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2014 Sov War strategy

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Plug in Baby
Family Tipes
#1 - 2014-01-20 15:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
I'm not a CFC sympathizer, in fact as a cap producer I'm pretty happy with the HED outcome. However am I correct in thinking there is no real counter to the following strategy in null sov war?

1. RF something (ideally something you want).

2. Muster 1500 drone boats (domi/slowcat) immediately after DT.

3. Deploy sentries

4. Sit AFK for x hours until the timer.

5. Kill structure

6. Watch hostiles try and load grid (or if they are clever, stay docked)

7. Tweet / Reddit AMA / Troll forums / Fap

All the while playing Planetside / DotA / Terraria etc..


I honestly can't think of how one would go about defeating this. If so it seems pretty dumb that for null warfare the best way to win largely involves a) stopping you opponents playing the game b) not even playing the game yourself.

This isn't a flame at N3/PL it seems highly effective and its pretty dumb to mock a strategy that is good because of some e-honour, its more that the game design that makes this a legitimate strategy is dumb.

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.
Dace Onio
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-01-20 15:28:07 UTC
you reap what you sow
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#3 - 2014-01-20 15:30:48 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
I'm not a CFC sympathizer, in fact as a cap producer I'm pretty happy with the HED outcome. However am I correct in thinking there is no real counter to the following strategy in null sov war?

1. RF something (ideally something you want).

2. Muster 1500 drone boats (domi/slowcat) immediately after DT.


you forgot to mention you should be N3 while doing that if you dont want to loose all your capitals.
Prince Kobol
#4 - 2014-01-20 16:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Plug in Baby wrote:
I'm not a CFC sympathizer, in fact as a cap producer I'm pretty happy with the HED outcome. However am I correct in thinking there is no real counter to the following strategy in null sov war?

1. RF something (ideally something you want).

2. Muster 1500 drone boats (domi/slowcat) immediately after DT.

3. Deploy sentries

4. Sit AFK for x hours until the timer.

5. Kill structure

6. Watch hostiles try and load grid (or if they are clever, stay docked)

7. Tweet / Reddit AMA / Troll forums / Fap

All the while playing Planetside / DotA / Terraria etc..


I honestly can't think of how one would go about defeating this. If so it seems pretty dumb that for null warfare the best way to win largely involves a) stopping you opponents playing the game b) not even playing the game yourself.

This isn't a flame at N3/PL it seems highly effective and its pretty dumb to mock a strategy that is good because of some e-honour, its more that the game design that makes this a legitimate strategy is dumb.


Simple, come up with a counter, adapt.

The same argument could be made that there is no counter to the largest coalition being able to field 1000's of subcaps.

Guess what, people adapted, a counter was created.

As for filling a system before your enemy does, this has been done countless times by a number of different alliances / coalitions, it is nothing new.

Watch Hostiles try and load grid, well if you are dumb enough to try and bridge in 700 dreads (any ship) on a grid which is already occupied by approx 2700 guys on a node which is already at max TiDi and suffering from lag you deserve everything you get.
Eryn Velasquez
#5 - 2014-01-20 16:15:01 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
I'm not a CFC sympathizer, in fact as a cap producer I'm pretty happy with the HED outcome. However am I correct in thinking there is no real counter to the following strategy in null sov war?

1. RF something (ideally something you want).

2. Muster 1500 drone boats (domi/slowcat) immediately after DT.

3. Deploy sentries

4. Sit AFK for x hours until the timer.

5. Kill structure

6. Watch hostiles try and load grid (or if they are clever, stay docked)

7. Tweet / Reddit AMA / Troll forums / Fap

All the while playing Planetside / DotA / Terraria etc..


I honestly can't think of how one would go about defeating this. If so it seems pretty dumb that for null warfare the best way to win largely involves a) stopping you opponents playing the game b) not even playing the game yourself.

This isn't a flame at N3/PL it seems highly effective and its pretty dumb to mock a strategy that is good because of some e-honour, its more that the game design that makes this a legitimate strategy is dumb.


1. Bring in numbers of worthless ships until the system is running in TiDi

2. Take 2 other fleets and burn other systems to the ground while the wrecking ball is bubbled and captured in Tidi.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#6 - 2014-01-20 16:28:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinis Deren
Plug in Baby wrote:
I'm not a CFC sympathizer, in fact as a cap producer I'm pretty happy with the HED outcome. However am I correct in thinking there is no real counter to the following strategy in null sov war?

1. RF something (ideally something you want).


How about fighting at this stage - why isn't that an option?

Quote:

2. Muster 1500 drone boats (domi/slowcat) immediately after DT.

3. Deploy sentries



Whoa there horsey! You mean to say you'll let your system lose cyno jammer coverage allowing the opposition to walk all over you even before the timers come out?

Seems like you didn't want or deserve that space anyways.

Quote:

4. Sit AFK for x hours until the timer.

5. Kill structure

6. Watch hostiles try and load grid (or if they are clever, stay docked)

blah blah blah


I honestly can't think of how one would go about defeating this. If so it seems pretty dumb that for null warfare the best way to win largely involves a) stopping you opponents playing the game b) not even playing the game yourself.

This isn't a flame at N3/PL it seems highly effective and its pretty dumb to mock a strategy that is good because of some e-honour, its more that the game design that makes this a legitimate strategy is dumb.


How about not jumping in your 1000's of sub caps onto an already stressed node? That might be a good first step.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#7 - 2014-01-20 16:32:50 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Simple, come up with a counter, adapt.

The same argument could be made that there is no counter to the largest coalition being able to field 1000's of subcaps.

Guess what, people adapted, a counter was created.

As for filling a system before your enemy does, this has been done countless times by a number of different alliances / coalitions, it is nothing new.
It's a bit new. Numbers have been growing, and we've pretty much hit the ceiling of what the servers can handle. You can now kill a node with blues, leaving no room for a counter to come in

Prince Kobol wrote:
Watch Hostiles try and load grid, well if you are dumb enough to try and bridge in 700 dreads (any ship) on a grid which is already occupied by approx 2700 guys on a node which is already at max TiDi and suffering from lag you deserve everything you get.
Dreads was the counter. Unfortunately hardware means the counter can't be deployed. Bear in mind that 6VDT had more ships in it that HED, it's only obvious with hindsight that the Jita supernode wouldn't be able to handle it.

What the OP is saying is pretty much right though. You can cripple a system with friendlies, and anyone coming in to fight you won't be able to get in, the result of which is a whole bunch of people never leaving a warp tunnel. You can "grr goons" all you want, but it doesn't suddenly make the situation good for gameplay.

What exactly would your counter have been by the way?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#8 - 2014-01-20 16:36:46 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
How about fighting at this stage - why isn't that an option?
It is. But since the battle is reliant on how long it takes to reinforce a structure, this can often be done before you get a chance. It takes like 5 minutes to ref an ihub with a large enough volume of ships.

Kinis Deren wrote:
Whoa there horsey! You mean to say you'll let your system lose cyno jammer coverage allowing the opposition to walk all over you even before the timers come out?

Seems like you didn't want or deserve that space anyways.
Cyno jammers aren't invulnerable. True story. They usually stop the small groups but do nowt for a coalition sized force.

Kinis Deren wrote:
How about not jumping in your 1000's of sub caps onto an already stressed node? That might be a good first step.
So your counter is "quit". And you don't see why maybe this is a bad situation for the game to be in?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Prince Kobol
#9 - 2014-01-20 16:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Lucas Kell wrote:


It's a bit new. Numbers have been growing, and we've pretty much hit the ceiling of what the servers can handle. You can now kill a node with blues, leaving no room for a counter to come in


CFC have done this before in the War against TEST, I have seen other alliance use the same tactic. It is nothing new.

Lucas Kell wrote:


Dreads was the counter. Unfortunately hardware means the counter can't be deployed. Bear in mind that 6VDT had more ships in it that HED, it's only obvious with hindsight that the Jita supernode wouldn't be able to handle it.

What the OP is saying is pretty much right though. You can cripple a system with friendlies, and anyone coming in to fight you won't be able to get in, the result of which is a whole bunch of people never leaving a warp tunnel. You can "grr goons" all you want, but it doesn't suddenly make the situation good for gameplay.

What exactly would your counter have been by the way?


I am not going to tell how to counter, that is down to you to figure it out. It is exactly how nobody from the CFC ever said how to counter 1000's of subcaps that you guys have fielded in the past and continue to field now.

As for filling a system with blues to the point where it is impossible get ships in due to TiDi and Lag, CFC/RUS have already done this before in this war and it worked very well in your favour, funny how you weren't complaining then.

The fact is you lost this fight for a number of reasons, none of which were down to TidI and Lag.

Mistakes were made in losing PoS's so the system could not be cyno jammed, Mistakes were made in deploying 1000's of sentry domi's in some silly attempt to try and prove a point and mistakes were made in deciding to bridge in 700 dreads on grid the same grid as 2700 guys + drones when the node was already maxed out.

Do Sov Mechanics suck hard, hell yeah

Should Sov Mechanics be reworked, hell yeah.

Do you lose fight soley because of TiDI and Lag.. not a chance.
Layla Firoue
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-01-20 17:02:50 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


It's a bit new. Numbers have been growing, and we've pretty much hit the ceiling of what the servers can handle. You can now kill a node with blues, leaving no room for a counter to come in


CFC have done this before in the War against TEST, I have seen other alliance use the same tactic. It is nothing new.

Lucas Kell wrote:


Dreads was the counter. Unfortunately hardware means the counter can't be deployed. Bear in mind that 6VDT had more ships in it that HED, it's only obvious with hindsight that the Jita supernode wouldn't be able to handle it.

What the OP is saying is pretty much right though. You can cripple a system with friendlies, and anyone coming in to fight you won't be able to get in, the result of which is a whole bunch of people never leaving a warp tunnel. You can "grr goons" all you want, but it doesn't suddenly make the situation good for gameplay.

What exactly would your counter have been by the way?


I am not going to tell how to counter, that is down to you to figure it out. It is exactly how nobody from the CFC ever said how to counter 1000's of subcaps that you guys have fielded in the past and continue to field now.

As for filling a system with blues to the point where it is impossible get ships in due to TiDi and Lag, CFC/RUS have already done this before in this war and it worked very well in your favour, funny how you weren't complaining then.

The fact is you lost this fight for a number of reasons, none of which were down to TidI and Lag.

Mistakes were made in losing PoS's so the system could not be cyno jammed, Mistakes were made in deploying 1000's of sentry domi's in some silly attempt to try and prove a point and mistakes were made in deciding to bridge in 700 dreads on grid the same grid as 2700 guys + drones when the node was already maxed out.

Do Sov Mechanics suck hard, hell yeah

Should Sov Mechanics be reworked, hell yeah.

Do you lose fight soley because of TiDI and Lag.. not a chance.


Quoting because THAT is exactly what happened!
Prince Kobol
#11 - 2014-01-20 17:05:01 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
How about fighting at this stage - why isn't that an option?
It is. But since the battle is reliant on how long it takes to reinforce a structure, this can often be done before you get a chance. It takes like 5 minutes to ref an ihub with a large enough volume of ships.

Kinis Deren wrote:
Whoa there horsey! You mean to say you'll let your system lose cyno jammer coverage allowing the opposition to walk all over you even before the timers come out?

Seems like you didn't want or deserve that space anyways.
Cyno jammers aren't invulnerable. True story. They usually stop the small groups but do nowt for a coalition sized force.

Kinis Deren wrote:
How about not jumping in your 1000's of sub caps onto an already stressed node? That might be a good first step.
So your counter is "quit". And you don't see why maybe this is a bad situation for the game to be in?


You right, cyno jammers aren't invulnerable, however 7 moons were captured.. 7.

I have no idea if there was a pos on each moon but to allow your enemy to capture 7 moons, anchor 7 pos's, arm each pos and stront them when your station is on the final rf timer.. I suppose that was down to lag as well.
Prince Kobol
#12 - 2014-01-20 17:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
misread reply and was a dumb ass.. I apologise. Big smile

Also I hate this fecking you must random amount time before you can post again...
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#13 - 2014-01-20 17:33:04 UTC
More like:

1. Kill Cyno Jammer
2. Anchor SBUs
3. Kill the next onlining cyno jammer
4. RF System
5. Kill the 3rd Cyno Jammer
6. Load in grid just after downtime
7. AFK till Ihub is out
8. RF Ihub to Armor Timer
9. Kill the 4th Cyno Jammer
10. Load in grid just after downtime
11. AFK till Station is out
12. RF Station to Armor Timer
13. Kill the 5th Cyno Jammer
14. Load in grid just after downtime
15. AFK till Ihub is out
16. Kill Ihub
17. Kill the 6th Cyno Jammer
18. Load in grid just after downtime
19. AFK till Station is out
20. Capture Station
21. Figure out a way to magically not need to load the TCU grid after station is flipped
22. Victory

So, the attacker needs to camp system from downtime until the timer is out at least 3-4 days. Meanwhile, the other side is doing nothing... yeah... I can't see any weakness in this strategy.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#14 - 2014-01-20 20:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
So if you were a really clever general and you knew that your enemy was comitted at point A, you would go and kick him in the balls at point Y in the meantime instead of hitting him force on force. Sadly New Eden is devoid of people who actually understand "strategy".
Sul Glass
Fat Dragon Mining Co.
Darwinism.
#15 - 2014-01-20 20:09:43 UTC
Dace Onio wrote:
you reap what you sow


You reap what you sov
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#16 - 2014-01-20 20:36:45 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
So if you were a really clever general and you knew that your enemy was comitted at point A, you would go and kick him in the balls at point Y in the meantime instead of hitting him force on force. Sadly New Eden is devoid of people who actually understand "strategy".
So in your mind, choosing to defend an asset is a lack of strategy? While they mashed a final timer, taking a system, we should have gone and started a timer for something we didn't want and was of no strategic importance to us? Is that essentially what you are saying?

If there were know timers, then what you are saying would be half right, instead of defending it would be a reasonable decision to counter-attack, but in EVE the timers prevent that. Sure we could have started a timer going, but what would that have accomplished? Instead, we assumed CCP would have done their job and since they were using the mega node from Jita had every expectation for a very big battle.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#17 - 2014-01-21 03:41:43 UTC
I wonder how many simultaneous attacks in different systems could have been made with 2000+ ships?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#18 - 2014-01-21 03:43:58 UTC
Bigger the blob better the job is what I have learned from PvP MMOs.

And, everybody wants to be on the winning side.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#19 - 2014-01-21 05:48:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So in your mind, choosing to defend an asset is a lack of strategy?


Trading a pawn for a queen certainly is.

Lucas Kell wrote:
While they mashed a final timer, taking a system, we should have gone and started a timer for something we didn't want and was of no strategic importance to us?


No, you should have started a timer for something that was of strategic importance to them. Wait, change that. You should have started timers on several targets that they would have to defend later.

You lose one thing, they lose two... or more. See above.



http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#20 - 2014-01-21 06:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Ptraci wrote:
So if you were a really clever general and you knew that your enemy was comitted at point A, you would go and kick him in the balls at point Y in the meantime instead of hitting him force on force. Sadly New Eden is devoid of people who actually understand "strategy".


Really?

Show us throughout history where clever Generals have only ever attacked elsewhere and never taken an opposing force head on at strength.

For each one you can demonstrate, I'll lay a bet I can show you at least 10 more where a really clever General has met an opposing force directly and won.

When it comes to war, generalisations about strategy can always be countered by specifics, because there is no single strategy that is the "cleverest".
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