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[Rubicon 1.1] Interceptor Agility Tweak

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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#61 - 2014-01-16 20:43:32 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
The problem with interceptors is their interdiction nullification, not their agility. Give them their agility back and remove their bubble immunity.


QFT. I fly interceptors to tackle bad guys, not as a T2 shuttle. You are hurting the combat strengths of this ship class so that people can warp gate-to-gate with complete impunity.

You are just being stubborn and refusing to admit that your first idea (nullification) was dumb.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#62 - 2014-01-16 20:49:07 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
The problem with interceptors is their interdiction nullification, not their agility. Give them their agility back and remove their bubble immunity.


QFT. I fly interceptors to tackle bad guys, not as a T2 shuttle. You are hurting the combat strengths of this ship class so that people can warp gate-to-gate with complete impunity.

You are just being stubborn and refusing to admit that your first idea (nullification) was dumb.

It doesn't even fit into the ******* lore. Big fanfare about Guristas getting wtfpwned by cloaky-nulli tengus that caught them off-guard using never before seen technologies.... erm.... they never saw an interceptor before?
ZheoTheThird
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-01-16 22:29:28 UTC
Atara Thalia wrote:
Otherwise unkillable nullsec ratters? What crack are you smoking? VNI's and Ishtars kit out for tanking Gurista's (which is what you mostly find in goonspace) have huge vulnerabilities towards many things. This nerf just means TEST can't run around with an uncatchable 20m isk ship blowing up 100-200m ratting ships while laughing at 30 man sensor boosted gatecamps and roaming gangs trying to catch them. I'm sorry, but if an interceptor specifically warps right into scram range of my sensor boosted assault frigate or counter interceptor, I should have more than a 1 in 20 chance of catching you. Right now, even with a ship that has a 1s lock time against interceptors I still have a razor thin margin to catch you. So razor thin that it has less to do with skill and fitting and more to do with just plain dumb luck and if the server winds want to swing in my favor.

Should interceptors be extremely slippery and be able to dictate their engagements? Yes

Should interceptors be able to run around with absolute impunity against any form of counter defense? No

I for one love people running around goonspace trying to blow us up. It provides valuable lessons and content. But when a single ship is able to engage only the things he wants to, and just laugh and run away from everything else, no matter how big of a defense is mounted against it, that's kind of broken.

I agree with others in this thread that say the combat and tackling abilities of interceptors aren't what need to be nerfed. Only their ability to warp in, look, and turn around and warp out before ANYTHING (Even sensor boosted, high scan res frigates in point blank scram range) can catch it. It not impossible, but like I said earlier, it just comes down to %33 percent skill/fit %66 percent dumb luck. Needs more skill/fit, less dumb luck.

Lol, did you even read what I wrote? VNIs and Ishtars are invulnerable. They're not going to die to rats (although I do trust goons in accomplishing even this), and they're not going to die to anything bigger than inties as well, since they're at the pos/safe long before you warp into their site.

This nerf means that inties are no longer able to travel safely and quickly - the role they are intended to fill. Is it intended that there are ship setups that can lock and tackle every single other ship in the game, even the ones supposed to be extremely slippery? No.

Quote:
Should interceptors be able to run around with absolute impunity against any form of counter defense? No

There is a counter, smartbomb camps. It's easy, it's basically unavoidable if set up right, and it utterly annihilates a gang of frigates. There is a counter, but just like so often, goons aren't willing/able to field it effectively and would rather cry.
Quote:
So razor thin that it has less to do with skill and fitting and more to do with just plain dumb luck and if the server winds want to swing in my favor.

You just described my problem with instalocking. It shouldn't exist, why is it in the game?
Quote:

But when a single ship is able to engage only the things he wants to, and just laugh and run away from everything else, no matter how big of a defense is mounted against it, that's kind of broken.

You can't run from smartbombs.Besides, inties picking their fights and getting in and out of a fight when they chose to is what they're supposed to do.

Hint: the fit we were running had nothing to do with luck. We were gimping our tanking and damage dealing capabilities to the maximum in return for 100% safety of gatecamps. Our fits weren't able to engage anything else than a lone ratter, but somehow that must've been classified as OP...
ZheoTheThird
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-01-16 22:33:33 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Does this actually make a difference when trying to catch an inty at a gate?


Yes.

Because of mechanical interactions server ticks and gate cloak, a ship with an align time below two seconds cannot be pointed out of gate cloak before it warps away, no matter how high your scan resolution is or how quick your finger is on the prefire button. Anything over that line can be caught. Note that this only applies to ships leaving gatecloak: ships undocking or landing on grid can be caught conventionally.


The Malediction and Crow are getting hit harder than the others because, combined with this and their ability to engage targets from a safe distances and completely ignore their MWD penalties to damage application, they have been the gold standard of uncatchable interceptor roams. To be frank, being able to do your damage without having to come within scram/web/neut range or worry about tracking while you zoom around at 4km/sec is a really really big advantage.


I haven't undocked my ratting ships since Rubicon hit for what it's worth, though I've spent plenty of time shitting up other people's space in an interceptor.


You fail to mention that such fits have zero utility, about 60 dps maximum, no tank to speak off and a 100% increased signature radius due to the inertia stabs required. Now that that's nerfed, deklein will be at peace again.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#65 - 2014-01-16 22:40:58 UTC
Verb Object wrote:
More evidence that goon tears are a major component in driving balance iteration~


yup.....

Balance iteration...funny term.

And the theory that goons are running the show is like saying gravity is just a theory.
Re'doubt
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#66 - 2014-01-16 23:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Re'doubt
I don't like seeing added features taken away. Really the only people this specific change helps are gate campers and null sec ratters.

Further, saying that you'd like to bring interceptors back in line with other frigates is simply a bad way to phrase this entire change. Interceptors are not assault frigates, they are not regular T1 frigates, they are made for a purpose and that is to intercept/catch prey and hold them down with their agility and tackle ability until help arrives. And they are suppose to do this job better than a regular T1 frigate.

Saying that you want to change interceptors, but really only hitting the crow and malediction hard is also kind of a silly statement. Yeah, they do align really damn fast. I do agree with that. But instead of hitting especially these two ships really hard with reduced ability (Which could significantly hurt the ability of these ships to fly in combat and do their job), maybe hit them half as hard. This might be better to bring them back in line with the other interceptors.

All of the changes proposed today seem thrown in without much thought.
Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#67 - 2014-01-16 23:24:50 UTC
So goons managed to get ceptors AND drones nerfed? That's a strong lobby...
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2014-01-16 23:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
edit: nevermind, I made a pretty dumb error when penning this post and it ended up making the whole point irrelevant. Whoops!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-01-16 23:51:28 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Verb Object wrote:
More evidence that goon tears are a major component in driving balance iteration~


yup.....

Balance iteration...funny term.

And the theory that goons are running the show is like saying gravity is just a theory.

No.

(Also "gravity" is not a theory, it's an observed effect. Newton's laws of gravity are a theory. General relativity is a theory. Saying that something is "just a theory" is stupid because it fundamentally misunderstands the concept of theory in the first place.)

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-01-16 23:56:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Fun fact, I actually experimented with MWD mass penalty reductions when I was doing the Navy Cruisers. It's so overpowered that I had a blast with it on the test server but it isn't something I expect we'll see on TQ any time soon.

The best thing about it was what happened when you combine with an oversized MWD.



so give the bonus to Battleship hulll.. no oversizing....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#71 - 2014-01-17 00:23:59 UTC
While I can get behind the concept of making intys more catchable at gates, unfortunately it has an unfortunate side effect of making interceptors harder to manage. THe less agility they have, the larger their turn radius at full burn and the harder it is to manage keeping a point on your target without zooming into scram range (ie. you are effectively nerfing its primary role)

Interceptors should never have gotten that bubble immunity. That's the real problem, and as pointed out before it came out, is totally unnecessary.
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2014-01-17 01:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
ZheoTheThird wrote:
[
You can't run from smartbombs.Besides, inties picking their fights and getting in and out of a fight when they chose to is what they're supposed to do.

Hint: the fit we were running had nothing to do with luck. We were gimping our tanking and damage dealing capabilities to the maximum in return for 100% safety of gatecamps. Our fits weren't able to engage anything else than a lone ratter, but somehow that must've been classified as OP...



You can't run from smartbombs, but you could also try doing literally anything other than fleet-warping yourselves unscouted from gate to gate all the way across a region if you want to avoid them. It's not like you don't know the possibility of it exists or something and if you take basic proactive measures you can completely avoid it. The only way for you to end up in a pile on top of the Disco Tempest is to put yourselves there.

Anyways, your problem isn't that Ishtars are too hard to catch, because your frigates are still perfectly capable of that and half of them are probably literally AFK anyways. Your problem is that defense fleets are too effective and now it's not mechanically impossible for them to catch you. Why do you think a group of PvP pilots actively seeking to defend their own space shouldn't be able to do so?
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#73 - 2014-01-17 03:44:57 UTC
I have to agree with a lot of folks here, nerfing the interceptors agility hurts our ability to do our jobs.

as much fun as it is, the bubble immunity needs to go. after that, problem solved. nerfing the agility hurts their role, nothing more.

edit: I spel gud.
michael chasseur
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-01-17 03:46:52 UTC
gotta protect those CFC ratters at all costs!
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union
Hatakani Trade Winds Combine
#75 - 2014-01-17 03:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rovinia
At least a chance to get those little rascals now Blink Let's see how it works out.

Another approach could be to move the the bubble immunity to a module (passive). If fitted, agility gets decreased and you get interdiction nullification.
michael chasseur
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-01-17 03:49:36 UTC
Voyager Arran wrote:
ZheoTheThird wrote:
[
You can't run from smartbombs.Besides, inties picking their fights and getting in and out of a fight when they chose to is what they're supposed to do.

Hint: the fit we were running had nothing to do with luck. We were gimping our tanking and damage dealing capabilities to the maximum in return for 100% safety of gatecamps. Our fits weren't able to engage anything else than a lone ratter, but somehow that must've been classified as OP...



You can't run from smartbombs, but you could also try doing literally anything other than fleet-warping yourselves unscouted from gate to gate all the way across a region if you want to avoid them. It's not like you don't know the possibility of it exists or something and if you take basic proactive measures you can completely avoid it. The only way for you to end up in a pile on top of the Disco Tempest is to put yourselves there.

Anyways, your problem isn't that Ishtars are too hard to catch, because your frigates are still perfectly capable of that and half of them are probably literally AFK anyways. Your problem is that defense fleets are too effective and now it's not mechanically impossible for them to catch you. Why do you think a group of PvP pilots actively seeking to defend their own space shouldn't be able to do so?


your defense fleets didn't fail to catch TEST maledictions because they're "invincible", they failed to catch them because your defense fleets are terrible and led by even more terrible FCs
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#77 - 2014-01-17 04:02:50 UTC
This change is reasonable. Everyone who QQ's about bubble immunity are just incompetent campers.
MonkeyMagic Thiesant
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-01-17 04:23:01 UTC
Had a look at the numbers - to catch a standard fit ceptor in a gatecamp you'll need approx 1150 scan res, which is about what a ceptor in a fleet has. Or a multiple reseboed Arazu .....

To catch a nano fit or agility-rigged ceptor, you'll need approx 2300 scanres (which is a ceptor with sebo and t2 scanres rig). I think this is the main difference in terms of travelling around - in the past the stiletto / malediction / raptor / ares were already at this figure without needing to add anything extra.
Re'doubt
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#79 - 2014-01-17 04:47:38 UTC
MonkeyMagic Thiesant wrote:
Had a look at the numbers - to catch a standard fit ceptor in a gatecamp you'll need approx 1150 scan res, which is about what a ceptor in a fleet has. Or a multiple reseboed Arazu .....

To catch a nano fit or agility-rigged ceptor, you'll need approx 2300 scanres (which is a ceptor with sebo and t2 scanres rig). I think this is the main difference in terms of travelling around - in the past the stiletto / malediction / raptor / ares were already at this figure without needing to add anything extra.


Not to knock you or anything but I don't see why its such a big bad terrible thing to have a ship that can insta warp. But having gate camps that can insta lock is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Maybe i'm just dense like that though.
Maxeyra
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-01-17 05:12:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
darius mclever wrote:
Why do the 2 missile ceptors get the biggest hit here? why does the crow deserve a 1s slower base align time compared to the ares?

just curious about the reasons.


Every interceptor should have their own strengths and weaknesses that make the decision of which to fly interesting.
The Crow has excellent damage application at long ranges (even when it is flying at high speeds), four very valuable midslots and the longest lock range of any interceptor. It's weaknesses are a bit less speed than most others, lower theoretical top end damage, as well as slightly weaker agility.


you're obviously testing this stuff yourself when you think of it, right? so you know that inties, even with 1nano can be caught, people that want to fit 4 nanos/istabs to an inty SHOULD be able to run any camp, you cant fit enough LO in an inty to cyno without 1-2 expanders which make you easily catchable by a camp that is prepared for it, and this doesnt fix the cyno issue anyway as people will just fit a cloak and mwd+cloak into warp regardless.

why dont you instead focus on balancing battlecruisers better so that talos isnt the only viable BC and one of the only other small gang pvp ships isnt a tengu, as it stands theres 2-3 amazing ships and the rest are garbage