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Downside of Mobile Tractor Units in missions
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Qalix
Long Jump.
#21 - 2014-01-20 17:39:25 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
/shrug

All I can go on is the fact the thread was moved to issues and workarounds, there have been numerous reimburses, several people (even people in favour of it) have had GM responses saying it is bugged (what is interesting is no-one, to my knowledge, has been told it is working as intended). These lend weight to it not working as intended, to my mind at least.

Personally, my opinion was and still is that it was an unforeseen/unintended consequence of the change, the drone AI is too flaky to be reliable in conjunction with a MTU ('passive' or not). I think the overall effects are well within the spirit of EVE but the particular implementation feels a bit iffy. I may be wrong and yes the evidence is anecdotal - but there's a lot of it and not a lot against it.

Also, it has nothing, nothing to do with the safety system - I've no idea why people think it does.

In the end, I don't suppose I really care much, I don't use the units, too slow Smile

Why don't you just give us the link? No one seems to know WTF you're talking about.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-01-20 18:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Because I didn't think it was hard.....

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=306780&find=unread


The whole discussion is like Groundhog Day.

Whatever, I'm out.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#23 - 2014-01-20 19:54:11 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Because I didn't think it was hard.....

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=306780&find=unread


The whole discussion is like Groundhog Day.

Whatever, I'm out.

You can link to the specific post, you know. Who wants to read 12 pages of crap? If you're going to use something as proof, don't be surprised when people challenge you to produce the goods.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#24 - 2014-01-20 19:57:12 UTC
The green safety only prevents YOU from committing an ILLEGAL act. Shooting someone, or having your drones aggress someone who has gone suspect is not an ILLEGAL act.

Drones set to aggressive will aggress any player who has aggressed you or your property. An MTU belongs to you. If a player comes in and shoots your MTU, any drones set to aggressive will engage that player.

Seriously, people need to learn the aggression mechanics.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-01-20 20:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
1) I usually post from a phone and that's a nightmare and 2) The whole thread offers context and other bits and pieces such as the thread being relocated there and peoples beliefs and posting history.

You don't need to take my word for it, or even read a single post: I couldn't give a rats ass if you do, or do not Smile
Qalix
Long Jump.
#26 - 2014-01-20 20:22:58 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
1) I usually post from a phone and that's a nightmare and 2) The whole thread offers context and other bits and pieces such as the thread being relocated there and peoples beliefs and posting history.

You don't need to take my word for it, or even read a single post: I couldn't give a rats ass if you do, or do not Smile

If that were true, you wouldn't post at all.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#27 - 2014-01-20 20:36:22 UTC
Sar Hobonim wrote:

Mission in 0.7 security system, Safety set to green. Drones set to aggressive. In mission.

In comes another player. Shoots my MTU which causes my drones to aggress him.

Suddenly PVE becomes PVP and I lose my Golem.


Well it was mostly the same back in the days before the safety settings. People did simply did loot a wreck to draw agro and get close to the drones. Btw the safety setting isn't even flawed since it prevents you from flagging yourself to everybody, what you don't do if you attack a flagged player(you only flag yourself towards him).

The safest thing is simply to pull back your drones if another player visits you. Another very good option is to set the drones on passive once and for all and key bind a key for the drones to engage(I used F9 back in the days, nowadays G8 key on my G700 mouse). That might take a little while to get used to it, but it is a lot safer and most of the time more efficient since you completely avoid split dps with the drones and get full control over them.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-01-20 20:49:11 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.


Because you have given them the command to assist someone. They will continue to assist until you tell them to stop.


That's the point, the person being assisted has stopped firing. The drones do not. Try it.

Unless you're saying they should continue to free-fire...in which case....on what targets, why and why then is there a guard setting at all? Why wont they engage immediately on the assist command but they need the person to open fire - but continue to free fire after that first target is down and the person being assisted has stopped shooting?


Are the drones of the assisted person still attacking? I use drone assist all the time & have not come accross this issue you seem to be having difficulty with.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-01-20 21:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.


Because you have given them the command to assist someone. They will continue to assist until you tell them to stop.


That's the point, the person being assisted has stopped firing. The drones do not. Try it.

Unless you're saying they should continue to free-fire...in which case....on what targets, why and why then is there a guard setting at all? Why wont they engage immediately on the assist command but they need the person to open fire - but continue to free fire after that first target is down and the person being assisted has stopped shooting?


Are the drones of the assisted person still attacking? I use drone assist all the time & have not come accross this issue you seem to be having difficulty with.


I'm not having difficulty because I don't use the units. Also because I use guard because it's faster and needs no locking so is wonderful to stomp EWAR

I'll test this tonight and confirm. I couldnt honestly say for sure.

Edit: They kept firing, assising a gunboat with none of its own drones out. They shot the initial target as the mach did, the machs guns then fell silent - they then shot ships aggressing the mach. Later, the drones caught their own aggro and returned fire too. Drones definately set to passive.
Sar Hobonim
Freighter Building Indy 2012 corp
#30 - 2014-01-20 23:14:02 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Safety set to green.


Safety=green doesn't mean no PVP. The safety exists to keep you from ending up on the wrong side of crimewatch. Legal targets (such as someone who shoots your MTU) will always be shootable regardless of the setting of your safety.

This is not a bug with the safety. Or particularly a bug with drones. When someone intrudes on your mission, its a good idea to scoop em or set them passive.

What did you get attacked by that was able to kill your golem?



Ishtar with Garde II's
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-01-21 10:28:16 UTC
No mention of any change to this for Rubicon 1.1. CCP is reimbursing people but this may well be out of pity. There are pilots that do this full time and to my knowledge no one from CCP has told them to stop. As much as I like PVP and even occasional ganking this seems to be a bad feature. Basically you're tricking the system to allow you to get a limited engagement timer.

Maybe this is "Working as intended" because CCP does promote piracy and ganking as a way to get subscribers. Eve is the only game I know that not only allows but encourages you to grief other players. The evil side of me likes this sometimes Twisted
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-21 10:33:57 UTC
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Sar Hobonim wrote:
Safety set to green.


Safety=green doesn't mean no PVP. The safety exists to keep you from ending up on the wrong side of crimewatch. Legal targets (such as someone who shoots your MTU) will always be shootable regardless of the setting of your safety.

This is not a bug with the safety. Or particularly a bug with drones. When someone intrudes on your mission, its a good idea to scoop em or set them passive.

What did you get attacked by that was able to kill your golem?


Ishtar with Garde II's

It's not hard to kill a PVE fitted ship with a PVP ship fitted for that purpose. You fit PVE ships for DPS and just enough tank for the rats. Even ships that are "noob tanked" will go down if you neut their cap.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#33 - 2014-01-21 11:01:36 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:

Before, no one could aggress you if you didn't commit illegal acts, without concord intervening.





Uh, yes they could. You shoot someone they get to shoot back. How long have you been playing EVE??
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#34 - 2014-01-21 11:06:43 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
1) I usually post from a phone and that's a nightmare and 2) The whole thread offers context and other bits and pieces such as the thread being relocated there and peoples beliefs and posting history.

You don't need to take my word for it, or even read a single post: I couldn't give a rats ass if you do, or do not Smile




There are no GM nor CCP employees that have posted in that thread. Put up or shut up.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#35 - 2014-01-21 15:39:10 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Also, passive is bugged. Passive drones don't stay passive on assist.


Because you have given them the command to assist someone. They will continue to assist until you tell them to stop.


That's the point, the person being assisted has stopped firing. The drones do not. Try it.

Unless you're saying they should continue to free-fire...in which case....on what targets, why and why then is there a guard setting at all? Why wont they engage immediately on the assist command but they need the person to open fire - but continue to free fire after that first target is down and the person being assisted has stopped shooting?


Are the drones of the assisted person still attacking? I use drone assist all the time & have not come accross this issue you seem to be having difficulty with.


I'm not having difficulty because I don't use the units. Also because I use guard because it's faster and needs no locking so is wonderful to stomp EWAR

I'll test this tonight and confirm. I couldnt honestly say for sure.

Edit: They kept firing, assising a gunboat with none of its own drones out. They shot the initial target as the mach did, the machs guns then fell silent - they then shot ships aggressing the mach. Later, the drones caught their own aggro and returned fire too. Drones definately set to passive.


It doesn't matter if you had your drones set to passive. You assisted them to another player, and when he shot at the griefer; the drones automatically attacked too. Drones that are assisted to another player do not require that player to have dones out. The drones automatically aggro anything that player aggresses. Using guns or drones isn't the only way to aggress another player.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2014-01-21 16:32:38 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:

Before, no one could aggress you if you didn't commit illegal acts, without concord intervening.





Uh, yes they could. You shoot someone they get to shoot back. How long have you been playing EVE??


And you can't shoot at them without them without concord intervening, unless they committed illegal acts.

But I should have been more precise: "Before, no one could aggress you if you didn't commit illegal acts *or aggress them*, without concord intervening."

You may reply that the drones are aggressing them... but that is only after they have aggressed you.


Before, no one could aggress you if you didn't commit illegal acts or aggress them. It required a conscious deliberate decision to aggress them without concord intervening.
Now Drones (and again, won't this work with FOF missiles too?) will auto aggress in situations where concord will not intervene.

I suppose there is a fuzzy line between what is emergent gameplay, and an exploit. Both involve gameplay not intended by the developer.

CCP clearly intended for these structures to be attackable, but like a bug or exploit, it may have unintended consequences.

CCP has never expressed any view that would imply they intended to allow drones to automatically start limited engagements without concord intervention (something that was previously not possible).

Therefore, this would appear to be an unintended consequence, and very likely an exploit.

The lack of CCP action to declare it so does not mean that it isn't. Many previous exploits were used for at least this long before CCP declared them an exploit.


In the meantime, don't set your drones to aggressive, and accept that your drones will not fire when you get hit by E-war that prevents you from targeting, also be careful with FOF missiles.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-01-21 16:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Estella Osoka wrote:
It doesn't matter if you had your drones set to passive. You assisted them to another player, and when he shot at the griefer; the drones automatically attacked too. Drones that are assisted to another player do not require that player to have dones out. The drones automatically aggro anything that player aggresses. Using guns or drones isn't the only way to aggress another player.



You miss the point, or it is unclear.

1) Passive drones [Drones are idle]
2) Assist target [Drones are idle]
3) Target fires [Drones are active]
4) Target CEASES fire, it's target is dead.

Expected outcome here at this point [Drones are idle] until the person they are assisting shoots again...except they're not - the drones KEEP shooting, even though the person whom they were assisting has stopped firing and it's target is dead. They shoot people aggressing the other ship, they shoot things aggressing them. They are anything but passive.

Drone assist is working more like "guard", which it shouldn't be.

I'm not talking about shooting another player [and being surprised the drones 'assist'] specifically here - I'm talking about the general behaviour of passive drones and the assist command.

I would expect (and it is a reasonable assumption considering the existence of the GUARD command) that passive drones set to assist ONLY open fire at targets the 'assistee' is shooting at and when the 'assistee' is not shooting (and it's target is dead), neither are the drones.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#38 - 2014-01-21 20:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Estella Osoka
Even if the person stops firing at the target, if the target is still alive; the drones will continue to agress until the target is dead or recalled by the owner. The person doesn't have to just shoot the target, agression can come from using a web, target painting, sensor damping, etc. Any use of an offensive mod on the target causes aggression.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2014-01-21 21:00:16 UTC
The target was dead, I don't know how I can make that any clearer.

The drones proceeded to shoot OTHER things aggressive either them or the assistee with no further action taken by EITHER pilot.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-01-21 22:52:35 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The target was dead, I don't know how I can make that any clearer.

The drones proceeded to shoot OTHER things aggressive either them or the assistee with no further action taken by EITHER pilot.


Maybe it was a zombie ship? Big smile

One day CCP will get drone mechanics right.... Okay maybe not but it's a good dream Lol
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