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Defining capital ships
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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-01-15 12:06:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship.
This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.

Basically these ships are capitals:

titans
supers
carriers
dreads
freighters
jump freighters
rorqual

Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.

/thread

There is no Bob.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-01-15 12:08:11 UTC
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.


The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#23 - 2014-01-15 12:09:14 UTC
I dont really see the problem people have with this thread.

Its pretty obvious what its about.

Im sick of having to explain to cry-hards who say "I wasnt talking about CAPS UUUNNNHHHHHHH" that an Orca isnt a cap.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-01-15 12:10:05 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.

it's a hard coded flag, sense has nothing to do with it.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#25 - 2014-01-15 12:10:35 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship.
This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.

Basically these ships are capitals:

titans
supers
carriers
dreads
freighters
jump freighters
rorqual

Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.

/thread



No.

That means its the size of a cap. It doesnt qualify it as a cap

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-01-15 12:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Now of course in the real world capital ships were primarily Battlecruisers and Battleships which are clealry not capital ships in EVE and also tended to be ships that led or in many cases even needed a fleet that supported it. Again not always the case in EVE.

As for EVE .. it is a wee bit confused. For example (and correct me if I am wrong as I never built one) doesn't the Orca require capital construction parts to build ? Yet by the same token the same Orca takes large sized rigs rather than the new capital sized ones that came in with Odyssey.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-01-15 12:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
As for EVE .. it is a wee bit confused. For example (and correct me if I am wrong as I never built one) doesn't the Orca require capital construction parts to build ?

So do black ops.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
I dont really see the problem people have with this thread.

Its pretty obvious what its about.

Im sick of having to explain to cry-hards who say "I wasnt talking about CAPS UUUNNNHHHHHHH" that an Orca isnt a cap.

This is exactly it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-01-15 12:44:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.


The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.


I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-01-15 12:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.


The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.


I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?

No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-01-15 12:50:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.


The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.

But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.


I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?

No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.


Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-01-15 13:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
dexington wrote:
Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships?
A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.

With your definition, we can't say things like "capital ships can't use gates", "capital ships can't enter highsec", "capital ships all have jump drives", "capital ships can fit capital modules", etc. With my definition, all of these statements are true and they're consistent with what all of the attributes of actual capital ships in the game. In addition, CCP's rules for capital ships already in highsec are clearly written with the definition of capital ship that I've given in this thread, as opposed to yours. The only holdout you have is the market categorization and the size, both of which are demonstrably irrelevant.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-01-15 13:08:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:


I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean?

No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.

a whale is a spouting fish with a horizontal tail
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2014-01-15 13:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
dexington wrote:

Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.


Which is totally fine as the orca does not have the cap ship tag so it cannot be DDed.

Also there classed as cap ships so they can only be built in Low sec or null and stuff.. re classing them would mean they can be built in empire space and would need even more dev time to then put another limit on the building of them in empire space.


There is no need to reclassify ships just for the sake of it. Having random things just because we can is fine. You don’t need to be able to put everything in its own special box.

Also I would like my Badger Mk2 back and my lteron Mk 1 2 3 4 5

Who cares about having Nanofibres in hull upgrades and not listed under propulsion upgrades makes sense or not. Why does it have to make sense? Why can you not jump carriers threw gates because it’s Too much mass or something but you can jump a Freighter full of stuff no problem. Why does it have to make sense? Most things don’t like how we fly in a fluid filled space and not real empty space which is why we have things like ship speed limits and the fact that you can ram a Frig into a titan and bump it out the way…. There are many things that don’t make sense but that’s what makes eve special its not perfect. There are things wrong and they make it quirky and stuff.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-15 13:13:08 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships?
A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.


Okay jump freighters are sub caps, that are build from capital components and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships, but are clearly not capital ships... it all makes so much more sense now...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-01-15 13:38:21 UTC
dexington wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
Advanced spaceship command = capital.
Spaceship command = sub capital.

This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule.

Why do you insist that freighters and JF are capital ships?
A definition of capital ship that includes those two classes makes a lot less sense and is significantly less useful to us than if we use the definitions I provided.


Okay jump freighters are sub caps, that are build from capital components

Black ops require capital components as well.

dexington wrote:
and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships,

But not the capital ships skill.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2014-01-15 14:10:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
dexington wrote:
and require advanced spaceship command skill used by capital ships,

But not the capital ships skill.

Yeah, I think the confusing thing there is that we actually have three tiers of “command” skills, but generally only distinguish between two groups.

All three of those — Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, Capital Ships — do the same thing: provide an agility bonus for ships in their class (and higher). The last one obviously only affects capital ships, hence the name, and the first one obviously affects all spaceships… but that middle tier is the odd one out. It has no distinct class attached to it; it's mainly used as a time sink secondary prereq for larger-than-battleship-sized ships; and as an encore, I seem to recall that it is now rendered completely useless at lvl I–IV (since all freighters now require it at V to train their respective skilsl).

So the only question there is whether “advanced” ships are caps or subcaps, and the fact that none of these ships exhibit any of the characteristics of the ships that are subject to the capship limitations (or advantages) and that there is a distinction between “advanced” and “capital” skills to begin with seems to suggest that they're not meant to be the same.
Julius Rigel
#37 - 2014-01-15 14:16:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
People don't search market categories based upon lore, they search based upon the intended use of the module. If you want to make your ship faster and more agile, you'd probably think to look in propulsion upgrades first, which is where the nanofibers should be.
Tough cookies, that's how the market is arranged. Same way PLEX falls under "trade goods", even though nobody is going to think to themselves "I need some more game time, I guess the first place I'll look is next to the fedos and passengers". If this were FAID, and you had a well-formulated proposal, I'd tell you it makes perfect sense, in your new envisioned system, to put the nanofibers next to the overdrives and istabs.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command.
That's what I said, isn't it? Capital ships are any and all and only the ships that require the "Capital Ships" skill.

Do YOU like to undock?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-01-15 14:33:38 UTC
Julius Rigel wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command.
That's what I said, isn't it? Capital ships are any and all and only the ships that require the "Capital Ships" skill.

So you agree with me. I was under the impression you were trying to make a counter argument and failing.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-01-15 15:06:00 UTC
could someone tell me what the new mats for building freighters and jump freighters will be?
or is the existance of all those capital parts inconvienient to this argument about pointless categorisation?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-01-15 15:46:20 UTC
It's not a useful tool for categorization, because black ops also require some capital parts and I think we can all agree those are not capital ships.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)