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Training Order: Tengu Or Golem
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Talos DragonBorn
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-01-20 02:36:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Talos DragonBorn
So, as the title says, I'm looking to train these two ships. My question boils down to, "Which do I train first?"

Doing some rough math on training times, it will take me 50 days for a tengu (Cruiser 5, all subs 5, and t2 launchers). On the other hand, a Golem will be roughly 44 days (awu 5 and BS 5, I already have the t2 cruises).

I run in and around Caldari space and will use both primarily for mission running in high-sec.

Which would be generally considered more useful?
Desmond Strickler
#2 - 2014-01-20 02:42:51 UTC
If you will stick to primarily high sec mission running, go for the golem. However, if you wish to dip into lowsec/nullsec explo or mission running the tengu is much more versatile and less of a target for pirates/null sec residents.

[b]Part-Time Moon Bear and Full-Time Black Guy

"My other dread is a Swaglafar"[/b]
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2014-01-20 03:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Tengu-
Pros:
-faster to train
-cheaper (half the price of golem)
-is good at missions
-is good for bilitzing 1-3 missions
-is good at blitzing level 4's becase it tanks hard and moves fast
-can even solo level 5 missions
-can be virtually unprobable while being able to do missions
-is top-tier for exploration combat plexes
-is excellent for data/relic sites, hacking/combat gas sites, and is excellent for ghost sites and ghost site farming
-is good for blitzing hisec exploration plexes
-is excellent for lowsec, nullsec, and w-space PVE, including difficult exploration plexes
-can warp cloaked
-can be nullified
-can go fast and warp fast
-is an excellent probing or scout ship
-is excellent courier for high value loot
-can do ecm or RR, mostly in W-space

Golem
Pros:
-Really good at hisec level 4s
-long tractor beams
-good at shooting battleships in nullsec with torpedoes
-100% selectable damage type
-doesn't lose SP when it dies

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Talos DragonBorn
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-01-20 03:31:41 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Tengu-
Pros:
-faster to train
-cheaper (half the price of golem)
-is good at missions
-is good for bilitzing 1-3 missions
-is good at blitzing level 4's becase it tanks hard and moves fast
-can even solo level 5 missions
-can be virtually unprobable while being able to do missions
-is top-tier for exploration combat plexes
-is excellent for data/relic sites, hacking/combat gas sites, and is excellent for ghost sites and ghost site farming
-is good for blitzing hisec exploration plexes
-is excellent for lowsec, nullsec, and w-space PVE, including difficult exploration plexes
-can warp cloaked
-can be nullified
-can go fast and warp fast
-is an excellent probing or scout ship
-is excellent courier for high value loot
-can do ecm or RR, mostly in W-space

Golem
Pros:
-Really good at hisec level 4s
-long tractor beams
-good at shooting battleships in nullsec with torpedoes
-100% selectable damage type
-doesn't lose SP when it dies


Quite the list you put together there, thanks mate. O have been wanting to branch off and do stuff besides highsec missions so it might just be better to go tengu first. Cheers!
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#5 - 2014-01-20 10:04:05 UTC
I see a flaw in your calcullation. If you estimated tengu training time with all subs to V you should estimate Golem with marauders V.
Sid Crash
#6 - 2014-01-20 10:30:39 UTC
Tengu really isn't that amazing for missions because it's forced into kinetic. Navy raven > Golem makes more sense tbh.
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#7 - 2014-01-21 06:00:10 UTC
Yeah Tengu is decent at almost everything except mining maybe?!

But the Golem does something very well. Mission running.

So depends what you're looking to do first.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-21 08:46:28 UTC
There is absolutly no reason to train a golem for lvl 4 missions.

It's a fun ship, but not very efficient.


Tengu is great for blitzing missions no matter what the enemies, especialy after the warptime battleships use these days.


if you want to clean the rooms, the Raven Navy Issue and the Scorpion Navy Issue will do great or a fraction of the price.

not saying the Golem isn't a fun ship, but conserning high-sec PvE it's a expensive toy.

It has some advantages in lvl 5's though the entirse system will look at you with hungry eyes and at high end you can Run lvl 5's with a SNI as well.
Sid Crash
#9 - 2014-01-21 09:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
Mike Whiite wrote:
There is absolutly no reason to train a golem for lvl 4 missions.

It's a fun ship, but not very efficient.


Tengu is great for blitzing missions no matter what the enemies, especialy after the warptime battleships use these days.


if you want to clean the rooms, the Raven Navy Issue and the Scorpion Navy Issue will do great or a fraction of the price.

not saying the Golem isn't a fun ship, but conserning high-sec PvE it's a expensive toy.

It has some advantages in lvl 5's though the entirse system will look at you with hungry eyes and at high end you can Run lvl 5's with a SNI as well.




You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-01-21 11:14:05 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.


That isn't entirely true.

Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay, which is most comenly used in PvE.

Subsystem Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile Damage per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light missile launcher rate of fire per level
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault missile velocity per level


that means 1 bonus is kinetic. the other two are not.

wich means at level 5 you have a 37.5 rof bonus and a 50% range bonus no matter what damage type you use.

it's several times faster than the Golem on grid, warps faster than the Golem.

While Blitzing missions I can't imagion a lvl 4 mission where a golem would be faster

not to mention that the only weapon the Golem has an advantege in is the torpeado, with cruise the RNI and the SNI rival it for a fraction of the Price.

As I said before it's a fun ship but not very efficient.
Sid Crash
#11 - 2014-01-21 14:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
So you agree to losing 25% dps by not using Scourge missiles, and you're going to defend that by using :logic:, somehow? :)
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#12 - 2014-01-21 15:52:59 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:

You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.


Kinetic is actually great against everything except blood raider and sansha.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-01-21 15:55:24 UTC
If you plan on doing anything in low or null then the tengu is vastly superior.
For mission running you will either have a HM low dps tengu which is often out of range or a higher dps HAM tengu that is very often out of range. Site clearance will be much slower esp if not fighting guristas.
The golem allows rapid looting, selectable damage and everything is always in range. Tank also will not be a problem even in the toughest mission.
The MJD bonus also allows rapid movement between gates as you just need to triangulate the 2 jump solution to the next gate. do the first right away and the second after the rats are dead to land close to zero on the next gate.
I would pick a BS every time for lvl 4's and a tengu every time for null exploration sites.
Doing high sec lvl 4s in a tengu is not a good idea imo.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2014-01-21 16:04:45 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
For mission running you will either have a HM low dps tengu which is often out of range or a higher dps HAM tengu that is very often out of range.


for HAMs, intercalcated nanofibers + mwd is nice. Fuel catalyst + AB is never really needed for missions imo.
HML scourge fury tengu gets mid 600s dps at long range and decent application. This is lower than a well-fit, well-skilled battleship, but in exchange you get sustainable tankiness and speed. Makes the tengu more suitable as a blitzer than a 'kill everything and loot' ship.

Quote:
Site clearance will be much slower esp if not fighting guristas.


nonsense.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sid Crash
#15 - 2014-01-21 17:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
Batelle wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:

You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.


Kinetic is actually great against everything except blood raider and sansha.


Stop being dumb, you lose some 25-30% applied dps against many factions and way more against Sansha/BR.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#16 - 2014-01-21 18:00:21 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:

You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.


Kinetic is actually great against everything except blood raider and sansha.


Stop being dumb, you lose some 25-30% applied dps against many factions and way more against Sansha/BR.


Name one faction where you lose that much that is not sansha/br. Against angel you lose 25% at most ONLY vs a few of the elite cruisers. Damage loss due to resistances is under 20% for all angel battleships.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-01-21 18:02:12 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
So you agree to losing 25% dps by not using Scourge missiles, and you're going to defend that by using :logic:, somehow? :)



by the fact , I'm faster at the mission site.I lock faster, reach gates faster, loose less of this amaizing dps on lost vollies,destroy smaller ships faster get back to the agents faster.
Battle BV Master
Bacon Never Dies
#18 - 2014-01-21 18:18:53 UTC
People that will defend their Tengu till their death will always be around (I know I've shot so many out of their great Tengu's lol) easiest T3 to kill by far.

Anyways thats PVP, in PVE it does good. It really does, but anyone that thinks there are not better ships for LvL4s really doesn't understand this game.

Since I actually care what ship gets it done the best, perfect skills subcap so race or weapon choice doesnt matter for me. I've tried 'all' that people call the best. Incl a 3 or 4bil Tengu, it does not beat many other things I own in most missions (room clearing, not blitzing)

These things include, anything with drones really (Domi, Navy Domi, Rattle) most Mauraders (Golem, Vargur, Paladin but only in Amarr space) and the 2 that hack it based on guns and speed Mach and Vindi.

Plus probably that new Sisters BS thats coming.

Anyone that calls the Tengu good has a point, anyone that calls it easy has a point, anyone that says it blitzes well has a point. Anyone that calls it the best, at anything really is out of their freaking mind Big smile
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#19 - 2014-01-21 18:27:53 UTC
Battle BV Master wrote:
Anyways thats PVP, in PVE it does good. It really does, but anyone that thinks there are not better ships for LvL4s really doesn't understand this game.


Well, good thing I didn't say that then. I said this:

Quote:
Anyone that calls the Tengu good has a point, anyone that calls it easy has a point, anyone that says it blitzes well has a point. Anyone that calls it the best, at anything really is out of their freaking mind Big smile


And you should still train tengu before golem.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sid Crash
#20 - 2014-01-21 18:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
Batelle wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:

You might want to get some facts in your opinions. Tengu is kenetic only and that means unless it fights Guristas it's going to lose applied dps due to doing the wrong damage type. Also, its realistic dps isn't amazing to begin with. A Cruise golem (as I found out myself) is actually pretty darn good, can do all damage types and has drones to deal with ****** targets missiles would suck against.


Kinetic is actually great against everything except blood raider and sansha.


Stop being dumb, you lose some 25-30% applied dps against many factions and way more against Sansha/BR.


Name one faction where you lose that much that is not sansha/br. Against angel you lose 25% at most ONLY vs a few of the elite cruisers. Damage loss due to resistances is under 20% for all angel battleships.


Here's all of them:

Angel (15-20%), elite Angel (15-20%), BR (40-50%), elite BR (30-50%), R drones(~40%), elite R drones (~30%), Sansha (40-50%), elite Sansha (40-50%), Amarr empire (40-50%), Khanid (~50%), Minmatar rep (~15%)

This is where kin is an advantage:

Guristas, elite Guristas, serpentis, elite Serpentis, Caldari state, Gall Fed, Mordu


So ALL of the top ones is where a kinetic bonused missile ship is bad and unless it's Minnie based it'll be REALLY bad and even then it's some 15-20%. So yes, choosing a kinetic only ship means that in a large % of the possible cases you'll lose out anywhere from 15-50% applied dps. So people going "kinetic is fine" just aren't correct.
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