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HED-GP Reinforced Node. Good job CCP. 3,900+ in Local.
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Qsadish
Colour out of Space
#121 - 2014-01-19 19:20:29 UTC
Almethea wrote:


stop blaming ccp, the code arent the problem it's only how you play.



FFS IT's how this game is MEANT to be played
in its core design
Qsadish
Colour out of Space
#122 - 2014-01-19 19:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Qsadish
Walextheone wrote:
To all you who are complaining, a lot of AAA games really have a hardcap of 64 players. 4000 players are pretty extreme and no other game seems to be able to cope with that many


So they should CAP it if they can't handle such numbers
but they encourage it instead
i won't be surprised if after this fight we'll see another advertizing blog about records made of peope/capitals/whatever involved like that "battle of asakai" thing
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#123 - 2014-01-20 00:02:40 UTC
Kappy Ukap wrote:
Walextheone wrote:
To all you who are complaining, a lot of AAA games really have a hardcap of 64 players. 4000 players are pretty extreme and no other game seems to be able to cope with that many.

The code isn't not much of a problem, it's the hardware, even when using experimental overclockecked CPUs there is a cap.

Some says a multlithreaded setup up would raise the bars even higher, but at this point is pure speculation on how much it would really help.


Big kudos to CCP


True, EVE is the only game that can handle such high amounts of players at one area like this. It's surprising how it can even handle 4000 players without crashing or freezing in the first place.
I'm sorry but do you call everything moving at 10% of it's normal speed "handling it".

.*. A quick breakdown of how it went for me (and around 1000 others with me)

11.45 pm - Big Fight in HED - all caps get in fleet

Arrow 45 mins to undock

Arrow sit on undock 1 hour (can't jump yet, tidi is so bad can't get cynos setup)

Message from ccp - server is shutting down in 15 mins to reinforce the node, (we haven't got to the fight yet)

Arrow Dock just before reset

Server reset; (good job there ccp, only took a few mins for server to go back up)

Arrow 45 mins to log in (some took over 2 hours to get back in after node was reinforced)

Arrow Get back in fleet, Undock (not too bad only took 15 mins, with a little over 1200 in local)

Arrow Cynos up - carriers jump to X and dock. (fast jump no tidi here, yet. we just arrived)

Arrow 20 mins later, fleet is in staging and ready to go.

Arrow Undock prepare to jump - we are going in, carriers light cynos when you land so dreads can jump.

Arrow 3 hours later - no cyno lit - still sitting on undock.. I was told later cynos were being lit but the 300+ left in system could not see them.

Attention Booted from server, can't log back in (go to bed, is now 5am)


IMO; current system can not handle these mass player battles to a point where the game is playable (not even close to fun)
Solution; Create alternatives Might be somewhere to start *there could even be an objective attached to the outcome of this type of battle. ie; winner gets to take sov of 123-xyz,

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#124 - 2014-01-20 00:21:48 UTC
Qsadish wrote:
Almethea wrote:


stop blaming ccp, the code arent the problem it's only how you play.



FFS IT's how this game is MEANT to be played
in its core design


Problem is, when the "core design" was drawn, CCP probably didn't even envision 4k clients being connected to the same node as something that would ever happen.
Qsadish
Colour out of Space
#125 - 2014-01-20 00:36:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Qsadish wrote:
Almethea wrote:


stop blaming ccp, the code arent the problem it's only how you play.



FFS IT's how this game is MEANT to be played
in its core design


Problem is, when the "core design" was drawn, CCP probably didn't even envision 4k clients being connected to the same node as something that would ever happen.


Sooooo maybe they should change it now

or wait

Let's better have some more mobile structures
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#126 - 2014-01-20 01:25:50 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:

Okay here's the plan guys: We completely **** on all strategic advantages you've built for yourself while simultaneously making the ONLY way to win be 100% limited engagements which will invariably turn into mirror matches until one side gets enough wife aggro to stop playing for a week.
Do you have a better idea??
If it takes wife aggro to determine the outcome of a battle - that may be preferable to the current state of things. Plus if your going to get wife aggro for being involved in an arena fight (you die your out of the fight unless you go ready up and get into the support fleet) Are you not going to get it by sitting in a system in tidi for 10 or 12 hours?

When these fights are organised by the powers to be, both sides are well aware of the limits the servers will carry BUT still get as much in system as possible. Reasoning - if we have 1200 ships in here and grid loaded we have a far better chance of success. This is very true, problem is if A have 1200 ships in system B is going to bring 1500 or 2000 to increase their chance of success (server is in trouble here already) now A see they are outnumbered and may lose home field advantage (50 titans, 200 supers, 300 dreads and carriers, + subcap support ain't enough, we need more) so they call for reinforcements. Now we have over 4000 in a system (which in reality, with minimum Tidi, is designed for a maximum of 1000)

Outcome - many many disappointed players (some who think it is good, less who think it is ok, a LOT more who don't care either way because, "they were there")

***The arena can be any size, 1000k was just an example, it could be the size of a system. Even with a 1000k grid, if FC's can't come up with a strategy to fight on it, maybe they need new FC's. Most of these mega fights are within a few hundred k's, 1000k gives room for strategies.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sarah Nahrnid
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2014-01-20 02:21:05 UTC
Odet wrote:
1,564 people in local. Node bouncing between 96%-68% TIDI and at some point reached 100%. Good job CCP, I'd say that's progress, from the days in 2003 I remember where 20 vs 20 almost killed the server.

Kudos CPP.Pirate

http://www.twitch.tv/sutonimh

UPDATE: Local @ 3,515 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,730 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,842 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,927 with 10% TIDI



^ This!

My hat is definitely off to CCP. Eve is literally the only game where we can do this with stability.
I'm patient, I can deal with TiDi easily.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2014-01-20 02:24:47 UTC
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Odet wrote:
1,564 people in local. Node bouncing between 96%-68% TIDI and at some point reached 100%. Good job CCP, I'd say that's progress, from the days in 2003 I remember where 20 vs 20 almost killed the server.

Kudos CPP.Pirate

http://www.twitch.tv/sutonimh

UPDATE: Local @ 3,515 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,730 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,842 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,927 with 10% TIDI



^ This!

My hat is definitely off to CCP. Eve is literally the only game where we can do this with stability.
I'm patient, I can deal with TiDi easily.

You know as well as I do that despite 10% tidi it was not stable.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lucas Rutherford
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2014-01-20 02:33:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Odet wrote:
1,564 people in local. Node bouncing between 96%-68% TIDI and at some point reached 100%. Good job CCP, I'd say that's progress, from the days in 2003 I remember where 20 vs 20 almost killed the server.

Kudos CPP.Pirate

http://www.twitch.tv/sutonimh

UPDATE: Local @ 3,515 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,730 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,842 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,927 with 10% TIDI



^ This!

My hat is definitely off to CCP. Eve is literally the only game where we can do this with stability.
I'm patient, I can deal with TiDi easily.

You know as well as I do that despite 10% tidi it was not stable.


It was actually stable. Module lag != Unstable. Your commands go through .. hence being stable. You have obviously never fought battles pre-TIDI.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#130 - 2014-01-20 04:15:24 UTC
Lucas Rutherford wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sarah Nahrnid wrote:
Odet wrote:
1,564 people in local. Node bouncing between 96%-68% TIDI and at some point reached 100%. Good job CCP, I'd say that's progress, from the days in 2003 I remember where 20 vs 20 almost killed the server.

Kudos CPP.Pirate

http://www.twitch.tv/sutonimh

UPDATE: Local @ 3,515 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,730 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,842 with 10% TIDI
UPDATE: Local @ 3,927 with 10% TIDI



^ This!

My hat is definitely off to CCP. Eve is literally the only game where we can do this with stability.
I'm patient, I can deal with TiDi easily.

You know as well as I do that despite 10% tidi it was not stable.


It was actually stable. Module lag != Unstable. Your commands go through .. hence being stable. You have obviously never fought battles pre-TIDI.
Of course it was stable, the below quote indicates that well.
Quote:
Infinity Ziona
Yeah your dreads were dying before they loaded in...

Being shot off the field before loading in is EXACTLY how it should be

Is that a lag indicator?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2014-01-20 04:19:10 UTC
Lucas Rutherford wrote:
It was actually stable. Module lag != Unstable. Your commands go through .. hence being stable. You have obviously never fought battles pre-TIDI.

A lot of commands were not going through. Siege modules refused to deactivate even after several hours (and dragging other modules on top of them). People were stuck in jump tunnels for hours. For many the grid never loaded. On and on and on. That's not stability.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Almethea
Trans Stellar Express
#132 - 2014-01-20 05:49:07 UTC
Qsadish wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Qsadish wrote:
Almethea wrote:


stop blaming ccp, the code arent the problem it's only how you play.



FFS IT's how this game is MEANT to be played
in its core design


Problem is, when the "core design" was drawn, CCP probably didn't even envision 4k clients being connected to the same node as something that would ever happen.


Sooooo maybe they should change it now

or wait

Let's better have some more mobile structures



let's remove sov?

there's so many thing to fix in eve.... and they fix forum ! GJ! but ok i like it !

CCP Fozzie : AFK cloaking, however, is an entirely social form of power
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#133 - 2014-01-20 06:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ImYourMom
kinda feel really sorry for SoCo, they got royally screwed on that. CCP should of reimbursed those loses. Could of been the best fight in eve ever. Well Done CCP - you just will never listen and sort this out will you. ever? how many times do we need to have this conversation, yet CCP continue to turn a blind eye and do nothing?

TiDi is NOT the answer or the solution. Its just as bad as years ago tbh. OK it might be fine for small quick engagments, but for larger fleets long or short its still useless. Waiting 30/50 mins for 'something to happen' only to realise you were actually dead within the first 5 mins isnt really a solution is it or 'better than it was before' People stuck in warp for an hour is just ridiculous and yet CCP will not do anything to sort it out. I would be feeling pretty embarassed and red faced if i was in the CCP office right now. But im sure they are happily getting along with their day, not giving a sh1t as usual.
Perhaps you should all go on strike for a day or protest and get listen to.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-01-20 06:52:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And before someone says "get faster processors" it should also be mentioned that we've pretty much reached the limit as far as single-core performance.

From here CCP has two options, one of which they're taking

The first approach is, as mentioned above, to completely rewrite all of EVE from the ground up, in a language other than Stackless Python, to exploit the powers of parallel computing. Some game mechanics would probably have to change for this to happen, invariably some bugs will get fixed while many, many more would be introduced, and it would be a massive undertaking for an extended period of time that would completely stagnate the game in the interim. This would also require them to essentially build an entirely new server, which would itself be an expensive undertaking.

The other approach, which CCP is taking, is to make extensive optimizations to various individual parts of the program. CCP's server load balancing algorithm, Brain in a Box, and other related projects are all a part of this effort. It requires significantly less programming effort, most likely won't introduce nearly as many new bugs (some are to be expected), and the CCP doesn't have to stop iterating on the actual game for this to happen.

Yes, but... i think in the long run they will be forced to go for the first approach anyway. The second solution buys time for sure, but in the end it's unavoidable. The way hardware development currently goes, there probably won't even be anything available that isn't based on parallel computing anymore, 5 or at most 10 years from now.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2014-01-20 08:31:04 UTC
Qsadish wrote:
Walextheone wrote:
To all you who are complaining, a lot of AAA games really have a hardcap of 64 players. 4000 players are pretty extreme and no other game seems to be able to cope with that many


So they should CAP it if they can't handle such numbers
but they encourage it instead
i won't be surprised if after this fight we'll see another advertizing blog about records made of peope/capitals/whatever involved like that "battle of asakai" thing

Why should they cap it? And the main reason they can't cap it is not mechanics it's that the players will then use the cap to a) prevent invasions of systems by filling them up b) prevent defences of systems by filling them up c) any other number of possible exploits by whatever means necessary d) whine incessantly that they can't out blob the other guy.

No matter what CCP does and has done the players are screwing up by overloading, over blobbing.

Having said that you also can't blame the players, there is no honor in EvE, if party A decides they will not overload and only bring 500 party b will bring 2500. If party a doesn't exploit a cap, party b will exploit the cap.

Any player who tries to help not feck the system will be wiped out by those who do feck it.

The only workable cap based system might be a CCP and player honor system where party a and party b advises CCP of a fight, CCP reinforces the node, players register there fleets FCs with CCP, in the order of which they want them introduced into battle and CCP filters those fleets in based on load and ratio of sides. But it's pretty gamey.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Puer Servus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2014-01-20 08:35:32 UTC
Don't worry guys, CCP Veritas will fix the lag!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcEUB6h4Br0&feature=player_detailpage#t=434

\o/ Projects Brain in a Box and Destiny Dispatch \o/
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#137 - 2014-01-20 09:29:18 UTC
Puer Servus wrote:
Don't worry guys, CCP Veritas will fix the lag!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcEUB6h4Br0&feature=player_detailpage#t=434

\o/ Projects Brain in a Box and Destiny Dispatch \o/
Looks good but I'm not a young man and hope I live long enough to see it happen.

Maybe if we didn't keep getting new deployable structures and over heating mechanics (which will only mean more server calls during fights), more time could be spent fixing existing problems?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Findail
Quid Plorus
#138 - 2014-01-20 10:31:53 UTC
The capping suggestion has merit...

Not a hard cap, but a points based cap could work. The code is already tried & tested (alliance tournaments)

Scale it up for system-wide, that the nodes can handle.
Then we still get decent fights that have greater emphasis on strategy rather than numbers with little to no lag.

Big smile
Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#139 - 2014-01-20 10:56:17 UTC
great job ccp, thanks for keeping the node alive, it's come a long way in the last few years.
Signal11th
#140 - 2014-01-20 14:42:46 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
great job ccp, thanks for keeping the node alive, it's come a long way in the last few years.



Personally I would rather it just crash like in the old days so at least I can go and do something with my life instead of sitting around for hours wondering if or when my machine is doing anything...


Really anyone who thinks this sort of thing is to be applauded is just prolonging the time it takes CCP to actively do something worthwhile on the subject.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!