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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1581 - 2014-01-17 23:34:58 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:


Right. CCP obviously is nerfing ratting only because they want people to use the EES.Lol



they have said as much in this very thread
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1582 - 2014-01-17 23:40:11 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Ill say this again - the ESS needs to have a very long online time (like say, 20-30 minutes) to allow a defense gang to form. If the defense gang fails, then the ESS should be active for at least 1-2 days (give it a reinforcement timer, and have it keep leeching bounties)

This makes it work very well as a "come and fight us" tool, and give a 2nd arranged fight as well (fighting over taking the isk)


Your design has several flaws:

a.) You operate an EU timezone corp. I then have my aussie or US squadron RF the ESS when you aren't even online. Suddenly your system is suffering heavy ratting penalties if you want to rat... not to mention if the ESS RF timer comes out during a non-EU timezone, you will lose out on the isk to boot.

b.) People generally wont rat if an enemy has RF one of these in system.

Generally speaking, anything gives the opponent more than 20 minutes to "form up and defend it" very quickly escalates beyond small gang. One of the premises of farms and fields are that small gangs can raid them.

In general, RF timers insure large responses, which is NOT the intention behind this module.


A) Expand your corp to cover multiple TZ. Or share your system with people who use it when you arent there. Or if I am the one placing it, I accept that not every ESS will result in a fight, any more than camping the locals into their station for an hour will result in a fight.
B) Thats the point. If you dont stop it from onlining, you lose a system to rat in for 1-2 days.
C) I was on a roam today where we tackled 3 carriers, and fought the enemy corp for over an hour. We had 15 people, no logi. 20 minutes is a very fair time to allow people to form up, and is also enough time to fly around enemy space, seed a bunch of them, and then collect fights on the way back out. I dont really see people forming up more aggressively in 20 minutes over an ESS, than they would with an hour over 3 carriers.



i love how your small gang solution requires smaller groups to become large entities. you make tons of sense /s please carry on.
Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1583 - 2014-01-18 00:39:09 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the coming point release EVE Online: Rubicon 1.1 we will add more deployable structures:

  • Two new siphon variants, one to more efficiently stealing refined components and one to steal polymers
  • One unit to be deployable in nullsec called Encounter Surveillance System (ESS)


The bounties in Nullsec are lowered by 5%. An active ESS lowers the bounty payout even more down to a total of -20%. Interacting then with the ESS gives you back between 20% and 25% so that you end up with 100% to 105% bounty of the current bounty value. Interacting with the ESS will allow you then to cash in the collected bounties in form of tags which can be sold to the Empires. You can choose to take all the bounties for yourself or share the bounties amongst every contributor.

Please read the latest blog by CCP SoniClover which contains all the details about those new structures!


"Do you even play this game"?
Shokubai
Plus 10 NV
#1584 - 2014-01-18 00:54:08 UTC
I have a great idea. Lets make ratting in nullsec harder to do, and overall pay out less. While we are at it lets give interceptor pilots the chance to steal 20% of the isk i worked for just for warping to an ESS that's lit up like a christmas tree.

My first read was hey that might be cool. The more i think about it the more i thing "CCP wants more people in High Sec".

I cant speak for everybody but I consider this whole thing a 5% net loss in income. Most systems that are anywhere close to unfriendly space just wont bother risking 20% for a possible 5% gain.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1585 - 2014-01-18 01:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyn Pharoh
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

We are both wrong. The new base payout is 95 of stated payouts. That is the baseline for determining the reward of the device.
So, killing 100m worth of NPC's will net you 95m isk without this device.
With this device, you earn 80m isk off the bat, and risk 15m isk.
The device then pays out 20-25m isk when instructed to do so.

So, you risk 15, and get payed 20-25.
Alternatively, you could say you risk 15m isk to gain an extra 5-10m isk.


I am going to take this slowly.

Today, if I kill a 100k isk bounty rat, I get 100k.

In a post ESS world, I will shoot the same rat, it still says 100k and either suck up a 5% loss or...

I deploy an ESS that withholds 20% of what the rat bounty shows. I receive 80k isk, and the ESS withholds 15k isk from the 95k that would have come to me directly, and 5k isk that I would have gotten the day before the ESS world began. I directly risk 15k isk of immediate return, and the 5k isk carrot hidden within the box I have invested 30mil isk into, in the hopes that I will just break even, according to how well the system worked in the pre-ESS world. That 5k hidden in the box is just there to keep me at break even, while I grind off the cost of my new 'upgrade'. It can not be discounted. Its 20% at risk for an eventual, potential 5% reward, since I'm not going to forget how things worked before this 'added content' rolls out.

Imagine me waving a cane and ranting...I remember Sonny, The Good Ole days when bounties were REAL bounties, and not this namby pamby credit system cooked up as a plot by the Empires to leach pilots back into comfy ole 'High Security Space'. I'll give you High Security all right...Where was Concord when that 'nado gang suicide ganked...fade out camera...

Give me 7.5% reward and 12.5 % in LP and CCP can 'pay' for it by fixing the 100% bounty only rats in Drone Space, and we might get into taking point range just based on the most basic of risk v. reward discussions. I expect others would want a lot more than that.

I'm going to have to look into the m3 on this thing, but that's a lot of HP in armor and structure to fit in my back pocket. What do we get from refinery? Will it be a new and exciting way to use raw isk for mineral compression? Guess we could always use more trit in Null anyways.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1586 - 2014-01-18 02:20:04 UTC
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

We are both wrong. The new base payout is 95 of stated payouts. That is the baseline for determining the reward of the device.
So, killing 100m worth of NPC's will net you 95m isk without this device.
With this device, you earn 80m isk off the bat, and risk 15m isk.
The device then pays out 20-25m isk when instructed to do so.

So, you risk 15, and get payed 20-25.
Alternatively, you could say you risk 15m isk to gain an extra 5-10m isk.


I am going to take this slowly.

Today, if I kill a 100k isk bounty rat, I get 100k.

In a post ESS world, I will shoot the same rat, it still says 100k and either suck up a 5% loss or...

I deploy an ESS that withholds 20% of what the rat bounty shows. I receive 80k isk, and the ESS withholds 15k isk from the 95k that would have come to me directly, and 5k isk that I would have gotten the day before the ESS world began. I directly risk 15k isk of immediate return, and the 5k isk carrot hidden within the box I have invested 30mil isk into, in the hopes that I will just break even, according to how well the system worked in the pre-ESS world. That 5k hidden in the box is just there to keep me at break even, while I grind off the cost of my new 'upgrade'. It can not be discounted. Its 20% at risk for an eventual, potential 5% reward, since I'm not going to forget how things worked before this 'added content' rolls out.

Imagine me waving a cane and ranting...I remember Sonny, The Good Ole days when bounties were REAL bounties, and not this namby pamby credit system cooked up as a plot by the Empires to leach pilots back into comfy ole 'High Security Space'. I'll give you High Security all right...Where was Concord when that 'nado gang suicide ganked...fade out camera...

Give me 7.5% reward and 12.5 % in LP and CCP can 'pay' for it by fixing the 100% bounty only rats in Drone Space, and we might get into taking point range just based on the most basic of risk v. reward discussions. I expect others would want a lot more than that.

I'm going to have to look into the m3 on this thing, but that's a lot of HP in armor and structure to fit in my back pocket. What do we get from refinery? Will it be a new and exciting way to use raw isk for mineral compression? Guess we could always use more trit in Null anyways.


You don't include the universal bounty nerf that exists completely independent of the ESS when looking at the profitability of the ESS.

To put it in perspective:
Imagine you run a snow removal service.
Today you get paid 100 bucks per hour to remove snow of a lot.
Tomorrow, because of changes to the business environment, you only get paid 95 bucks for removing snow off that same lot.
Tomorrow, a new snowplow comes on the market. To rent this snowplow costs 15 bucks per hour to rent, but your new hourly income will net 100 bucks an hour (including rental cost). Is it profitable to use?

You don't look at the, but back in the good old days I was paid 100 bucks an hour, so the new snowplow isn't profitable to use cause I'm still only making 100 bucks an hour. You compare present values...
Fix Sov
#1587 - 2014-01-18 02:27:40 UTC
Nice rewrite of history there.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1588 - 2014-01-18 03:35:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
To put it in perspective:
Imagine you run a snow removal service.
Today you get paid 100 bucks per hour to remove snow of a lot.
Tomorrow, because of changes to the business environment, you only get paid 95 bucks for removing snow off that same lot.
Tomorrow, a new snowplow comes on the market. To rent this snowplow costs 15 bucks per hour to rent, but your new hourly income will net 100 bucks an hour (including rental cost). Is it profitable to use?


Wait, what?

First of all, there are no snowplows in Somalia. Wrong climate. Second of all, your plowtruck is going to get swarmed by people with AK47's, and stolen. You yourself will probably get away because you have a clone back in northern Canada or wherever you live that is making you compare snowplow trucks to EVE.
Wyn Pharoh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1589 - 2014-01-18 04:23:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Wyn Pharoh wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

We are both wrong. The new base payout is 95 of stated payouts. That is the baseline for determining the reward of the device.
So, killing 100m worth of NPC's will net you 95m isk without this device.
With this device, you earn 80m isk off the bat, and risk 15m isk.
The device then pays out 20-25m isk when instructed to do so.

So, you risk 15, and get payed 20-25.
Alternatively, you could say you risk 15m isk to gain an extra 5-10m isk.


I am going to take this slowly.

Today, if I kill a 100k isk bounty rat, I get 100k.

In a post ESS world, I will shoot the same rat, it still says 100k and either suck up a 5% loss or...

I deploy an ESS that withholds 20% of what the rat bounty shows. I receive 80k isk, and the ESS withholds 15k isk from the 95k that would have come to me directly, and 5k isk that I would have gotten the day before the ESS world began. I directly risk 15k isk of immediate return, and the 5k isk carrot hidden within the box I have invested 30mil isk into, in the hopes that I will just break even, according to how well the system worked in the pre-ESS world. That 5k hidden in the box is just there to keep me at break even, while I grind off the cost of my new 'upgrade'. It can not be discounted. Its 20% at risk for an eventual, potential 5% reward, since I'm not going to forget how things worked before this 'added content' rolls out.

Imagine me waving a cane and ranting...I remember Sonny, The Good Ole days when bounties were REAL bounties, and not this namby pamby credit system cooked up as a plot by the Empires to leach pilots back into comfy ole 'High Security Space'. I'll give you High Security all right...Where was Concord when that 'nado gang suicide ganked...fade out camera...

Give me 7.5% reward and 12.5 % in LP and CCP can 'pay' for it by fixing the 100% bounty only rats in Drone Space, and we might get into taking point range just based on the most basic of risk v. reward discussions. I expect others would want a lot more than that.

I'm going to have to look into the m3 on this thing, but that's a lot of HP in armor and structure to fit in my back pocket. What do we get from refinery? Will it be a new and exciting way to use raw isk for mineral compression? Guess we could always use more trit in Null anyways.


You don't include the universal bounty nerf that exists completely independent of the ESS when looking at the profitability of the ESS.

To put it in perspective:
Imagine you run a snow removal service.
Today you get paid 100 bucks per hour to remove snow of a lot.
Tomorrow, because of changes to the business environment, you only get paid 95 bucks for removing snow off that same lot.
Tomorrow, a new snowplow comes on the market. To rent this snowplow costs 15 bucks per hour to rent, but your new hourly income will net 100 bucks an hour (including rental cost). Is it profitable to use?

You don't look at the, but back in the good old days I was paid 100 bucks an hour, so the new snowplow isn't profitable to use cause I'm still only making 100 bucks an hour. You compare present values...

There is NOTHING independent about the universal bounty nerf, separate from introducing the ESS deployable. It's an offset, so far loosely tied to concerns over Isk faucets run amok. Its a stick to hang a carrot from at the very least, and it still totals 20% of what the listed bounty of the rat is. The rat still has 100% bounty. The only thing changed is that I need a prepaid card to access my own money, if you want to keep getting all real life, while I was trying to be somewhat lighthearted. The Lore, man, the lore...Concord tight for cash, Empires kickin' down, but needs dem monitors mon...

The 5% nerf to bounty payouts if no less tied to the ESS than a snowplow is to there actually being snow. To plow.
interesangt
Perkone
Caldari State
#1590 - 2014-01-18 05:19:28 UTC
Not to mention hos the system works today, you get your bountys every 20 mins. So with this new system you have to wait 20 mins after your session is finished to go claim your isk.

So in other terms, if you log off due to rl, you forfit the last 18 mins of bountys which can be claim by anyone..
Mah Boobz
Doomheim
#1591 - 2014-01-18 07:37:15 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Edit: Based on frequent misinterpretations, I want to clarify the statement regarding the amount of ISK entering the game through NPC bounties a bit. This is NOT saying that the amount of ISK is too much and we're using the ESS as a weird nerfing tool of some sort. What is being said is that because the amount of ISK is so high, slight changes up or down makes a huge difference - there are many activities in EVE where the income could be affected by dozens of % and it would just be a blip in the ocean for the economy as a whole, but NPC bounties are not one of them - even a few % points up or down will have ripple effect everywhere in the game. So the point being made is that we have to be careful about altering these amounts.

Turelus wrote:


* Why the 5% loss in bounties instead of just making the module appealing on its own?


Because the ISK coming into the game from Null Sec bounties every day is insane and we want to minimize inflation.

Turelus wrote:

* Why isn't it a seeded BPO/BPC instead of buy it now item?


That is mostly for lore reasons - the empires are coughing up money themselves because they´re hoping to draw null sec pilots back into the fold.


Turelus wrote:

* Why should we risk 20% of our members income for such a small gain?


This is subjective. Some will feel the risk is not worth the gain, some will feel the gain is worth the risk.



Dude, you should totally go into politics with double speak that good. P.T. Barnum would be proud!
Inspiration
#1592 - 2014-01-18 07:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
If they want to limit NPC bounties and create conflict, they should simply make NPCs deplete and a slowly regenerating resource.

This will promote spreading out, limit income per system and give much more interesting conflicts. It is also more real, i always wondered how the NPCs have an unlimited amount of ships...where is their manufacturing based? In the whole plot of EVE they are the thing that least make sense and it is causing problems. CCP tries to combat these with ever more exotic and nonsensical content. It's like trying to make a wrong right by adding many more wrongs...surely that doesn't work very well.

PS. Likewise, missions should be regionally pooled and deplete. Make people compete for a resource instead of auto-instancing the resource on demand.

I am serious!

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#1593 - 2014-01-18 11:01:46 UTC
CCP is probably on weekend now. Can anyone give some odds on CCP answering us Monday?

Say, I'll even start.

CCP pulls the plug on Monday: 1:100.
CCP pulls the plug at all: 1:40.
CCP takes the ESS off Rubicon 1.1: 1:25.

Aren't those fair odds?

Although the "pulls the plug Monday" should probably be 1:250 or something.
Fix Sov
#1594 - 2014-01-18 11:04:48 UTC
CCP won't be pulling the plug on this at all. It's a **** idea, and we haven't gotten a large portion of the hisec community to shoot a statue about it yet, so of course it'll be going in.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Josef Djugashvilis
#1595 - 2014-01-18 13:26:19 UTC
Shokubai wrote:
I have a great idea. Lets make ratting in nullsec harder to do, and overall pay out less. While we are at it lets give interceptor pilots the chance to steal 20% of the isk i worked for just for warping to an ESS that's lit up like a christmas tree.

My first read was hey that might be cool. The more i think about it the more i thing "CCP wants more people in High Sec".

I cant speak for everybody but I consider this whole thing a 5% net loss in income. Most systems that are anywhere close to unfriendly space just wont bother risking 20% for a possible 5% gain.


No thanks.

Hi-sec is already over crowded with null-sec care bears leading the hard life.

This is not a signature.

Ettish Ormsbeast
Ouroboric Absolution
The Commonwealth.
#1596 - 2014-01-18 13:54:44 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
This is definatelly going to give some goals for small gangs. For one I am happy how this feature turned out. Thank you CCP for listening in to CSM feedback.



If the CSM thinks the EES is a good idea, then you guys have lost touch with the player base faster than any CSM to date....
Good job being the fastest at something I guess.....
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1597 - 2014-01-18 14:44:19 UTC
That's something I suppose. They are **** at everything else.
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1598 - 2014-01-18 14:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
CCP Soniclover...... you really are a special snowflake.

To quote you.... "I don't usually respond to inflammatory posts"

Well....when you refuse to acknowledge 800 posts pointing out that your awesome ESS idea is a complete bag of horseshit, you will get some negative posts.

Then you say you are thinking about some changes, none of which address the issue.

Your condescending attitude really is not helping, it's just making things worse, though it's hard to see how that is possible.


So, when did you undock last, and not on SISI ?

You read Hilmar's letter, yes ?

A Humbler, Stronger CCP

I’m sharing these revelations with you now because it’s taken this long to transform them into action. From all this self-reflection, a genesis of renewal has taken root, a personal and professional commitment to restore the partnership of trust upon which our success depends, and a plan that sets the foundation for us to sensibly guide EVE to her fullest potential. In the coming days and weeks, the details of this plan and what it means for you will be unveiled. Part of what led us down this path is the fact we have not communicated well. This blog, and those that will follow, will hopefully demonstrate our conviction to transparency.

Good things are coming. They always do when you learn from your mistakes. In 2007, we faced a similar crisis of confidence, and it resulted in the creation of the CSM. We’re a better company because of it. In the last months, we’ve taken a hard look at everything, including my leadership. What I can say for now is that we’ve taken action to ensure these mistakes are never repeated. We have reexamined our processes, hired experienced industry professionals for key leadership positions, reassessed our priorities, moved personnel around and, above all else, recognized our limitations.

For me, the most frustrating aspect of this is that after all this time, as far as EVE has come and in spite of everything that’s happened, I fervently believe with all my heart that we’ve not even scratched the surface of EVE’s potential. My personal failing is not reconciling that passion with pragmatism. We’ve been trying to expand the EVE universe in several directions at once, and I need to do a better job of pursuing that vision without diluting or marginalizing the things that are great—or could be great—about the game right now. Nullsec space needs to be fixed. Factional warfare needs to be fixed. The game needs new ships. We need to do a better job of nurturing our new players and making EVE the intriguing, boundless universe it has the potential to be.

We really do have something that no one else has. EVE is still unique in the real and virtual world. This is our vision for her, and we want so badly to take you there. But getting there is not an entitlement. It will take hard work, open communication and, above all else, collaboration with you. The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience. When we channel our passion for EVE constructively, we can make this vision a reality together.

But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP w
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1599 - 2014-01-18 15:27:20 UTC
yea, "we will fix null space" was one of those promises, made in 2011 and probly this is how they will fix it; who cares about sov and structure grinding, "we give you ess,msi mmjd"
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#1600 - 2014-01-18 15:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Rommiee wrote:
CCP Soniclover......


This, so much this.

1600 posts (wooh, go me) and you still talk down to the community and still think this is a good idea? I bet you won't even read the 30 pages that will be added onto this thread by monday. You'll just cherry pick one or two responses from people that have no clue what they are talking about (hrm, sound familiar?) and post as if a tweak here or there will magically make this a good idea.
There is not enough fire in the world to burn the ESS down with (and we're talking about a planet with a molten core, here).

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.