 - 2014-01-24 18:32:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped.

No, and no.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#55 - 2014-01-24 18:33:41 UTC
Highfield wrote:
Would stripping sentry drones from all movement capabilties (ie. turning them into deployed turrets) help solve some of the lag related to them? After all, it takes all movement calculations out of the equations while nobody is going to miss that 1m/s..

You mean turn a group of sentries into a single deployable?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-01-24 18:34:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped.

No, and no.


If they are not immobile, they still have to keep moving so that calculation is not saved at all. Why would they be given a single attack when grouped guns do not?
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#57 - 2014-01-24 18:34:56 UTC
Highfield wrote:
Would stripping sentry drones from all movement capabilties (ie. turning them into deployed turrets) help solve some of the lag related to them? After all, it takes all movement calculations out of the equations while nobody is going to miss that 1m/s..


You mean so they are treated as guns?
They still need to be targetable but at least what you say makes sense :)
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#58 - 2014-01-24 18:36:15 UTC
WarFireV wrote:
Guess in the end, it was the 1000 domis that doomed CFCRUS.


make you wonder what 1000 maels would have done to the wreaking ball eh?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#59 - 2014-01-24 18:36:58 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?

Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)



Genius, wish I'd thought of that- only really works for your mobile drones that can establish an orbit, though. Sentry drones should have their speed set to 0 and only ever have a fixed position (in part to prevent the annoying behaviour of slowly drifting into POSes on a bash).
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-01-24 18:37:33 UTC
CCP Veritas wrote:
Actual work has happened since Brain in a Box was announced. I don't want to go into amazing details 'cause it could be a devblog of its own, or maybe a Fanfest presentation or something, but I spent about 6 months solid on it personally before I got promoted to technical director. Early in the process I discovered that the fundamental design of Dogma was going to get in the way of implementing BiaB, so I started rewriting that foundation. Since then we had one failed attempt to boot it up with a different team. In December we gave it another spin and I'm very happy with the composition of the new team. I believe once they've come up to speed with the system they'll be able to knock out work at a great pace and put me to shame.


This is great news. If you had to throw a wild guess at it and I know it is truly a guess. Less than a year out?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.