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Tears aside was HeD the biggest?

First post
Author
Marsha Mallow
#41 - 2014-01-22 17:14:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I never said same fight, I said the same server.

Really not sure whay you are talking about the server in a thread quite explicitly about a fight, except as a way of dodging having to reply to anyone who challenges your remarks. I'd go through and highlight some of your more amazing comments but I don't have time.

Re-writing the entire gamecode is an awesome solution though, I can see that being viable yup.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#42 - 2014-01-22 17:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
As The Only MMO to Constantly Grow Its Subscription Base Year On Year (TM) you can expect much bigger battles in the future. In another 5 years we may see 8000 or even 10000 people try to enter a system on a regular basis due to the Constant Growth Of Subscriptions. I trust the developer of The World's Only Constantly Growing MMO have a plan in mind for such growth, which is constant, so that all these new players will have a fun game experience.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#43 - 2014-01-22 19:34:11 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I never said same fight, I said the same server.

Really not sure whay you are talking about the server in a thread quite explicitly about a fight, except as a way of dodging having to reply to anyone who challenges your remarks. I'd go through and highlight some of your more amazing comments but I don't have time.
Because you want me to tell you another game where a single "fight" is the same size, but since we're talking about a whole server (since anyone else in the system not in the fight affects it) then from other games you need to look at a single server. EVE couldn't handle 2000 1v1 fights in different grids on the same system any more than it can handle a 2000 v 2000 battle because the server can only do one thing at a time.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
Re-writing the entire gamecode is an awesome solution though, I can see that being viable yup.
It's actually the only solution. Anything else will be merely a workaround. At the end of the day their issue is they need more processing power, and processors simply aren't built much more powerful than what they already have. The reason other super servers outperform is they can run potentially hundreds of different threads at any one time, thus complete all the work in parallel. 10 years ago, the way EVE did it was revolutionary, now it's not. Code has to be refreshed from time to time, that's a simple fact. They can keep working around the issue, but it's inevitable that a permanent solution will need to be developed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mario Putzo
#44 - 2014-01-22 19:56:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
I never said same fight, I said the same server.

Really not sure whay you are talking about the server in a thread quite explicitly about a fight, except as a way of dodging having to reply to anyone who challenges your remarks. I'd go through and highlight some of your more amazing comments but I don't have time.
Because you want me to tell you another game where a single "fight" is the same size, but since we're talking about a whole server (since anyone else in the system not in the fight affects it) then from other games you need to look at a single server. EVE couldn't handle 2000 1v1 fights in different grids on the same system any more than it can handle a 2000 v 2000 battle because the server can only do one thing at a time.

Marsha Mallow wrote:
Re-writing the entire gamecode is an awesome solution though, I can see that being viable yup.
It's actually the only solution. Anything else will be merely a workaround. At the end of the day their issue is they need more processing power, and processors simply aren't built much more powerful than what they already have. The reason other super servers outperform is they can run potentially hundreds of different threads at any one time, thus complete all the work in parallel. 10 years ago, the way EVE did it was revolutionary, now it's not. Code has to be refreshed from time to time, that's a simple fact. They can keep working around the issue, but it's inevitable that a permanent solution will need to be developed.


There is no other game out there at all comparable to EVE online in this regard though. I mean its neat you look at a 3.5K man fight and draw conclusions the server sucks...when 36K other people were playing the game despite the events in HED-GP.
and 2.7K of the people in HED were not inconvenienced, heck a large portion of the dreads were not inconvenienced and managed to load grid, fight and even leave.

So a couple hundred people got stuck waiting for calls to the server, so they could get the location of 10K objects before they landed....a fraction of the % of people even in the fight were impacted, and a fraction of a fraction of a % of the entire server population was impacted.

But please I would like to know what other server you are comparing to. As far as I can tell EVE is still revolutionary and the fact 2 years ago you could barely squeeze 1K dudes into a fight and today barely squeezing in 4K is a huge improvement and miles ahead of any other gaming service out there.

Come on man....the permanent solution is for the CFC to get a capital pilot who knows what they are doing within the confines of the game. If there truly was an issue why is there no N3 or PL posting regarding the integrity of the server or capability of the server. Quit being a sore loser.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#45 - 2014-01-22 22:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Mario Putzo wrote:
There is no other game out there at all comparable to EVE online in this regard though. I mean its neat you look at a 3.5K man fight and draw conclusions the server sucks...when 36K other people were playing the game despite the events in HED-GP.
and 2.7K of the people in HED were not inconvenienced, heck a large portion of the dreads were not inconvenienced and managed to load grid, fight and even leave.

So a couple hundred people got stuck waiting for calls to the server, so they could get the location of 10K objects before they landed....a fraction of the % of people even in the fight were impacted, and a fraction of a fraction of a % of the entire server population was impacted.

But please I would like to know what other server you are comparing to. As far as I can tell EVE is still revolutionary and the fact 2 years ago you could barely squeeze 1K dudes into a fight and today barely squeezing in 4K is a huge improvement and miles ahead of any other gaming service out there.

Come on man....the permanent solution is for the CFC to get a capital pilot who knows what they are doing within the confines of the game. If there truly was an issue why is there no N3 or PL posting regarding the integrity of the server or capability of the server. Quit being a sore loser.
Honestly, there's simply no point arguing this with you since you have no idea what you are talking about. EVEs sever code is ancient and in a dire need of bringing up to standard. It really doesn't matter how amazing you think it is because it give you the impression that it's doing a lot of work, it's simply not that good for a modern day system. The reason nobody else in the game is affected by the fight is because the server they are on is different. There's absolutely no difference between w players being in Jita and being in HED to 2 players on completely different servers on WoW other than the fact that they can chat, which is handles by a separate system altogether (which is why chat doesn't die when you hit tidi).

See you are automatically against me since I'm CFC, so you will never see eye to eye, but look it up. Do some research. I'm not the only one that has suggested that their code needs to be updated, hell CCP have hinted at it themselves, they've simply said it's too big a task for them to do. If that's the case, then EVEs battles can't grow any bigger than they are, so they may as well stop advertising it for that reason.

EDIT:
Just for clarity, this is some snippets of what CCP have said:
CCP Veritas wrote:
Four cores, they run way faster than they're “supposed” to. And we run four instances of the EVE process on that machine. Because the EVE software is almost entirely single threaded, it means it can really only do one thing at a time. This is due to some architectural stuff that goes way back and hopefully we'll get ahead of someday.

CCP Veritas wrote:
A lot of the hardware improvements in the industry have focused a lot on getting more cores into a blade and getting more performance that way, which as I've mentioned, EVE is not in a position to leverage due to our single-threaded architecture. So a lot of the future of this is going to come down to the projects I outlined in Fanfest, not this previous one but the one before that, that need to be optimized: the fundamental critical path systems. And then split execution into multiple threads so that we can take advantage of what server hardware is doing these days.

We're always on the lookout to buy hardware to run EVE faster and that's unfortunately not the way the industry is moving right now. It used to be increasing the clock speed on the core; Intel and AMD had a war of increasing the clock speed, and that's not where it is anymore. That's not where it's been for many years now. So we're going to have a hard time buying our way out of the problem anymore.


From here. Honestly, the amount of time they've spent writing workarounds and trying to change things to make it kinda work, they could have rewritten it by now.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-01-22 23:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Seeking out another goon tear thread.

Woohooo, lots of goon tears here.

CCP did a good job preventing your little node crash attempt.

You lost 350+ dreads because of it.

More crying is always welcome.

http://evenews24.com/2014/01/19/hed-gp-more-like-hed-gg/

Hey you could go cry on mittens forums, what did you only lose 70 dreads over there?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#47 - 2014-01-22 23:15:54 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Seeking out another goon tear thread.

Woohooo, lots of goon tears here.

CCP did a good job preventing your little node crash attempt.

You lost 350+ dreads because of it.

More crying is always welcome.

http://evenews24.com/2014/01/19/hed-gp-more-like-hed-gg/

Hey you could go cry on mittens forums, what did you only lose 70 dreads over there?
Are you really so ******** to think that a node crash attempt would be done with dreads?

Honestly, the noobs are getting dumber these days. The fact is the battle was ****, on both sides. The outcome was great for PL/N3, but the battle itself was boring as sin. This was geared up to be the biggest capital fleet fight ever, and instead the server farted a bit and gave up.

Glad to see though that you take it as an opportunity to troll about feeling good about yourself, so if that's what you need to get on by, please by all means proceed.
But CCP, fix your servers. Many of us want to be able to actually have big battles like your ads promise, even if random little forum alts don't.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-01-22 23:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Lucas Kell wrote:

Are you really so ******** to think that a node crash attempt would be done with dreads?

Honestly, the noobs are getting dumber these days. The fact is the battle was ****, on both sides. The outcome was great for PL/N3, but the battle itself was boring as sin. This was geared up to be the biggest capital fleet fight ever, and instead the server farted a bit and gave up.

Glad to see though that you take it as an opportunity to troll about feeling good about yourself, so if that's what you need to get on by, please by all means proceed.
But CCP, fix your servers. Many of us want to be able to actually have big battles like your ads promise, even if random little forum alts don't.


Epic stupid follows:

N3/PL had about 900 in system, they left room for CFC and pets to come in.

CFC dumped 1800 on the same grid, followed by another 1000 all at the same time.

We all know goon means stupid person, but really?

CFC is the one that caused their own problem.

How many dreads did you lose, ~350?

We love goon tears.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-01-23 00:02:57 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Are you really so ******** to think that a node crash attempt would be done with dreads?

Honestly, the noobs are getting dumber these days. The fact is the battle was ****, on both sides. The outcome was great for PL/N3, but the battle itself was boring as sin. This was geared up to be the biggest capital fleet fight ever, and instead the server farted a bit and gave up.

Glad to see though that you take it as an opportunity to troll about feeling good about yourself, so if that's what you need to get on by, please by all means proceed.
But CCP, fix your servers. Many of us want to be able to actually have big battles like your ads promise, even if random little forum alts don't.


Epic stupid follows:

N3/PL had about 900 in system, they left room for CFC and pets to come in.

CFC dumped 1800 on the same grid, followed by another 1000 all at the same time.

We all know goon means stupid person, but really?

CFC is the one that caused their own problem.

How many dreads did you lose, ~350?

We love goon tears.


Oh, no, the crying little spacemonkey goon pet is speechless.

Did your little propaganda spewing get blown away by the facts? They tend to do that.

Goon tears, best tears.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#50 - 2014-01-23 00:33:42 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Are you really so ******** to think that a node crash attempt would be done with dreads?

Honestly, the noobs are getting dumber these days. The fact is the battle was ****, on both sides. The outcome was great for PL/N3, but the battle itself was boring as sin. This was geared up to be the biggest capital fleet fight ever, and instead the server farted a bit and gave up.

Glad to see though that you take it as an opportunity to troll about feeling good about yourself, so if that's what you need to get on by, please by all means proceed.
But CCP, fix your servers. Many of us want to be able to actually have big battles like your ads promise, even if random little forum alts don't.


Epic stupid follows:

N3/PL had about 900 in system, they left room for CFC and pets to come in.

CFC dumped 1800 on the same grid, followed by another 1000 all at the same time.

We all know goon means stupid person, but really?

CFC is the one that caused their own problem.

How many dreads did you lose, ~350?

We love goon tears.


Oh, no, the crying little spacemonkey goon pet is speechless.

Did your little propaganda spewing get blown away by the facts? They tend to do that.

Goon tears, best tears.
AFK actually. And you're kidding, you mean we brought a force capable of defending against a super fleet to defend against a super fleet? How could we!
Seriously though, are you to sit here all night spewing out misplaced smug and childlike hate on your little forum alt? Be my guest buddy. It literally means nothing to me lol. Big smile

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-01-23 00:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Lucas Kell wrote:
AFK actually. And you're kidding, you mean we brought a force capable of defending against a super fleet to defend against a super fleet? How could we!
Seriously though, are you to sit here all night spewing out misplaced smug and childlike hate on your little forum alt? Be my guest buddy. It literally means nothing to me lol. Big smile


Yea, you do lack tactics, that's why you suck.

So you try to crash the game. How did that work out.

Goon tears, best tears.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#52 - 2014-01-23 00:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
AFK actually. And you're kidding, you mean we brought a force capable of defending against a super fleet to defend against a super fleet? How could we!
Seriously though, are you to sit here all night spewing out misplaced smug and childlike hate on your little forum alt? Be my guest buddy. It literally means nothing to me lol. Big smile
Yea, you do lack tactics, that's why you suck.

So you try to crash the game. How did that work out.

Goon tears, best tears.
My feels, much sad. :(

Seriously guy give it up. Some NPC alt too scared to post with conviction spewing propganda (not even new propganda, 0/10 for effort) and saying "tears" over and over is really not going to do much.

EDIT: Oh and fix your quote. At least work out how to use the forum properly if you are going to post so much high quality material.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-01-23 01:04:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
AFK actually. And you're kidding, you mean we brought a force capable of defending against a super fleet to defend against a super fleet? How could we!
Seriously though, are you to sit here all night spewing out misplaced smug and childlike hate on your little forum alt? Be my guest buddy. It literally means nothing to me lol. Big smile
Yea, you do lack tactics, that's why you suck.

So you try to crash the game. How did that work out.

Goon tears, best tears.
My feels, much sad. :(

Seriously guy give it up. Some NPC alt too scared to post with conviction spewing propganda (not even new propganda, 0/10 for effort) and saying "tears" over and over is really not going to do much.

EDIT: Oh and fix your quote. At least work out how to use the forum properly if you are going to post so much high quality material.


Oh, no, did someone blow up your dread?
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-01-23 03:32:37 UTC
The fleets in system should have been very much aware of how many players were present, and always need to be mindful of the limits of technology.

Another factor is the time it takes to get people into a big fight like this - not as much as it used to. Faster warp speeds on cyno ships allow the growing population of eve to converge on these massive fights much easier than ever before. Hell, a few weeks back I grabbed a 'ceptor with the intent on some KM whoring on a big nullsec fight and made the 30ish jumps to the combat site very quickly indeed. If they wanted to, all the players of eve could train for interceptors and do the same, crashing the node every time.

It is unreasonable to expect the server to be able to handle that many on one node for the foreseeable future, therefore the solution involves spreading out objectives (constellation sov perhaps) and taking steps to keep fights more localised (reducing range on jump drives etc)

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#55 - 2014-01-23 06:27:51 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Oh, no, did someone blow up your dread?
No, in fact. That was me being sarcastic about your bad attempts at trolling. Next time I'll write it in crayon for you.

Galphii wrote:
It is unreasonable to expect the server to be able to handle that many on one node for the foreseeable future, therefore the solution involves spreading out objectives (constellation sov perhaps) and taking steps to keep fights more localised (reducing range on jump drives etc)
They've considered this, but have stated quite clearly they don't think it's possible as people will still blob. They also market big fleet fights, so they don't want to lose that. brain in a box will help a bit, but they know the real solution, they need to work towards utilising modern day tech. They just need to figure out that they can't keep putting it off forever.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-01-23 07:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
To answer the original question: it depends on how you define "largest".

Going by simply ships in local, yes, 6VDT was larger. (4070 in 6VDT according to CCP Explorer compared to 3913 in HED).

If you count people on standby, people who never jumped into the fight, and related skirmishes in neighboring systems, then HED was bigger, and the biggest fight in EVE so far. (Source: what our FCs told us. If you want to believe that they intentionally lied to us in this, that's your opinion.)

In terms of total number of people involved throughout the fight (i.e. not necessarily on the field at the same moment), your guess is as good as mine. As far as I know these numbers are not published anywhere, or even gathered for all participating forces. (My guess is that HED was bigger, if you want to know.)

The HED fight also went on for twice as long as 6VDT, giving more people across different timezones a chance to participate. Source: live reports for 6VDT, 6 hours from first broadcast to conclusion; HED, 10 hours from CFC entering system to the last update, in fact lasted for another 3 hours more (source: I Was There.)



Edit: I keep hearing higher numbers for 6VDT, as high as 4300 by some people. Does anyone have a verifiable source of a bigger number than 4070? (Preferably a local screenshot or a CCP message.)

Edit 2: This dev blog specifically claims, "The highest number of players in system at one time was 4070, beating the old record of 3615 set in P-2TTL in 2010."
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-01-23 07:37:40 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
CCP needs to see more of these big fights before they can fix issues. If they asked for it and offered full reimbursement for losses, it could go a long way to sorting things out

Why should they re-emburse? The node stayed up, and it was Goons' attempt to crash the node/welping their dreds into the bubbles at close range that cost them so badly.

Seems to me that the Goons earned their losses.


The intended idea was to kill the other fleet. Sadly it was impossible. You guys who come up with these crack pot theories conveniently ignore the fact that if one side puts 1000 carriers and dreads with supercaps for logistics and titan support in a system with a timer, the opposing side needs to counter that or lose sov. Or should sov battles now be decided by the side who gets ships in system first? Which is how things will now work.

Try thinking before posting.
Prince Kobol
#58 - 2014-01-23 07:45:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Lucas, A lot of people have posted threads about why they think Eve should be completely re-written to take advantage of all the new technologies since its inception, multi core processors for example, however they have constantly been shot down and mocked, most of the times your fellow Goons.

The fact is to completely to rewrite a program like Eve will be a very long and very complex job that would tie up considerable resources for it to be done in a acceptable period of time.

Resources that CCP do not have.

If you had a better understanding of the complexities and costs involved you wouldn't talk about it like its a five minute job.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#59 - 2014-01-23 08:18:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas, A lot of people have posted threads about why they think Eve should be completely re-written to take advantage of all the new technologies since its inception, multi core processors for example, however they have constantly been shot down and mocked, most of the times your fellow Goons.

The fact is to completely to rewrite a program like Eve will be a very long and very complex job that would tie up considerable resources for it to be done in a acceptable period of time.

Resources that CCP do not have.

If you had a better understanding of the complexities and costs involved you wouldn't talk about it like its a five minute job.
I know full well it's not a five minute job (and have stated that countless times), but then neither is writing in the masses of workarounds to get around the issue. At the end of the day they need to either fix the issue, or scrap fleet battles. Realistically their base code should have been refactored as they went along, then they wouldn't be in this situation.

It's easy to say "it's too much work, we don't want to do it" but then what's the alternative? Stay on a single threaded architecture for eternity? Processors aren't going to suddenly start stepping up in clock speeds at a high rate any time soon, and EVE will continue to grow. The sooner they realise that the change is inevitable, the sooner they can stop building in workarounds and work on the solution, and the less they will have to work back out later.

EDIT: Oh and the whole EVE 2.0 ideas usually come with "yeah and a new server!" which is usually why they get mocked.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mario Putzo
#60 - 2014-01-23 08:28:52 UTC
Look kid im not automatically against you because you are CFC. I really could care less who you are with. You are nullbear and I am a carebear. So really it doesn't matter who we work for. My groups name is cooler than your groups name! so deal with it.

Fact is you could barely squeeze people into fights a few years ago...then poof Tidi became a thing and you could fit 4K and before CCP updated their hardware in like 2009 you couldn't even jump 100 dudes through a gate together without DCing.

The fact you and all your friends have stormed to the forums to complain is actually shocking. I didn't expect 4 days of different complaint threads. This is a new level of suck. Even CFC leadership admits it was there mistake that caused that to happen...did the line members not get the memo?

If the servers were such a huge issue it wouldn't be just CFC complaint threads it would be all of nullsec complaining. While there is always room for improvement the fact CCP was able to accommodate nearly 4K people into a playable environment is very impressive. Not only does it show that they care about providing that content, but that they care about improving it as well...otherwise the Jita Node wouldn't have been used in support.

Frankly i think people are just tired of the constant whine out of nullsec. All of you are whining about something. You blame Sov on CCP when there are literally thousands of systems to accomodate your 80K numbers. yet you all blob for one timer. Thats not CCP that is the lot of you. Did you know 7 fleets of 250 dudes can harass 7 systems at the same time. and that 14 fleets of 125 can do 14.

You guys are doing this to the server not CCP.

Its like -A- General Gree said. "If the node crashes we still win."

But the node didn't crash and here we 4 days worth of CFC and RUS tears.....

But do go on...I would love to hear the experienced opinion of a member of Space Monkeys Alliance.