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To gank or not to gank, that is the question...

Author
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#81 - 2014-01-16 03:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
I've seen Thrashers, Catalysts, and Vexors that are very effective at ganking. There's some real pros I've been talking to that use Hurricanes, too. They do less volley damage but sometimes about the same DPS but are much harder to use for a gank, though. The pilots who use them have more skill than I do. I like to keep it simple. I've tried a Vex and Catalyst over the last 2 weeks and haven't had much luck. I prefer to wait longer for the better kill. Using cheaper ships to do the same thing would be nice... maybe I'll pick up enough talent to use them at some point, but atm the Tornado is my hull of choice.

Edit: and I totally agree with the volley damage of a nado being way overkill. It is. Were I to use any other ship I'd mount a ship scanner to see how they are fit.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#82 - 2014-01-16 04:29:50 UTC
The real currency of ganking is not isk, but the tears. Isk is just icing on the cake.
Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2014-01-16 04:40:00 UTC
Gogela wrote:
I've seen Thrashers, Catalysts, and Vexors that are very effective at ganking. There's some real pros I've been talking to that use Hurricanes, too. They do less volley damage but sometimes about the same DPS but are much harder to use for a gank, though. The pilots who use them have more skill than I do. I like to keep it simple. I've tried a Vex and Catalyst over the last 2 weeks and haven't had much luck. I prefer to wait longer for the better kill. Using cheaper ships to do the same thing would be nice... maybe I'll pick up enough talent to use them at some point, but atm the Tornado is my hull of choice.

Edit: and I totally agree with the volley damage of a nado being way overkill. It is. Were I to use any other ship I'd mount a ship scanner to see how they are fit.



I'm currently in a Rifter. But I have the skills and ability to have a thrasher as well chad a few, but had to dump them to move. I didn't have much luck. I fully admit that I totally was and still am oblivious as to how to got it properly. Also, I have no clue which weapons are "better" for it. I don't have too many options due to being new and not very many skills. I have about 55, all about lvl 2-5. But that's only because I don't want to waste time (so early on) learning or leveling skills I don't particularly need at the moment. I've been on the fitting page and all that. But since I'm not at T2 yet, the fittings given are not much help.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#84 - 2014-01-16 06:15:08 UTC
There are many reasons to gank, ego boost may be one of them, but there's nothing wrong with getting ego boost vs. weak and defenceless targets either - whatever turns you on kinda thing here. I'm not to judge anybody's sexual orientation or fixation, so I'm not going to judge where other players get their enjoyment from in EvE either.

Also, something to think about,

Hack & Slash games have their niche, and if it's hack & slash vs. real players it's even more entertaining. I enjoy occassional mission running although my main focus in game is PvP/Industry/Trading. I thought about why and it's basically hack & slash type of game. Flying an uber mission ship vs. defenceless and brainless NPC pirates. I couldn't do it all day every day for years on end, but there are times when it does feel fun. I don't think gankers who gank defenceless targets are any different from mission runners. Both are kind of farming and grinding work and sometimes there is a quiet pleasure you can get from such type of work. Why do it repeatedly? Why make a living off it? Repeating something over and over can make an activity to have a ritual like quality, and attachment to such ritual like activities has been part of human psychology for thousands of years.

I think real hypocracy is anyone who looks down on how other people enjoy their game.

PvPers looking down on mission runners
Traders looking down on other players making comparatively meagre ISK with much more effort
Low-sec PvPers looking down on hi-sec wardeccers
Null players looking down on hi-sec players
Players with some '(moral) high ground' looking down on others who engage in less skill intensive or what they deem 'low level' activities

Aren't they all same? Isn't everyone in above (and more) categories all trying to justify their position and getting ego boost from looking down on the others? Is there any objective criteria that says something is 'better' than the other? Even if there is an objective criteria, considering that 'fun' is subjective, is there even any reason to apply such criteria?

I don't know man. I get off whatever turns me on depending on my mood and I have no problem with others doing the same.
Inxentas Ultramar
Wachters der Lage Landen
The Watchmen.
#85 - 2014-01-16 14:11:56 UTC
Funny how many people speak of an ego boost. I agree with Logical 101 and don't see it, or feel it that way. I get such boosts by pulling off (solo) kills against the odds instead of having them stacking in my favour. What I DO see is the sheer principle of wealth being relative, which validates any hostile action against anyone, at any time, with any tool at their disposal.
Mr Blah Blahson
Doomheim
#86 - 2014-01-16 14:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Blah Blahson
Pretty sure gankers make a good amount of ISK.

For one, it's usually just a solo pilot when looking at industrial ship ganking. That is, non-freighters.
When looking at the larger ganks, it might be 25 Catalysts but it's not 25 pilots. More likely 5 pilots multiboxing 5 characters each.

Lastly there is a difference between ganking and griefing. Griefers are mostly RL losers who grief online to feel better about themselves. Many were bullied in the past or were the bully, and simply haven't grown up.

Judging the act of ganking though becomes a bit more varied, as the ISK incentive comes into play. I have found most hauler/freighter/mission runners are rather normal people who are mostly doing it for the ISK, while most miner gankers fit the description in the paragraph above.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#87 - 2014-01-16 15:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Gogela wrote:
I've seen Thrashers, Catalysts, and Vexors that are very effective at ganking. There's some real pros I've been talking to that use Hurricanes, too. They do less volley damage but sometimes about the same DPS but are much harder to use for a gank, though. The pilots who use them have more skill than I do. I like to keep it simple. I've tried a Vex and Catalyst over the last 2 weeks and haven't had much luck. I prefer to wait longer for the better kill. Using cheaper ships to do the same thing would be nice... maybe I'll pick up enough talent to use them at some point, but atm the Tornado is my hull of choice.

Edit: and I totally agree with the volley damage of a nado being way overkill. It is. Were I to use any other ship I'd mount a ship scanner to see how they are fit.

There isn't any real secret to fitting a Cat to gank. A Meta-3 Gankalyst costs about 8 or 9 mil ISK. A T-2 version, about 12 Mil. You can go cheaper, but your DPS starts falling fast below those prices. A Meta-3 Gankalyst can reliably pop Retrievers and Hulks in 0.6 and 0.5 space, and particularly lol-fit Retrivers in 0.7 space, if your skills are high. The T-2 version is much more capable, and really blows stuff up fast - I've even managed to take two barges in a single event with a T-2 Gankalyst.

Also, as I discovered to my delight last night, the Meta-3 Gankalyst can take massive bites out of cruisers and even battle cruisers; of course for that you need some friends along. And a good, cool-headed FC.
Paranoid Loyd
#88 - 2014-01-16 18:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I've seen Thrashers, Catalysts, and Vexors that are very effective at ganking. There's some real pros I've been talking to that use Hurricanes, too. They do less volley damage but sometimes about the same DPS but are much harder to use for a gank, though. The pilots who use them have more skill than I do. I like to keep it simple. I've tried a Vex and Catalyst over the last 2 weeks and haven't had much luck. I prefer to wait longer for the better kill. Using cheaper ships to do the same thing would be nice... maybe I'll pick up enough talent to use them at some point, but atm the Tornado is my hull of choice.

Edit: and I totally agree with the volley damage of a nado being way overkill. It is. Were I to use any other ship I'd mount a ship scanner to see how they are fit.

There isn't any real secret to fitting a Cat to gank. A Meta-3 Gankalyst costs about 8 or 9 mil ISK. A T-2 version, about 12 Mil. You can go cheaper, but your DPS starts falling fast below those prices. A Meta-3 Gankalyst can reliably pop Retrievers and Hulks in 0.6 and 0.5 space, and particularly lol-fit Retrivers in 0.7 space, if your skills are high. The T-2 version is much more capable, and really blows stuff up fast - I've even managed to take two barges in a single event with a T-2 Gankalyst.

Also, as I discovered to my delight last night, the Meta-3 Gankalyst can take massive bites out of cruisers and even battle cruisers; of course for that you need some friends along. And a good, cool-headed FC.


All of your comments are relevant to non-gate ganking.

This part of the discussion was about ganking indys on gates so gate guns become a factor, that being said, there is a particular way a cat needs to be fit to use it on gates and is mostly restricted to AFK and/or autopiloting targets.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Mister Simms
Society for Miner Education
#89 - 2014-01-16 19:25:57 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:

There isn't any real secret to fitting a Cat to gank. A Meta-3 Gankalyst costs about 8 or 9 mil ISK. A T-2 version, about 12 Mil. You can go cheaper, but your DPS starts falling fast below those prices. A Meta-3 Gankalyst can reliably pop Retrievers and Hulks in 0.6 and 0.5 space, and particularly lol-fit Retrivers in 0.7 space, if your skills are high. The T-2 version is much more capable, and really blows stuff up fast - I've even managed to take two barges in a single event with a T-2 Gankalyst.

Also, as I discovered to my delight last night, the Meta-3 Gankalyst can take massive bites out of cruisers and even battle cruisers; of course for that you need some friends along. And a good, cool-headed FC.


YMMV of course, but I use a lot of Meta 2 fit Cats. Cost for those, including ammo and rigs, is about 3M (that uses a Meta 3 Mag stab). My Meta 3 fit Cat costs about 4.3M. For that extra 1.3M, I get only about 23 more dps.

My T2 fits (still using the same Meta 3 Mag Stab) are about 9M and do about 155 more dps than the Meta 2. In short, for me I get....

Meta 1 - 426 dps
Meta 2 - 502 dps
Meta 3 - 525 dps
T2 - 660 dps

I could do more with better implants, better mag stabs, or better rigs, but for cost vs dps, these work well.

Also, a bare Retriever with a pilot with good tanking skills will have about 9500 EHP against my Neutron Blasters. With my Meta 3 fit, that means I can't solo a Ret in .7 and can only do it in .5 and .6 if they have NO tank fit at all. Even a T1 Invul will make that Ret ungankable in .6 by my solo Meta 3. and if they add a DCU or shield rigs, then I can't solo it even in .5.

So, your implants or rigs may be much better (more expensive) than mine, but I'd be surprised if you could "reliably" solo Rets in .5 and .6.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#90 - 2014-01-16 19:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I've seen Thrashers, Catalysts, and Vexors that are very effective at ganking. There's some real pros I've been talking to that use Hurricanes, too. They do less volley damage but sometimes about the same DPS but are much harder to use for a gank, though. The pilots who use them have more skill than I do. I like to keep it simple. I've tried a Vex and Catalyst over the last 2 weeks and haven't had much luck. I prefer to wait longer for the better kill. Using cheaper ships to do the same thing would be nice... maybe I'll pick up enough talent to use them at some point, but atm the Tornado is my hull of choice.

Edit: and I totally agree with the volley damage of a nado being way overkill. It is. Were I to use any other ship I'd mount a ship scanner to see how they are fit.

There isn't any real secret to fitting a Cat to gank. A Meta-3 Gankalyst costs about 8 or 9 mil ISK. A T-2 version, about 12 Mil. You can go cheaper, but your DPS starts falling fast below those prices. A Meta-3 Gankalyst can reliably pop Retrievers and Hulks in 0.6 and 0.5 space, and particularly lol-fit Retrivers in 0.7 space, if your skills are high. The T-2 version is much more capable, and really blows stuff up fast - I've even managed to take two barges in a single event with a T-2 Gankalyst.

Also, as I discovered to my delight last night, the Meta-3 Gankalyst can take massive bites out of cruisers and even battle cruisers; of course for that you need some friends along. And a good, cool-headed FC.


All of your comments are relevant to non-gate ganking.

This discussions was about ganking indys on gates so gate guns become a factor, that being said, there is a particular way a cat needs to be fit to use it on gates and is mostly restricted to AFK and/or autopiloting targets.

Ah. Nevermind, then. Cool

Mister Simms, your fitting skills are clearly > than mine. :: respect ::

Mister Simms wrote:

Also, So, your implants or rigs may be much better (more expensive) than mine, but I'd be surprised if you could "reliably" solo Rets in .5 and .6.

I do use implants. I'm not the most prolific ganker, but I generally don't have a problem - I do pick my targets carefully, though - and I don't generally find that Retriever pilots have good fitting skills.

Then again, sometimes comedy happens - Like getting an unfortunate rat spawn, who choose me to ECM, instead of my victim. Happened to me last night.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#91 - 2014-01-16 19:56:45 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
(If this topic belongs on a different feed, let me know)

I'll keep it short and simple...

I've been watching a lot of videos on YouTube of suicide ganking fleets and corps, and... I get it. The only thing no one is explaining is how 1.5 billion isk, spread between 20 or so people, is worth it. I've seen some pretty damn expensive frigate fittings, and I'm just not understanding the benefit of suicide ganking. Besides the ego boost that someone mentioned gaining from it. So please, explain this.

See this.
Mister Simms
Society for Miner Education
#92 - 2014-01-16 20:06:12 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:

I do use implants. I'm not the most prolific ganker, but I generally don't have a problem - I do pick my targets carefully, though - and I don't generally find that Retriever pilots have good fitting skills.

Then again, sometimes comedy happens - Like getting an unfortunate rat spawn, who choose me to ECM, instead of my victim. Happened to me last night.


lol, I've not had that happen yet. In fact, I've never thought about it. That is one very fortunate miner.

Last night I was about to call it a night and I had just enough modules to fit a set of Meta2 cats and was going to gank a tanked Mack in .7 space. Somehow, I screwed up the fleet warp and by the time we knew what was going on, we lost all three ships. The miner never even blinked.

The hauler was able to loot our wrecks but as is typical, we only get about 1/3 to 2/3 of the modules from our gank ships.
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2014-01-16 23:01:49 UTC
When me and m8 used to do empganks we started to try see ow much isk we could make but afta few days i started doing it for lolz i still laugh over a few of the ganks i did and im thinking starting again

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it

Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-01-17 12:15:10 UTC
That's some great info right there, all of you. So thank you.

And I have to agree and disagree with a few points made, respectfully tho. I'm a noob, so my experiences haven't been the longest. But, from my experience so far:

1. There most definitely is a "better" way to fit a ship. It's simple logistics really. If you have a goal, let's say you're ratting for a night... You would fit your ship a certain way. And that particular way would be horrible for a totally different objective, like fleet running things, etc. So even tho one or two fittings will never be "the best", there is a proper way to fit your ship. Even if you do tweak it a little with your personal preference of certain mods.

2. I used to be a miner, and I've ran into just a few gankers (unsuccessful) out there in my Retriever and Covetor. While I totally agree that MOST Retriever users, miners in general, don't know how to properly fit a Retriever or Covetor (Procurer too). But the ones that due? Can withstand quite a bit. And as I've said I'm a noob, but I haven't seen a solo Frigate kill a Retriever. All they do, I've done, is throw all the drones at them, make sure you're already aligned, and be fitted properly... That's it. Drones keep the Frigate busy and, if you're smart, you'll have a turret set up for defense. That, plus a properly fitted Med-slot, you can get away easy and safe. But... Even with that said, I believe it. I just haven't seen it first hand. I'm on the other side of the fence now, so I would love to roll out and blow up some miners.

3. Someone mentioned the isk factor a couple comments back. And I have to totally agree. I like to pick targets wisely and not "waste" resources. Finding a nice profit off of a target is perfect. And I don't see anything wrong with that. As the lady mentioned a couple comments above, there is no wrong way to play. I just believe it's a morals thing that comes into play for some people. Some don't mind ganking, some see it as "wrong", etc. But it's all EvE, and that's something I've grown to learn pretty fast. EvE is EvE... It's a universe. It's not going to change (economy excluded). And it is what it is. It's one big PvP world. But more than that, it's an MMO that is virtually ran by the players. So you have to expect the unexpected and be prepared. In my opinion, the "griefers" are the ones that are just ignorant in a sense. They think they have nothing to worry about, high-sec is completely safe, etc. So, being as greedy as they are (most are here in New Eden, me included), they fit their Retrievers or whatever with the slots filled with mining gear and perks and rigs... Some even stupid enough to use their drone hold for mining drones instead of combat or defensive drones. So, in the world of New Eden, there are people that want and are going to take advantage of that situation. And they have every right too. But the griefers are the ones that are ignorant enough to do that, but then get on chat and start crying about and literally getting upset over it. Same with people that carry millions of isk worth of stuff, alone, in mid-sec (what I call sec's 0.7-0.5). You KNOW there are people out there, somewhere, just waiting for a target. Or maybe they already got some intel on the haul somehow already... So why do that? If you're going to take that risk, then be aware of the possible consequences. If I'm playing a poker game, I only put in what I'm willing to lose. That would seem like common sense. There's always a good and a bad group. And EvE is no different. I've learned that lol.



EDIT: I keep getting mixed signals. Some veterans have told me that Destroyers are useless and I should just focus on getting past them, to Cruisers. Then I get some veterans that say Destroyers are still a class up from Frigates. So it's just a matter of better defense and or bonuses. I've heard that a Destroyer can take out a Cruiser, even Battlecruiser. And also, that a Frigate can take out the same. I know, all opinions are of course bias. But any info helps. I've used a Frigate and Destroyer. And I understand the Destroyer has more guns, so more damage... Duh. But I've also been podded very fast in a Destroyer. I'm currently running a Thrasher (I've gotten mixed signals on that too), and it's fitted as best I can. If I was online I would post my fitting. But the last time I went out and just roamed around with the fleet, I got podded. It was fair, and totally my fault. I wasn't paying attention, so I didn't keep aligning and staying on a fast pace. I was just cruising randomly. A battlecruiser came out of nowhere, pop. My fault. I definitely can get away. But I wasn't prepared. But that's not a very good situation to base my fitting off of. My fault, not the fitting. My corp CEO has been helping me with fits and such. I've been training my skills to enable me to use those fits, so I'm going at a nice pace. But still not quite there lol.
Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-01-17 12:27:00 UTC
Again, I apologize for my noob-ness.


I don't really understand the concept of high-sec ganking. Is all high-sec ganking considered "suicide ganking"? From what I know, Concord is on your ass within 10 seconds. So I would only assume that it is in face a suicide mission. But I've also heard of oeople getting away. On the other hand, I heard that acts of avoiding and escaping Concord is a bannable offense. I'm currently stationed in 0.0 space. The market sucks and there's no Concord back up to save you (which I like). Market, not so much. And so, I don't currently have to worry about Concord smacking my hand if I kill someone. But I would like to run with the fleet to high-sec, but I want to understand it first.
Ekkentros Mercari
EVE Landscape Services
#96 - 2014-01-17 13:17:57 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
From what I know, Concord is on your ass within 10 seconds.

Here's the rundown of CONCORD response times:

Sec status: response time
1.0: 6 seconds
0.9: 6 seconds
0.8: 8 seconds
0.7: 10 seconds
0.6: 14 seconds
0.5: 18 seconds

In all systems, if CONCORD has already been spawned, their response times are 6 seconds slower. This means they can take as long as 24 seconds to respond in 0.5 systems.

TL;DR: Don't reply.

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#97 - 2014-01-17 13:35:32 UTC
Etria Issen wrote:

...At least, to me, ganking implies you engage someone who has absolutely no chance of defeating you. How do you feel proud of crushing someone you utterly outclass? There's just no fun or bragging rights in that.

The universe is suppose to punish stupidity. Badly fitted mining ships, AFKers, industrial with 100M in the hold and no 50k isk defense mod... We provide that service. Education is important and something to be proud of. We should get paid for getting rid of stupidity.

What is there to be proud of with mining a big defenseless rock for hour after hour with some other AFK alt sitting in a POS with links? What skill was required? What FC called that rock to be primary out off all those rocks?

Hell if you really get down to it, why be proud of anything you achieve or do in a video game. Its all space pixels anyway.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#98 - 2014-01-17 15:36:19 UTC
Mister Simms wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:


Then again, sometimes comedy happens - Like getting an unfortunate rat spawn, who choose me to ECM, instead of my victim. Happened to me last night.


lol, I've not had that happen yet. In fact, I've never thought about it. That is one very fortunate miner.
I was flabergasted - I could only sit there and stare bemusedly as Concord arrived and extracted me from my hull. The miner was completely befuddled - Asking in Local what had just happend. Apparently, he didn't connect his smoking shields with me; I guess he thought the rats had done it, and that Concord had somehow come to rescue him from rats.

Sometimes, the gods really do look out for fools and idiots. Big smile

Quote:
Last night I was about to call it a night and I had just enough modules to fit a set of Meta2 cats and was going to gank a tanked Mack in .7 space. Somehow, I screwed up the fleet warp and by the time we knew what was going on, we lost all three ships. The miner never even blinked.

The hauler was able to loot our wrecks but as is typical, we only get about 1/3 to 2/3 of the modules from our gank ships.
Loss of situational awareness can lead to high comedy. Big smile
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#99 - 2014-01-17 15:49:38 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
EDIT: I keep getting mixed signals. Some veterans have told me that Destroyers are useless and I should just focus on getting past them, to Cruisers. Then I get some veterans that say Destroyers are still a class up from Frigates. So it's just a matter of better defense and or bonuses.

Destroyers are fine... For what they do. Glass cannon, with massive DPS potential, but they pop like soap bubbles. OTOH, they *cost* like soap bubbles. A Dessy gang is a fearsome thing, especially under the control of a cool-headed FC. We went out the other night and basically slaughtered everything we locked, only lost a few hulls, and most of the fleet came back intact, despite a couple fairly serious Cuiser gangs in the AO. Among the kills were a Tornado and a Navy-Issue Omen (see my EVE-Kill board). Also a blinged-out Hyena that cost three times more than our entire fleet combined (personally missed that one - never got in range), and a few other less-notable kills. A well-managed Dessy gang is like a school of piranha.

BUT - If you hit a target that can tank the initial couple volleys, you're in trouble. And if you hit a well-managed fleet of cruisers, well, most of you are going home via Pod Express™.
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#100 - 2014-01-17 16:04:57 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
ego boost

This is something I have never, ever understood.

From the perspective of someone who has never been suicide ganked nor has ever participated in the act, I can't understand how can you could possibly derive an ego boost from suicide ganking.

When suicide ganking, you are, quite literally, exhibiting zero skill. None. Nothing. Nada. Zip. You massed, you pressed a button, and you died. Your FC didn't display any good decision making, your logistics didn't perform admirably, you didn't take down someone who came into the fight with the intention of crushing you, you didn't break free from a certain death tackle only to sweep around and point a key ship, you didn't, you didn't, you didn't... and so on ad infinitum.

Ego should go hand-in-hand with some form of actual achievement. I fail to see how being a bottom feeder could possibly make anyone feel better about themselves.


That is the mark of a good game, however. If different people have very different goals it makes for a rich environment and win-win situations.

If everyone had the same goal it creates a zero-sum game environment that is much more boring.