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Orca: Maint Bay Change + Ore Hold Buff
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Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#21 - 2014-01-16 11:31:32 UTC
i only read half the first line and i know all of it is a bad idea. The orca has been used by pirates (griefing is against the rules) since it first came out and i'd dare say it's used for that reason more often than it's used to move minerals around. Just because you don't like it and you want high sec to be nice and safe don't mean you should go around trying to get other peoples toys broken you're a naughty boy now stop it.
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-01-16 12:21:18 UTC
Well the carrot and stick doesn't seem to work in this context. Griefers wanna grief after all.

Many wont know that I am the opposite of a carebear hidden behind this alt, but thats not of interest. What is, is the newer, better aggression transfer mechanic that came in letting us attack remote reppers etc from those out of corp alts.

Whats wrong with the orca? It the laughable mining gangs with an orca and freighter in a belt - doing the heavy lifting of ore - the orca just cant - its left with a shockingly low amount of ore space for a support ship that shines when there are more than 2 hulks being boosted. Its poor for small gang, and poor for medium, and poor for large - thats what freighters are for.

As for griefing. Its ALWAYS against numpties and noobs who dont know the mechanics, or dont know consequences, who cant wardec, and cant attack the parties involved in the case of orcas providing maint bay support. The quick switching means they cant even deal with those they are most interested in killing. Attack the remote reppers and watch them instaswitch to combat ships ... its laughable. Meanwhile the facilitator of the fun (its an alt, so its the griefers fun) gets key assistance from a character who suffers no consequences - just like the good old days.

Dont nerf the orca - fine - leave it or please improve its ore bay for medium gang assistance.

Do fix the orca - make it gain aggro from those who use it with aggro.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-01-16 12:40:31 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Well the carrot and stick doesn't seem to work in this context. Griefers wanna grief after all.

Many wont know that I am the opposite of a carebear hidden behind this alt, but thats not of interest. What is, is the newer, better aggression transfer mechanic that came in letting us attack remote reppers etc from those out of corp alts.

Whats wrong with the orca? It the laughable mining gangs with an orca and freighter in a belt - doing the heavy lifting of ore - the orca just cant - its left with a shockingly low amount of ore space for a support ship that shines when there are more than 2 hulks being boosted. Its poor for small gang, and poor for medium, and poor for large - thats what freighters are for.

As for griefing. Its ALWAYS against numpties and noobs who dont know the mechanics, or dont know consequences, who cant wardec, and cant attack the parties involved in the case of orcas providing maint bay support. The quick switching means they cant even deal with those they are most interested in killing. Attack the remote reppers and watch them instaswitch to combat ships ... its laughable. Meanwhile the facilitator of the fun (its an alt, so its the griefers fun) gets key assistance from a character who suffers no consequences - just like the good old days.

Dont nerf the orca - fine - leave it or please improve its ore bay for medium gang assistance.

Do fix the orca - make it gain aggro from those who use it with aggro.




Such an approach causes more problems than it fixes(Up to and including wrongful aggression from someone going weapons free then switching ships before the pilot can react).


I think the approach you're looking for is this:

Prevent switching of ships while weapons timer is active. A barge can still defend itself from belt rats with its drones this way, as they don't get a weapons timer(the 1 minute timer that cools down after you aggro, that prevents you from jumping gates or docking). A barge can also switch between the barge and a t1 logi for anti-gank defense of a bro, or quick market run frigate, or Ore hauler. He can't, however, be a bait procurer, get quick point, wait on his bro to switch to 'X' then switch to 'Y' himself. Or attack someone on a low -> High gate, decide it's too much, quick switch, jump the orca to safety and then his noob ship warps out.

This also keeps the timer localized to the pilot aggressing, without aggro'ing potentially half the fleet. It's possible I've overlooked something, and I don't really think it needs to change, but, if there were going to be a change, this would be a better way of going about it.


As far as larger ore hold...... I can't agree with you there. The Orca isn't the Rorqual. The Rorqual is designed to sit there and accidentally the whole belt. The Orca isn't. Orca has ~140k storage space: 50 in the ore hold, 50 in the cargo(dependent on fit) and 40 in the fleet hangar. It's job is not to haul massive quantities of ore to and fro. It's job is to be the Base of Operations in an Op. Someone else is supposed to haul. It stays on field, boosts the crap out of the barges/exhumers, provides localized support for fitting, crystals, and boosts, and also a sort of shipping dock for the haulers to collect from, rather than going from can to can to can. If one is going to insist on hauling with an Orca, then you really should have 2 Orca's. 1 to Base off of, the other to haul. Otherwise, use a Miasmos. It's Ore hold is larger than the orca's fleet hangar, so should have little trouble keeping up with the hulk's with plenty of buffer storage in the Orca's ore hold and cargo bay.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Mr Blah Blahson
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-01-16 13:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Blah Blahson
When the gankers come, why not switch your mining fleet into Ibis? Let them have fun shooting your Ibis fleet :P. If you are scared they will shoot down the Orca, fit webs onto the Ibis. You can instawebwarp your Orca out =).

I agree it needs a bigger orebay. However I don't have a problem with gankers using it to their advantage. Emergent gameplay.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#25 - 2014-01-16 14:19:33 UTC
A better solution: Orca inherits all timers from people who use its facilities.

This includes PVE log off timers, PVP log off timers, Weapons timers, Suspect timers, Criminal timers and Limited Engagement timers. All the timers. I seriously want to gank me some orca.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-01-16 14:40:08 UTC
Fundamentally, the proposed change in the OP will break more than it fixes. There would have to be a means in place to transport fitted ships from place to place before that ability gets taken away from the Orca. Restriction to mining ships may work with the Rorqual, but that's only because anywhere a Rorqual can go, a standard carrier can go; there's no equivalent to a standard carrier for hisec ... except for the Orca itself.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-01-16 14:47:06 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
A better solution: Orca inherits all timers from people who use its facilities.

This includes PVE log off timers, PVP log off timers, Weapons timers, Suspect timers, Criminal timers and Limited Engagement timers. All the timers. I seriously want to gank me some orca.



As worthy a notion as ganking Orca's is, the objective is balance.


'Orca pilot: Guys, check out this thread... Oh crap my dog just barfed on the floor, brb 1 min'

'Opportunist Hulk: *Switch to atron in Orca fleet hangar, Shoot neighboring Hulk, switch back.*

'Opportunist Hulk's friend waiting patiently in talos: *Warp in, gank now suspect Orca*'

'Orca Pilot returning: WTF!'



That's not balance. Yeah, a true gank can happen at any time. But an aggression exploit like that is not cool.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-01-16 14:51:24 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
A better solution: Orca inherits all timers from people who use its facilities.

This includes PVE log off timers, PVP log off timers, Weapons timers, Suspect timers, Criminal timers and Limited Engagement timers. All the timers. I seriously want to gank me some orca.



As worthy a notion as ganking Orca's is, the objective is balance.


'Orca pilot: Guys, check out this thread... Oh crap my dog just barfed on the floor, brb 1 min'

'Opportunist Hulk: *Switch to atron in Orca fleet hangar, Shoot neighboring Hulk, switch back.*

'Opportunist Hulk's friend waiting patiently in talos: *Warp in, gank now suspect Orca*'

'Orca Pilot returning: WTF!'



That's not balance. Yeah, a true gank can happen at any time. But an aggression exploit like that is not cool.


Orca pilot switches to 'green' - flashy cant switch ships. Not rocket science.
Um Winning
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-01-16 17:38:17 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Yes - as expected - dont fix this broken thing - "I use it"

As opposed to the "I can't deal with this / people always getting away waaahh"


Leave my space whale alone, or I'll start sacrificing Noob Ships at the sun!
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#30 - 2014-01-16 17:43:03 UTC
I have three toons dedicated to mining. Two exhumers and an orca. I keep a pair of basilisks in the Orca, and hot-swap the barges for logi whenever I feel threatened, hoping the few extra seconds will delay a gank long enough for concord to arrive. I know other people who run corp mining ops where the bay is filled with EWAR frigates for similar reasons.

I cannot condone any change that would prevent this logical and purely defensive strategy.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-01-16 20:14:00 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
A better solution: Orca inherits all timers from people who use its facilities.

This includes PVE log off timers, PVP log off timers, Weapons timers, Suspect timers, Criminal timers and Limited Engagement timers. All the timers. I seriously want to gank me some orca.



As worthy a notion as ganking Orca's is, the objective is balance.


'Orca pilot: Guys, check out this thread... Oh crap my dog just barfed on the floor, brb 1 min'

'Opportunist Hulk: *Switch to atron in Orca fleet hangar, Shoot neighboring Hulk, switch back.*

'Opportunist Hulk's friend waiting patiently in talos: *Warp in, gank now suspect Orca*'

'Orca Pilot returning: WTF!'



That's not balance. Yeah, a true gank can happen at any time. But an aggression exploit like that is not cool.


Orca pilot switches to 'green' - flashy cant switch ships. Not rocket science.




Apparently it is. If the Orca pilot is green a person can still switch ships in the maintenance bay. Depends on whether his fleet hangar is configured to allow fleet members access or not. That's the problem with Orca getting aggression based on pilots using the fleet hangar/ship maintenance array. Green or otherwise doesn't stop the other pilots from using his bays.

Plus you seem to have missed the part where the Orca pilot in example stepped away from keyboard for just a minute due to an RL distraction.


L2R, then you can talk about Rocket science.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#32 - 2014-01-16 20:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
OP is living up to his name. Don't make my Orca useless to me simply because you can't handle EVE or mission intelligently.

Instead, let's remove the now-obsolete ore bay and increase the volume of the SMA. Or allow the ore bay to also hold refined minerals and ice products. Maybe fuel blocks too.
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