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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Mah Boobz
Doomheim
#1781 - 2014-01-21 15:01:46 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
Here's an idea to "compensate the high sec mission runners".

ESS, rather than being seeded on the market directly, comes from LP stores and requires a minimum standing of 5.0 with the corp to buy it.

Could be made available from all high sec NPC corps (so not pirates/soe) such you could choose whose LP you are getting.

By requiring standing as well as LP it gives a small boon to mission runners as not everyone has 5.0 with every faction.

The LP sink (along with ISK sink) would offset some of the LP generated in this new deployable.

Becomes semi-renewable for the null-bear by means of LP able to buy a new one if the old one gets bust, so long as they had the standing in the first place (used to run missions).

Just a thought.


Lets take something that's already too complicated and make it even more complicated!
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1782 - 2014-01-21 15:03:51 UTC
Paging Dinsdale to this thread.

In all seriousness, this looks quite a bit better than the first iteration. Seems like it provides good enough incentive to actually use the module, which has the potential for interesting interaction between players across multiple paths. Some of that may be a little forced (such as the influx of navy LP that will happen), but i still think it's good overall.

Definitely interested to see how it turns out if you launch with this version.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1783 - 2014-01-21 15:04:26 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
War Kitten wrote:


So accessing the ESS now points you. Is it like a dictor's infinipoint, or will warp core stabs help?
Will it prevent MWD or MJD?
If you move out of range of the ESS, do you become unpointed, or are you stuck there until the timer runs out?


Regarding the warp disruption effect, we're still tweaking the effect, so it's not 100% set right now, but most likely will be similar to infinity point that does not prevent MWD or MJD.

Regarding moving out of range, this stops you interacting with the ESS (resetting the timer), so the effect stops.


and how far away can you deploy the new mobile mjd deployable from the ESS?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1784 - 2014-01-21 15:09:03 UTC
Wow. I am pleasantly surprised to see these changes. Thank you, CCP -- this is a marked improvement over the old design and provides a great compromise between the differing viewpoints on this issue. There's the great possibility of "meta" and faction variants of the ESS that have different properties, too (like hacking, or pirate LP.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Primus Fortune
Legion Ascending
Fraternity.
#1785 - 2014-01-21 15:09:45 UTC
Better cash in your Lp now faction ship price are gonna drop like a stone. In before faction domi's are a fleet doc lol
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1786 - 2014-01-21 15:09:50 UTC
It just occurred to me. Are these still NPC made? Can we get these blueprinted and player made?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1787 - 2014-01-21 15:10:40 UTC
Primus Fortune wrote:
Better cash in your Lp now faction ship price are gonna drop like a stone. In before faction domi's are a fleet doc lol


Navy domis are worse than normal domis in most cases, and will be made even worse after the omnidirectional change in 1.1
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1788 - 2014-01-21 15:10:40 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Paging Dinsdale to this thread.


OMG that's going to be epic when he finds out that the null sec cartels had a secret meeting with CCP and the end result was the screwing of high sec...

Twisted
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1789 - 2014-01-21 15:11:26 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:

* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.


Is this "normal ISK reward" 100% of current bounties or still 95%? Is the 20% ISK payout still stored in the ESS? If so is it ISK or LP that is stolen?

CCP SoniClover wrote:

* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.


Is this instead of or in addition to the disruption bubble?
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1790 - 2014-01-21 15:11:44 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
Here's an idea to "compensate the high sec mission runners".

ESS, rather than being seeded on the market directly, comes from LP stores and requires a minimum standing of 5.0 with the corp to buy it.

Could be made available from all high sec NPC corps (so not pirates/soe) such you could choose whose LP you are getting.

By requiring standing as well as LP it gives a small boon to mission runners as not everyone has 5.0 with every faction.

The LP sink (along with ISK sink) would offset some of the LP generated in this new deployable.

Becomes semi-renewable for the null-bear by means of LP able to buy a new one if the old one gets bust, so long as they had the standing in the first place (used to run missions).

Just a thought.

In regards to them coming from LP stores I actually like that as it's another tie in where everyone in EVE effects everyone without having to directly be involved with each other.

I would still put forward my argument that the ESS should run off it's own LP and LP Store so that CCP can better balance the ISK/LP ratios of the NullSec LP and not cause any dramatic effects on the LP of a NPC corp already in the game. This would also let CCP hand pick which items the NullSec LP can be spent on if they want to keep some items at higher values.
As others have stated L5 missions are already suffering enough from FW and L4 LP there isn't a need to further decrease their LP values by having people farming LP in NullSec able to buy all Navy LP items it will cause the value of everything but industrial implants to go down.

My idea works better with an implementation of an LP store in NullSec however (something others have already stated may not be possible) so the items on that specific LP list can be tailored to the things NullSec groups want easier access to in their space, Implants etc.

The current Navy LP stores are the same as all Combat LP stores (to my knowledge) meaning we would see all combat modules, combat implants, and skill books drop in value making the Industrial NPC corps much more viable to mission for.

FW is pretty much safe from this change due to their FW LP only items (implants, drones, cheaper ships).

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#1791 - 2014-01-21 15:19:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Destoya wrote:
Paging Dinsdale to this thread.


OMG that's going to be epic when he finds out that the null sec cartels had a secret meeting with CCP and the end result was the screwing of high sec...

Twisted



Nah, the end result was that CCP decided to yet again launch a personal attack on Dinsdale. Lol

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1792 - 2014-01-21 15:19:35 UTC
The changes make this thing a lot better.

But I still wish developers would spend time fixing known broken stuff.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1793 - 2014-01-21 15:21:08 UTC
Primus Fortune wrote:
Better cash in your Lp now faction ship price are gonna drop like a stone. In before faction domi's are a fleet doc lol

I don't think this will be the case. Currently most L4 mission runners don't use their LP on ships because they don't have a great ISK/LP ratio due to FW having the discount on all faction ships.
Normally from the combat stores you will see people selling tanking and damage modules as these still have an okay LP/ISK ratio.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Darth Kilth
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1794 - 2014-01-21 15:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Kilth
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Adding a third form of distribution currency doesn't alleviate any of my complaints: that it's too complicated/convoluted.

It just makes it more complex. Coupled with the fact that it puts the LP in the can and not in my wallet is a slam dunk for fail.

Why would I have my /loyalty points/ put in a can? That goes against the entire premise of LP - that they are an untradable good, and represent services rendered to a specific faction.

Pressing the "take all" button does not to me sound like a service rendered.

I still can't figure out how such an idea actually made it this far...

I read this as the loyalty points are not in the can, they are awarded directly to you.


This is correct. The LP goes directly to the wallets of each pilot as they get their isk ticks.
Wait wait wait, hold on.

So what you're saying is, LP goes directly to those Ratting and thus can not be stolen by those using the ESS?
or
LP is stored in the system wide pool just like the ISK and is Directly added to the wallet of the ratters or the thief as soon as either option on the ESS is used?


I still think the ESS is kind of useless and the time being put in it could have been put in better things, but at least it sounds a bit better now.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1795 - 2014-01-21 15:24:02 UTC
So, assuming 10% of the nullsec ratters have one of these up....How much new Navy LP will be added to the game?

There were some numbers posted earlier in the thread.

It seems like this could add a metric crapload of LP to the game even assuming only a small percentage of ratters use it.
Viceorvirtue
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#1796 - 2014-01-21 15:28:16 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Here's a quick update on the changes we've made to the ESS, based on testing and feedback. There is a dev blog coming out tomorrow detailing these (and other changes) to the deployables in 1.1, but here's a basic overview.

Additions/edit
* With an active ESS in system, bounties pay out LP in addition to normal ISK reward. LP reward starts at 0.15 LP per 1000 ISK and can increase to 0.2 LP per 1000 ISK as the bonus payout increases. As an example, a bounty worth 1 million ISK (total) gives between 150 and 200 LPs, based on payout level. This is to address the risk vs. reward concerns. Thanks to those that suggested using LPs instead of ISK for balance.
* There is now no timer to open the ESS window where the player gets to choose to Share or Take all, but both options now have separate timers on them. Share has 20 seconds, Take all has 180 seconds. Moving out of range while the timer is ongoing resets the timer. This is to reduce the feasibility of having an alt sit at the ESS and quickly empty the pool when someone shows up.
* Interacting with the ESS now puts a warp disruption effect on the ship interacting with it. Ships immune to bubbles are not immune to this effect. This is to reduce the feasibility of using ships immune to bubbles for stealing purposes.

Also, some of the stats have changed:
* Price lowered from 30 million to 25 million
* Hit points increased from 150k to 250k
* Volume increased from 150 to 200
* Increased minimum range from stargates/stations to 3000 km, from 300.
* Activation time increased to 120 seconds, up from 60 seconds

Some of these changes are already out on Sisi, the rest should be there soon. Thank you all for your feedback.




Speaking as one of the worst offenders from when you initially buffed fw (even after nerfing it I can still get several hundred mission isk per mission cycle at tier 4) I can only support this change. I highly suggest you make it similar to concord lp so you can turn it into any lp store because that would really be balanced for everyone and wont cause significant personal wealth generation. Nope, not one bit.

Speaking as someone who still thinks the lp from lvl 4 fw missions needs to be cut by like 50%, I can see a couple ways this could result in interesting economic impacts but I am for more interested in seeing these things pan out than trying to make changes that might prevent them.
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1797 - 2014-01-21 15:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
Darth Kilth wrote:
Wait wait wait, hold on.

So what you're saying is, LP goes directly to those Ratting and thus can not be stolen by those using the ESS?
or
LP is stored in the system wide pool just like the ISK and is Directly added to the wallet of the ratters or the thief as soon as either option on the ESS is used?


I still think the ESS is kind of useless and the time being put in it could have been put in better things, but at least it sounds a bit better now.

It goes to the ESS but when you claim at the ESS it goes to your journal instead of printing tags, at least that's how I interpreted it.
You'll still be able to steal the LP but you wont need to make a break for it in your ship with the LP in you cargo.

Which does bring the problem CCP of people using disposable newbie alts to try and steal the LP. Please add the hacking game so people need to bring a specific kind of ship to actually achieve this goal rather than newbie ships and pods (which admittedly we can just kill)

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
1Robert McNamara1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1798 - 2014-01-21 15:37:08 UTC
Initially I liked these. But after a lot of internal discussion I've been made to realize that these add 'fiddly' to an activity that's very straight forward.

PVE is one of the least complicated actions and most readily adopted in the player base. This item goes against that so much that PVE in NPC space will be completely different than PVE in Sov space. Totally different fits and behavior. Currently Null sec PVE is a nice progression from NPC space, just need better fits, a scout network, and all those things you should have anyway.

Likewise the risk/reward for all parties was out of wack. Even with the new system they're off. The ratters used to have = footing vs. the thief. now they have it too good. And there's nothing anyone can do to improve their chances. No SP and no pilot skill will effect that playing ground.


Here's an alternate approach:

ESS stats:
30m price tag
HP set to ~150k (resistance holes based on faction used)

ESS is a beacon for empires to monitor activity and reward good behavior.
- That reward comes automatically in 2 hour ticks.
- if the ESS is destroyed all payout is now loot in the form of tickets.

The EHP is high enough to require the thief risk something of value.
The ratters could interrupt the thief, remote rep the structure, or take it off line.
The Cost is high enough that ratters don't want to be replacing these all the time, but do need them to stay deployed for at least 2 hours to get their payout.
It engages the PVP timer. This is PVP and should be treated as such.

Notes:
It requires everyone to risk something in order to gain. In all cases smart playing and decent skills are useful at improving chances.

It gives small gangs a reason to go to Sov Null space and harass ratters.
It gives ratters a reason to undock in PVP fleets when reds come.
It is simpler to use and won't require an extensive wiki page to describe.
Numbers help both sides but large raiding fleets will be cumbersome to manage payouts and the risked asset is not so high that defense fleets need to be giant either (no sense risking billions in fleet assets to save millions in ratter income)


Please give us a simpler route to content creation. the current item does not encourage group play and makes ratting in Sov space too much like busy work.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1799 - 2014-01-21 15:41:08 UTC
Turelus wrote:
* Will there still be a 95%/80% drop in bounties or are all the bounties changes stripped now this is an LP module.
+1 for this question.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1800 - 2014-01-21 15:47:12 UTC
I can seethe future. ESS gets deployed, hostile comes in trying to steal, friendly dude warps to a spot 130km from the ESS in a "nothing but sensor boosters and target painters" maelstrom and blaps him while yelling "get off my porch" in local, then back to ratting lol.

[Maelstrom, ESS Driveby Flyswatter]
Signal Amplifier II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II
Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Targeting System Subcontroller I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller I
Large Polycarbon Engine Housing I