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To gank or not to gank, that is the question...

Author
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#61 - 2014-01-15 22:57:28 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
I don't think anybody ganks for an "ego boost." Some folks who think like that are basically carebears who don't really understand what sort of person would enjoy ganking or why.

The most common motivation for gankers is that it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode. Isk profit tends to come a distant second, although some people are pretty good at that side of it. Personally I only even loot the wrecks most of the time just to prevent the gankee from coming back and getting his stuff, not because I want it for myself.


"it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode"... Not sure where you're from pal, but that's called "stroking your ego". You just became a hypocrite.


Not in English, no.

Enjoyment and amusement is far from ego stroking.

But then, I suppose a thief would always expect others to steal, if you get my point.



Enjoyment and amusement over some weaker person's death is attained by getting satisfaction over the same tragedy. Which, in turn, is for personal satisfaction and gain. Gain, by feeling powerful. Enjoyment is gained through different actions, dependent on the individual person. Nonetheless, if ganking weaker people is just simply amusing to you, then I personally do not think you're utilizing EvE to it's fullest potential. I enjoy and am entertained by outfitting somebody, in an equally matched battle. Or, finding an orca, killing all of it's drones, and using web to keep it from warping. But... Not touching it. Just keep bumping it. It's funny to me, and to see the "fear in their eyes". But that's me. To each their own. New Eden is here for us to do whatever we want, as we want. So in reality, no one is right or wrong here.
Careful - your pop-psych is showing.
Genseric Tollaris
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-01-15 22:58:25 UTC
Logical 101 wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Agony Unleashed

Here's our KB.

Enjoy.

And if I'm not mistaken, this is you?

Lol


Wow, I'm in the company of pvp giants. Please link your personal kb so I may bask in its awesome, I can't seem to find it myself. Or is Logical your noob hauler alt?

Genseric Tollaris
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-01-15 23:03:32 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
I don't think anybody ganks for an "ego boost." Some folks who think like that are basically carebears who don't really understand what sort of person would enjoy ganking or why.

The most common motivation for gankers is that it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode. Isk profit tends to come a distant second, although some people are pretty good at that side of it. Personally I only even loot the wrecks most of the time just to prevent the gankee from coming back and getting his stuff, not because I want it for myself.


"it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode"... Not sure where you're from pal, but that's called "stroking your ego". You just became a hypocrite.


Not in English, no.

Enjoyment and amusement is far from ego stroking.

But then, I suppose a thief would always expect others to steal, if you get my point.



Enjoyment and amusement over some weaker person's death is attained by getting satisfaction over the same tragedy. Which, in turn, is for personal satisfaction and gain. Gain, by feeling powerful. Enjoyment is gained through different actions, dependent on the individual person. Nonetheless, if ganking weaker people is just simply amusing to you, then I personally do not think you're utilizing EvE to it's fullest potential. I enjoy and am entertained by outfitting somebody, in an equally matched battle. Or, finding an orca, killing all of it's drones, and using web to keep it from warping. But... Not touching it. Just keep bumping it. It's funny to me, and to see the "fear in their eyes". But that's me. To each their own. New Eden is here for us to do whatever we want, as we want. So in reality, no one is right or wrong here.


Eve pvp for you at this point is clearly no more than theory. You should quit posting and go play the game.
Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2014-01-15 23:44:46 UTC
Genseric Tollaris wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
I don't think anybody ganks for an "ego boost." Some folks who think like that are basically carebears who don't really understand what sort of person would enjoy ganking or why.

The most common motivation for gankers is that it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode. Isk profit tends to come a distant second, although some people are pretty good at that side of it. Personally I only even loot the wrecks most of the time just to prevent the gankee from coming back and getting his stuff, not because I want it for myself.


"it makes us giggle to make some unsuspecting person suddenly explode"... Not sure where you're from pal, but that's called "stroking your ego". You just became a hypocrite.


Not in English, no.

Enjoyment and amusement is far from ego stroking.

But then, I suppose a thief would always expect others to steal, if you get my point.



Enjoyment and amusement over some weaker person's death is attained by getting satisfaction over the same tragedy. Which, in turn, is for personal satisfaction and gain. Gain, by feeling powerful. Enjoyment is gained through different actions, dependent on the individual person. Nonetheless, if ganking weaker people is just simply amusing to you, then I personally do not think you're utilizing EvE to it's fullest potential. I enjoy and am entertained by outfitting somebody, in an equally matched battle. Or, finding an orca, killing all of it's drones, and using web to keep it from warping. But... Not touching it. Just keep bumping it. It's funny to me, and to see the "fear in their eyes". But that's me. To each their own. New Eden is here for us to do whatever we want, as we want. So in reality, no one is right or wrong here.


Eve pvp for you at this point is clearly no more than theory. You should quit posting and go play the game.


Too busy at work where I make real money and have an actual life. I apologize for being new to PvP and not spending 18 hours a day in my mom's basement on a computer playing EvE for social status. If I was trying to be a "badass" then that comment might have been offensive. But no, not so much. I play EvE when and as I want. If my questions bother you, then I suggest you not read them and just continue playing the game yourself. I ask questions to get answers. I'm not one that thinks I know everything, like some. So, I ask. And I'm also training all the skills I possibly can, in relation to PvP, before I go out and try to start fights. This game is time-based. Meaning, if you're months or even years ahead of someone, you're definitely "better", in the sense that you would have more skills and abilities. I just joined an awesome corp with great, like-minded people. So I will be heading out with the fleet soon. But it would not be wise at the moment. Thank you for your suggestion tho. But I'll do things the way I would like, thank you.
Mister Simms
Society for Miner Education
#65 - 2014-01-15 23:49:37 UTC
I agree with one of the above posters. There are probably as many reasons to gank as there are gankers. I have been approached by coalitions of miners who have offered me rewards for ganking a hisec multiboxer that is sucking up all the roids in their area. ( I would have been happy to oblige but the miner in question actually knows how to make himself a very unattractive target.)

One reason I don't gank is for the renown "tears" in local. I ignore them in local and don't taunt them as so many gankers are fond of doing. If they convo me it usually goes one of two ways, they either spout profanity and attempt to insult my parentage, education, sexual preferences, intelligence, courage, and most humorous of all, the size of my penis. I'll politely close the chat with the suggestion they review their tank. The other situation is they convo me with a comment such as "good gank", or "you caught me napping" or "how were you able to do that in hisec"? In those situations I will offer some suggestions as ways they can avoid the same thing happening again.

There are times when I will fail in my gank attempt, either because I or my crew screwed up, or they have an unexpectedly well fit ship, or in one case, a cloaky ECM boat that decloaked and jammed us so we just had to wait there for Concord to show up and put an end to our humiliation. In these cases I'll post in local "o7 great tank on that Mack" or some such. Only rarely do others in system bother to ask how that miner saved their ship.

Anyway, to the OPs question, gank if that is what will make EVE enjoyable. Ganking is only just one of the many activities that my man-behind-the-curtain partakes in New Eden.
Genseric Tollaris
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-01-16 00:01:41 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Too busy at work where I make real money and have an actual life. I apologize for being new to PvP and not spending 18 hours a day in my mom's basement on a computer playing EvE for social status. If I was trying to be a "badass" then that comment might have been offensive. But no, not so much. I play EvE when and as I want. If my questions bother you, then I suggest you not read them and just continue playing the game yourself. I ask questions to get answers. I'm not one that thinks I know everything, like some. So, I ask. And I'm also training all the skills I possibly can, in relation to PvP, before I go out and try to start fights. This game is time-based. Meaning, if you're months or even years ahead of someone, you're definitely "better", in the sense that you would have more skills and abilities. I just joined an awesome corp with great, like-minded people. So I will be heading out with the fleet soon. But it would not be wise at the moment. Thank you for your suggestion tho. But I'll do things the way I would like, thank you.


No need to get upset. Was merely suggesting that you may learn more by playing the game rather than posting your ignorance of it on the forums.
Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-01-16 00:01:58 UTC
Mister Simms wrote:
I agree with one of the above posters. There are probably as many reasons to gank as there are gankers. I have been approached by coalitions of miners who have offered me rewards for ganking a hisec multiboxer that is sucking up all the roids in their area. ( I would have been happy to oblige but the miner in question actually knows how to make himself a very unattractive target.)

One reason I don't gank is for the renown "tears" in local. I ignore them in local and don't taunt them as so many gankers are fond of doing. If they convo me it usually goes one of two ways, they either spout profanity and attempt to insult my parentage, education, sexual preferences, intelligence, courage, and most humorous of all, the size of my *****. I'll politely close the chat with the suggestion they review their tank. The other situation is they convo me with a comment such as "good gank", or "you caught me napping" or "how were you able to do that in hisec"? In those situations I will offer some suggestions as ways they can avoid the same thing happening again.

There are times when I will fail in my gank attempt, either because I or my crew screwed up, or they have an unexpectedly well fit ship, or in one case, a cloaky ECM boat that decloaked and jammed us so we just had to wait there for Concord to show up and put an end to our humiliation. In these cases I'll post in local "o7 great tank on that Mack" or some such. Only rarely do others in system bother to ask how that miner saved their ship.

Anyway, to the OPs question, gank if that is what will make EVE enjoyable. Ganking is only just one of the many activities that my man-behind-the-curtain partakes in New Eden.


Well I actually do a lot in New Eden. Obviously, previously being a miner/industrialist, I still work the market, run security for miners, escort people, etc. I JUST recently have been interested in PvP and the whole corp battles scenarios. So that's why I've been asking so many "noob" questions. Just trying to learn as much as possible before I just run out there and target something that... I shouldn't be targeting. Which, admittedly, I've done. And have gotten podded very vast. I also had to learn how to fit each class of ship properly. Properly, of course, for the role or purpose I'm going for. Just want to know as much as I possibly can. So, whenever I do get blown to bits in a good fight, I can die gracefully. Then I have no one to blame but myself and my mistakes/flaws. Which I'm very willing to admit.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#68 - 2014-01-16 00:02:39 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Too busy at work where I make real money and have an actual life. I apologize for being new to PvP and not spending 18 hours a day in my mom's basement on a computer playing EvE for social status. If I was trying to be a "badass" then that comment might have been offensive. But no, not so much. I play EvE when and as I want. If my questions bother you, then I suggest you not read them and just continue playing the game yourself. I ask questions to get answers. I'm not one that thinks I know everything, like some. So, I ask. And I'm also training all the skills I possibly can, in relation to PvP, before I go out and try to start fights. This game is time-based. Meaning, if you're months or even years ahead of someone, you're definitely "better", in the sense that you would have more skills and abilities. I just joined an awesome corp with great, like-minded people. So I will be heading out with the fleet soon. But it would not be wise at the moment. Thank you for your suggestion tho. But I'll do things the way I would like, thank you.
We thank you for not playing 18 hours a day, if this isn't your angry face showing.

Also :walloftext: Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Genseric Tollaris
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-01-16 00:09:52 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Mister Simms wrote:
I agree with one of the above posters. There are probably as many reasons to gank as there are gankers. I have been approached by coalitions of miners who have offered me rewards for ganking a hisec multiboxer that is sucking up all the roids in their area. ( I would have been happy to oblige but the miner in question actually knows how to make himself a very unattractive target.)

One reason I don't gank is for the renown "tears" in local. I ignore them in local and don't taunt them as so many gankers are fond of doing. If they convo me it usually goes one of two ways, they either spout profanity and attempt to insult my parentage, education, sexual preferences, intelligence, courage, and most humorous of all, the size of my *****. I'll politely close the chat with the suggestion they review their tank. The other situation is they convo me with a comment such as "good gank", or "you caught me napping" or "how were you able to do that in hisec"? In those situations I will offer some suggestions as ways they can avoid the same thing happening again.

There are times when I will fail in my gank attempt, either because I or my crew screwed up, or they have an unexpectedly well fit ship, or in one case, a cloaky ECM boat that decloaked and jammed us so we just had to wait there for Concord to show up and put an end to our humiliation. In these cases I'll post in local "o7 great tank on that Mack" or some such. Only rarely do others in system bother to ask how that miner saved their ship.

Anyway, to the OPs question, gank if that is what will make EVE enjoyable. Ganking is only just one of the many activities that my man-behind-the-curtain partakes in New Eden.


Well I actually do a lot in New Eden. Obviously, previously being a miner/industrialist, I still work the market, run security for miners, escort people, etc. I JUST recently have been interested in PvP and the whole corp battles scenarios. So that's why I've been asking so many "noob" questions. Just trying to learn as much as possible before I just run out there and target something that... I shouldn't be targeting. Which, admittedly, I've done. And have gotten podded very vast. I also had to learn how to fit each class of ship properly. Properly, of course, for the role or purpose I'm going for. Just want to know as much as I possibly can. So, whenever I do get blown to bits in a good fight, I can die gracefully. Then I have no one to blame but myself and my mistakes/flaws. Which I'm very willing to admit.


You may wan't to post your newbie questions on the newbie forum, you won't get trolled there.
Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-01-16 00:14:01 UTC
Genseric Tollaris wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Too busy at work where I make real money and have an actual life. I apologize for being new to PvP and not spending 18 hours a day in my mom's basement on a computer playing EvE for social status. If I was trying to be a "badass" then that comment might have been offensive. But no, not so much. I play EvE when and as I want. If my questions bother you, then I suggest you not read them and just continue playing the game yourself. I ask questions to get answers. I'm not one that thinks I know everything, like some. So, I ask. And I'm also training all the skills I possibly can, in relation to PvP, before I go out and try to start fights. This game is time-based. Meaning, if you're months or even years ahead of someone, you're definitely "better", in the sense that you would have more skills and abilities. I just joined an awesome corp with great, like-minded people. So I will be heading out with the fleet soon. But it would not be wise at the moment. Thank you for your suggestion tho. But I'll do things the way I would like, thank you.


No need to get upset. Was merely suggesting that you may learn more by playing the game rather than posting your ignorance of it on the forums.


Ignorance is when you know something to be true, but refuse to believe it. I am not doing that. I'm openly admitting I don't know jack **** about PvP. And getting blown up a billion times and losing billions of isk will not teach me anything. It will just teach me that I am nowhere close to that skill level. Which, I already know. Which is why I'm asking questions. Did you jump into calculus before you did algebra? No, you had to learn algebra first, so when you get to calculus, you can have a base to start from. Same principle here. I'm getting all the knowledge I can before moving onto the next step. And by all means, I'm not upset by simple things like text on a web page. I have grater things to spend my time worrying about. I just don't find your comments helpful or even relevant for that matter. If you have vast knowledge on the topic at hand, then please do share your knowledge with me/us, so I can get a better understanding of the tactics and logistics of it all. But so far, the best insight you've given is to just play the game. And as good as that advice is, it's not elaborating or giving any knowledge into the topic at hand. But as I said, I'm not arguing or fighting, nor am I upset. I would just like some more knowledge on the topic, as most of these kind folks have given.
Genseric Tollaris
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-01-16 00:15:22 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Ignorance is when you know something to be true, but refuse to believe it.


I stopped reading there.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#72 - 2014-01-16 00:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Well... how about just splitting the loot one way?

I use a tornado and have just gotten into suicide ganking solo (with alt to scoop loot, of course). It's great. I can't believe I didn't start doing this years ago! I found a super high volley damage fit and modified it to make it as cheap as possible to operate.

High:
8x 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon
Mid:
3x Sensor Booster II w/ targeting script
PL-0 Shipment Probe
Tracking Computer II w/ script
Low:
4x Gyrostabilizer II
Rigs:
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I

I target T1 indys only (sometimes I'll take a chance on a blockade runner if bored). So far I haven't seen a T1 indy that can survive a single volley of fire. That means you can gank in any system and CONCORD on the gate isn't really an issue. That's also why there's no ship scanner there... I don't care what they mounted to the ship. It doesn't matter. They die anyway. All I care about is the cargo scan, keep my weapons overloaded, and fire when I want it.

2 notes: Use Federation EMP L for your ammo, and only put 16 rounds in your ship. You only need one volley, and you'll seldom survive long enough to even use the second volley's ammo. Second, while it may be POSSIBLE to fit a T1 indy to survive that, in practice I haven't seen it. This guy fit a Dread Invuln Field and look how much good it did him. The damage required to pop his ship was still less than half of the damage I'm putting down in one volley.

Good hunting o7

Cipher Jones wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
Ganking is for knuckle draggers that cant work the market tab.


Ganking is for whoever understands the mechanics. I think you're just pissed that knuckle draggers can make enough money on the market to afford sustained ganking.

Money on the market? If you are patient and ganking with purpose, you can make a killing being a full time ganker. A. Killing. Literally and figuratively.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-01-16 00:34:32 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Well... how about just splitting the loot one way?

I use a tornado and have just gotten into suicide ganking solo (with alt to scoop loot, of course). It's great. I can't believe I didn't start doing this years ago! I found a super high volley damage fit and modified it to make it as cheap as possible to operate.

High:
8x 1400mm Prototype Siege Cannon
Mid:
3x Sensor Booster II w/ targeting script
PL-0 Shipment Probe
Tracking Computer II w/ script
Low:
4x Gyrostabilizer II
Rigs:
Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I

I target T1 indys only (sometimes I'll take a chance on a blockade runner if bored). So far I haven't seen a T1 indy that can survive a single volley of fire. That means you can gank in any system and CONCORD on the gate isn't really an issue. That's also why there's no ship scanner there... I don't care what they mounted to the ship. It doesn't matter. They die anyway. All I care about is the cargo scan, keep my weapons overloaded, and fire when I want it.

2 notes: Use Federation EMP L for your ammo, and only put 16 rounds in your ship. You only need one volley, and you'll seldom survive long enough to even use the second volley's ammo. Second, while it may be POSSIBLE to fit a T1 to survive that, in practice I haven't seen it.

Good hunting o7

Cipher Jones wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
Ganking is for knuckle draggers that cant work the market tab.


Ganking is for whoever understands the mechanics. I think you're just pissed that knuckle draggers can make enough money on the market to afford sustained ganking.

Money on the market? If you are patient and ganking with purpose, you can make a killing being a full time ganker. A. Killing. Literally and figuratively.



That's awesome advice, thank you for that. And I have been hearing a lot of good things about the Tornado. From what I've seen; when it's fit properly, it can withstand pretty much anything thrown at it. I'm going to look into that and see what I need for mastery of that. And I think you put it very well when you stated, "when you're ganking with purpose"... Very well put.
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#74 - 2014-01-16 01:00:25 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
That's awesome advice, thank you for that. And I have been hearing a lot of good things about the Tornado. From what I've seen; when it's fit properly, it can withstand pretty much anything thrown at it. I'm going to look into that and see what I need for mastery of that. And I think you put it very well when you stated, "when you're ganking with purpose"... Very well put.


There's so much volley damage with this fit you don't need to master much to be really effective. The difference between mastery to 3 and mastery to 5 is going to be like a 98% vs a 99% success rate.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2014-01-16 01:03:59 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
That's awesome advice, thank you for that. And I have been hearing a lot of good things about the Tornado. From what I've seen; when it's fit properly, it can withstand pretty much anything thrown at it. I'm going to look into that and see what I need for mastery of that. And I think you put it very well when you stated, "when you're ganking with purpose"... Very well put.


There's so much volley damage with this fit you don't need to master much to be really effective. The difference between mastery to 3 and mastery to 5 is going to be like a 98% vs a 99% success rate.



Sounds like a great route to take. Definitely looking into it.
Paranoid Loyd
#76 - 2014-01-16 01:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Gogela wrote:
I use a tornado

There are cheaper ways that are less SP dependent and nearly as effective considering anyone foolish enough to put gank bait in their T1 has probably also anti-tanked their ship (cargo expanders and cargohold optimization rigs), but Nado is more or less the fail-safe way to go.

Gogela wrote:
So far I haven't seen a T1 indy that can survive a single volley of fire.

There are most definitely fits that can, but anyone smart enough to fit their ship with a tank that can survive a nado volley is also most likely smart enough to not put gank bait in their T1 hauler.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Tuk'ata Rucor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-01-16 01:58:08 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I use a tornado

There cheaper ways that are less SP dependent and nearly as effective considering anyone foolish enough to put gank bait in their T1 has probably also anti-tanked their ship (cargo expanders and cargohold optimization rigs), but Nado is more or less the fail-safe way to go.

Gogela wrote:
So far I haven't seen a T1 indy that can survive a single volley of fire.

There are most definitely fits that can, but anyone smart enough to fit their ship with a tank that can survive a nado volley is also most likely smart enough to not put gank bait in their T1 hauler.


Are you meaning, there are cheaper ships and fits that require less SP to do the same damage as he mentioned?
Paranoid Loyd
#78 - 2014-01-16 02:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:

Are you meaning, there are cheaper ships and fits that require less SP to do the same damage as he mentioned?

They will not do the same damage, the point is that 9 times out of 10 a Nado volley is complete overkill when targeting T1 haulers. Most anti-tanked T1s are less than 2500 hp

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#79 - 2014-01-16 02:09:58 UTC
Tuk'ata Rucor wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I use a tornado

There cheaper ways that are less SP dependent and nearly as effective considering anyone foolish enough to put gank bait in their T1 has probably also anti-tanked their ship (cargo expanders and cargohold optimization rigs), but Nado is more or less the fail-safe way to go.

Gogela wrote:
So far I haven't seen a T1 indy that can survive a single volley of fire.

There are most definitely fits that can, but anyone smart enough to fit their ship with a tank that can survive a nado volley is also most likely smart enough to not put gank bait in their T1 hauler.


Are you meaning, there are cheaper ships and fits that require less SP to do the same damage as he mentioned?


You can do it in a Thrasher, yes.

Not "the same damage", (as the alpha strike of a Tornado is really frikkin high) but enough to get the job done if you pick your targets.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#80 - 2014-01-16 02:40:03 UTC
the question is alright and the answer is yes.

yes