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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1181 - 2014-01-16 16:50:14 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!


Why?

Why should people spend their time in game waiting around for you to arrive? Or more accurately, waiting around for you to jump a scout in, change your mind and run away?


Don't be harsh man, I mean, Sirius Fleet and Agony Empire will need to defend their borders and infrastructure just as vigilantly as.. oh, oh, I see.


So, now big alliance arrogance?

As I see it small corporations like mine are an enrichment for this game. We don‘t do sovereignty warfare, this is not our league.

You are allowed to perceive us as brigands, roaming your empire‘s borders. For fun and personal gain. That‘s okay. And you don‘t have to like us for what we‘re doing. But you should really appreciate the existence of banditry in this game. It‘s an enrichment. In the end, this game is about simulated conflict, drama, and social experiments.

But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1182 - 2014-01-16 16:53:06 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Perhaps your right... but solving this is very simple: Increase the reward given by the ESS. If it had 100m in the rat bounty pool, I bet more people would step up. Additionally, ensure that the locals have enough time to actually respond. I'd like to see about 10 minutes before the isk-tag drops, thereby allowing them time to pull in friends nearby, to ship up, and to come out swinging.



wrong:

Andrea Keuvo wrote:


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1183 - 2014-01-16 16:53:16 UTC
Tahnil wrote:

They shouldn‘t. They should do whatever they are doing. But IF somebody shows up, there should be some chance for small scale PvP. Currently there is nearly none at all. There might be a gank, and very rarely some locals decide to fight. But this is only once every five or more small gang roamings.


Ratting is almost purely a money making exercise. If dropping an ESS gives you 10% more income over not dropping an ESS then you need 10 people ratting in a system for every 1 person defending. Space in EVE is almost completely porous so you can't reliably defend borders. This means you need at least 1 defender for every ESS you have so any system unable to support 10 or more ratters at the same time is better off without an ESS (hint: this is all of them).
Zerb Arus
WormSpaceWormS
#1184 - 2014-01-16 16:54:59 UTC
Alphea Abbra wrote:
A very good and long post that I really recommend to read, which can be found in full length here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4116123#post4116123
and hints to Malcanis guidelines for ideas which can be found here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3178202#post3178202

Read It, its really good! I'll wait Smile

The ESS screams: We want to make x number of deploy-able structures that fit the "disruption" theme.
And it seems rather forced at that.
Many of the concerns mentioned in this thread should have come up during design ...

... or maybe they did? link to the minutes
CSM8_August_Summit_Minutes.pdf @ page 42 wrote:
Soniclover moved on to discuss an additional disruption feature. This feature was shelved due to CCP and CSM concerns expressed during the summit, until a more satisfactory solution could be found.

Speaking of minutes and CSM, apart from a nice post from mynna I have not seen much opinions on that matter from the CSM. (maybe I just missed It though) With all that talk about Minutes and CSM accountability I have to say that the current minutes lack meat in that regard.
Its controversial topics like this one, where I'd like to know the standpoint of as many individuals from our elected council as possible.
greiton starfire
Accidentally Hardcore
#1185 - 2014-01-16 16:56:13 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

The other is policing your space. Most nullsec alliances don't bother, as there is nothing out & about that can't get safe quickly, and there is nothing the "small gang raiders" can do to harm your infrastructure. This NEEDs to change! There really should be some **** vulnerable enough for you to police your borders!


Why?

Why should people spend their time in game waiting around for you to arrive? Or more accurately, waiting around for you to jump a scout in, change your mind and run away?


Don't be harsh man, I mean, Sirius Fleet and Agony Empire will need to defend their borders and infrastructure just as vigilantly as.. oh, oh, I see.


So, now big alliance arrogance?

As I see it small corporations like mine are an enrichment for this game. We don‘t do sovereignty warfare, this is not our league.

You are allowed to perceive us as brigands, roaming your empire‘s borders. For fun and personal gain. That‘s okay. And you don‘t have to like us for what we‘re doing. But you should really appreciate the existence of banditry in this game. It‘s an enrichment. In the end, this game is about simulated conflict, drama, and social experiments.

But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.



the problem is your small group is trying to attack a group that by definition must be orders of magnitude larger and better coordinated than you. we don't need better ways to get tiny fights out of massive groups, we need ways for tiny groups to get lots of fights together. ideally pvp should scale up, small in high, medium in low, big in null. so you need to look at ways to get people to actually fight in highsec fleets. be it fleet duels etc. ccp tried to use war decs but that was just a mess.
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1186 - 2014-01-16 16:56:28 UTC
Funny how to you it's "big alliance arrogance" when it reality it's my small band can't form up enough warm bodies to affect sov.

As long as we're getting this out there, let's be brutally honest. I see this as yet another pvper boo hoo because they are not able to make iskies while trying to kill someone else that might be PVE ratting and making them.

How many more advantages would pvp'ers need to feel satisfied? You've got the intro of blops, hot drops, bridging without Titan risk, cheap cloaky pvp setups and a huge advantage in selecting the time place and method of your attack.

And STILL, you cannot find fun in the game? How about this? How about some pvp organizations "nut up" and attempt to take Sov instead of just complaining about it and sitting afk in someone's ratting system 23 hours a day.
Funless Saisima
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1187 - 2014-01-16 16:57:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


If you only have a couple people in system, this is probably indefensible (normally). If you have 20 people in system, then this is probably very defensible. This thereby encourages you to bunch up, which gives you more overall protection, and more overall entertainment in game. At this point, CCP needs only buff some of the mid-level anomalies to be group-oriented activities that pay as well or better than solo running.




The current anom system encourages not working together. If there's 20 people in a system, I choose a different system. A fully upgraded system has 3 forsaken hubs, 1 haven, 1 sanctum, rest are trash. Changing the PVE content to be group-orientated activities for null would require an expansion in itself. I see that happening very soonTM.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1188 - 2014-01-16 16:58:34 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?


1.) It tells you who robbed the ESS. You take care of it the same way you would an AWOXer.

2.) It tells you when yor ESS is being robbed. You take care of it the same way you would a neutral (assuming CCP increases the access timer to something reasonable).

p.s. Drama is a part of EvE. It basically creates conflict and content. You'll cope with it the same way you cope with your alliance mates not delivering your courier package, or AWOXing you, or ...
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1189 - 2014-01-16 17:01:38 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
the problem is that the only ones that actually give a damn if the isk is stolen are the ones ratting, as it is no one is coming to save you in your ratting ship if you get caught, why would they try to save your isk. there is no reason a ratter would use this, the cost is too high. there is no reward. also, there may be more than 5 people in a system but many people go afk in station for hours at a time.


I understand this problem. But I think this may be a problem of corporation or alliance culture. As I know it, corp mates help each other out. I guess there is less familiar atmosphere in a large alliance than in a small scale pvp corporation with 20-50 active pilots in sum.

Don‘t confuse cause and effect. Alliance structure and culture in EVE has developed over time. Nullsec ratters even in the same system act autonomously most of the time. Cause they are doing a solo activity. Therefore they might not be in alliance comms. But if there were incursion-like anomalies in 0.0, they would have to play differently. At the same time, they would have to play differently if there were an ESS like structure, that connects them in a new way with other ratters, like never before. This would change their behaviour over time. At the same time, ratters will have to gang up not only with their mates in the same system, but also create a network with ratters in nearby system. The ratters with the best network would have the best income, because they would get the 5% income buff provided by ESS more often than ratters without this network and good friends, helping each other out.

ESS is just a module, but the idea behind ESS is a challenge of how nullsec ratters perceive their activities in nullsec, and how it relates to intruders. And that‘s a good thing. Things have to be shaken up sometimes. And small gang warfare still needs a lot more buffs.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#1190 - 2014-01-16 17:02:35 UTC
Tahnil wrote:


You are allowed to perceive us as brigands, roaming your empire‘s borders. For fun and personal gain. That‘s okay. And you don‘t have to like us for what we‘re doing. But you should really appreciate the existence of banditry in this game. It‘s an enrichment. In the end, this game is about simulated conflict, drama, and social experiments.

But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.


If you poke a bear with a stick, you shouldn't be surprised it reacts. If you want small gang roams that are fun, SOV nullsec might not be the place you should be looking.

It appears that small gang roams keep bashing their heads against the same rock, unable to see their mistake.

Baddest poster ever

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1191 - 2014-01-16 17:04:13 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?


1.) It tells you who robbed the ESS. You take care of it the same way you would an AWOXer.

2.) It tells you when yor ESS is being robbed. You take care of it the same way you would a neutral (assuming CCP increases the access timer to something reasonable).

p.s. Drama is a part of EvE. It basically creates conflict and content. You'll cope with it the same way you cope with your alliance mates not delivering your courier package, or AWOXing you, or ...

for 1, it's not like one could use an alt.......oh wait.......
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1192 - 2014-01-16 17:04:53 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
The ratters with the best network would have the best income, because they would get the 5% income buff provided by ESS more often than ratters without this network and good friends, helping each other out.


No, they wouldn't. Because a 5% income buff means you need to have 20 people ratting per ESS in order to make it worthwhile over just not deploying one. Putting that many people in one system drops all of their income way below highsec level 4s. At that point they just won't be there.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#1193 - 2014-01-16 17:05:56 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?


1.) It tells you who robbed the ESS. You take care of it the same way you would an AWOXer.

2.) It tells you when yor ESS is being robbed. You take care of it the same way you would a neutral (assuming CCP increases the access timer to something reasonable).

p.s. Drama is a part of EvE. It basically creates conflict and content. You'll cope with it the same way you cope with your alliance mates not delivering your courier package, or AWOXing you, or ...



No, you won't be able to take care of #2 the same way. I can steal from the ESS for a bit and then warp off, warp to my main, jetcan tags, log off, rinse repeat.

This deployable is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1194 - 2014-01-16 17:08:32 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Start with an ESS-like module, you get 90% of bounties without it, 110% with. This module has 500k EHP, a one hour reinforcement timer, and a global corporation notification. It requires starbase config to use.

It collects 25% of all ratting bounties which, if it's not reinforced, are automatically paid out to the ratter an hour(possibly longer edit: six hours seems more appropriate) later. If destroyed it drops the ESS isk-tags of the value of bounties it's holding.

You could even add a taxation option where a configurable percentage of that 25% goes to the corp that owns the module, in effect creating an opportunity to shift taxation from corp to system based and providing strong incentives to care about the modules.


This biggest issue with the above EHP and RF suggestions is that it moves the ESS module from "small gang" (5-10) to medium gang (10-20) or larger territory. An alliance does NOT need a full hour to respond, and giving them this much time will result in a very heavy response. Really, the time between the attack on the RF and the payout on the RF should be on the order of 10-20 minutes. This is plenty of time for an alliance to gather the troops and defend it, without bringing in the whole shebang!
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1195 - 2014-01-16 17:08:37 UTC
Tahnil wrote:


But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.



No, you DESPERATELY WANT something which allows you to make huge isk gains while risking an whole interceptor.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1196 - 2014-01-16 17:11:19 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:


Look, no one is going to deploy this even if the potential bonus to bounties was 200%. Think about it this way:

1. What is to stop someone from your alliance with a 1 day old alt from robbing the ESS?

2. What is to stop someone from your alliance from logging on a neutral alt they have logged off in system and robbing the ESS?

These are two obvious ways to exploit this deployable/mechanic to the point that no ratter is going to agree to use these no matter what the potential bonus is. If i log on to rat and see one of these in system the first thing I will do is blow it up. Me blowing up someone's deployable = alliance drama. The 1 day old alts robbing the ESS = alliance drama. Alliance leaders deal with enough drama already and will just ban the use of these.

I really don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. Maybe if you have never lived in or don't understand nullsec you should stop posting in this thread?


1.) It tells you who robbed the ESS. You take care of it the same way you would an AWOXer.

2.) It tells you when yor ESS is being robbed. You take care of it the same way you would a neutral (assuming CCP increases the access timer to something reasonable).

p.s. Drama is a part of EvE. It basically creates conflict and content. You'll cope with it the same way you cope with your alliance mates not delivering your courier package, or AWOXing you, or ...



No, you won't be able to take care of #2 the same way. I can steal from the ESS for a bit and then warp off, warp to my main, jetcan tags, log off, rinse repeat.

This deployable is trying to force a square peg into a round hole.


The ESS gives a notice in local that Andrea's Alt has landed by the ESS. If your alliance mates can't warp a ship over and blap your alt then you deserve to run off the the isk-tags. I'll admit that the current 60s to claim the tags is too short, but increase this to 6-10 minutes, and your alliance mates will stop your alt if they are even a tid bit competent.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1197 - 2014-01-16 17:11:25 UTC
handige harrie wrote:
Tahnil wrote:


You are allowed to perceive us as brigands, roaming your empire‘s borders. For fun and personal gain. That‘s okay. And you don‘t have to like us for what we‘re doing. But you should really appreciate the existence of banditry in this game. It‘s an enrichment. In the end, this game is about simulated conflict, drama, and social experiments.

But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.


If you poke a bear with a stick, you shouldn't be surprised it reacts. If you want small gang roams that are fun, SOV nullsec might not be the place you should be looking.

It appears that small gang roams keep bashing their heads against the same rock, unable to see their mistake.

it's being ages that small gang is almost dead, the odds of crossing another gang that will fight you are......well, i do FC such roams once or twice a week, and in 5 month, had only 2 fights, wich ended by the opposite gang lighting a cyno in the end, first one dropping a phoenix + chimera (yes, you read that! for a cruiser gang! and failed dying in fire Lol), the 2nd cyno dropped 2 triage archon and a proteus fleet of 20 ppl for a 5 cruiser + 1 BC gang.

rest of the time, your small gang will just make ratters dock up, or dodge knwon cyno roaming in the hope to give the 200+ ppl waiting on the titan something to ****.

and this is in lowsec, in null it's even worse, you cross......nothing for ages.....then eventually a bigass fleet you can't do crap against or a few ratters who are already docking / in pos by the time you hit warp / align at the gate......
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1198 - 2014-01-16 17:11:28 UTC
Tahnil wrote:

As I see it small corporations like mine are an enrichment for this game. We don‘t do sovereignty warfare, this is not our league.

You are allowed to perceive us as brigands, roaming your empire‘s borders. For fun and personal gain. That‘s okay. And you don‘t have to like us for what we‘re doing. But you should really appreciate the existence of banditry in this game. It‘s an enrichment. In the end, this game is about simulated conflict, drama, and social experiments.

But we DESPERATELY NEED __something__ like ESS. We can talk about how it can be done right, but not IF it should be done at all.


Thats kinda the point. Big, small, we all do our own thing, and cross paths when we stick our heads in the others game (be it small groups bombing/pipebombing or whatever a strategic fleet, or a small group within a larger entity goes roaming), and thats cool. Banditry in and of itself is fine, it adds danger and uncertainty to travelling through space, and I wouldn't want it gone. What I disagree with though, is that there seems to be some obligation on the larger entities to keep you entertained. Why? What have you done for us lately?

Ultimately, raiders like you show up in a tight-comp, at a time your organisation has planned in advance, with pre-sourced boosters and an experienced FC. And that's fine, but you get the rewards that skewing the situation in your favour deserves. But for some unfathomable reason, you seem to expect there should be some mechanic that forces a portion of us to fall in front of your guns in an un-FCed, un-boosted, kitchen-sink comp, entirely for your amusement, as some sort of compensation for us playing a different way. Err, how about no. If I proposed there should be a mechanic to force NPC-station dwellers out of the door into our 200-man battleship fleet, you would think I was insane, and rightly so.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1199 - 2014-01-16 17:11:47 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This biggest issue with the above EHP and RF suggestions is that it moves the ESS module from "small gang" (5-10) to medium gang (10-20) or larger territory. An alliance does NOT need a full hour to respond, and giving them this much time will result in a very heavy response. Really, the time between the attack on the RF and the payout on the RF should be on the order of 10-20 minutes. This is plenty of time for an alliance to gather the troops and defend it, without bringing in the whole shebang!

I don't think you'd see much of a difference in response between 10-20m reinforced and 1h, in both cases it's going to be bored people around the area. But that's a good reason to make it the shorter time, alliance gets time to respond, attackers don't need to twiddle their thumbs for an hour.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1200 - 2014-01-16 17:13:02 UTC
greiton starfire wrote:
the problem is your small group is trying to attack a group that by definition must be orders of magnitude larger and better coordinated than you. we don't need better ways to get tiny fights out of massive groups, we need ways for tiny groups to get lots of fights together. ideally pvp should scale up, small in high, medium in low, big in null. so you need to look at ways to get people to actually fight in highsec fleets. be it fleet duels etc. ccp tried to use war decs but that was just a mess.


And that‘s the fun part of it: on the small scale, Goonswarm Federation or any other large alliance ISN‘T BETTER COORDINATED than our small scale pvp gangs. That‘s the reason why we can gank carriers and marauders deep within your empires. Sov 0.0 ratters are acting very isolated, and that‘s why they are easy prey for any roaming gang. And that‘s why they HAVE to dock up. There is no alternative for them, cause alliances don‘t have an answer to the kind of threat that we small scale pvp roamers are posing.

As I stated in an earlier post, alliances would have to adapt to the fact that suddenly there are some things at risk by gangs that you were able to completely ignore in the past.

As I see it, most of the opposition to the ESS in this thread is by large alliance nullsec dwellers who see the game from a completely different angle. Everybodies point of view in this thread is highly subjective, and determined by our selfish interest. Therefore it is wrong to accuse CCP SoniClover of not understanding the game. He‘s just coming from a different perspective, one that most people here don‘t like.