These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
IrJosy
Club 1621
#781 - 2014-01-15 21:01:36 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
IrJosy wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
This new ESS structure is so weird and gimmicky, but what is more interesting to me what was the CSM feedback on it.


If the CSM objected to this idea half as much as those of us in this thread, it really makes you wonder if CCP is taking the CSM seriously.

What if CSM didn't object at all, then it makes you wonder even more.

Especially after post #47.


CSM minutes said they objected to something that sounds like this.
IrJosy
Club 1621
#782 - 2014-01-15 21:04:05 UTC
Agh Creire-Geng wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.



I think that based on the feedback, you should be looking at:
-Removing the ESS.

Blink


agreed
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#783 - 2014-01-15 21:05:36 UTC
IrJosy wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
IrJosy wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
This new ESS structure is so weird and gimmicky, but what is more interesting to me what was the CSM feedback on it.


If the CSM objected to this idea half as much as those of us in this thread, it really makes you wonder if CCP is taking the CSM seriously.

What if CSM didn't object at all, then it makes you wonder even more.

Especially after post #47.


CSM minutes said they objected to something that sounds like this.


Although we'll never know for sure as the last CSM minutes were so tenuous and vague as to be practically worthless, this also makes it hard for us to critically evaluate the work the CSM do as practically everything they say or do is under some sort of uber secret NDA agreement. CCP is starting to go over to the dark side in a really bad way. I mean really bad, EA Games bad!

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#784 - 2014-01-15 21:11:05 UTC
For what it's worth, I like the general idea. I kinda agree with Gizznitt's comments.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#785 - 2014-01-15 21:13:25 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.

also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft?


Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.


Amazing.

CCP Dev: "we're looking at introducing a feature where we smear our poop all over the faces of people who live in nullsec"
35 pages of player feedback: "that's a completely terrible idea, we don't want you to smear your poop all over our faces"
CCP Dev: "we have listened carefully and, based on your feedback, we're looking at changing our diets to adjust the texture and consistency of the poop when we smear it all over your faces. Also, we're looking at wearing gloves now".

I'm not sure how you get 'people have concerns about these three specific aspects of our new feature' from this thread but I can only assume that powerful hallucinogens are involved somehow. Swallow your pride and scrap this idea entirely.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#786 - 2014-01-15 21:30:31 UTC
This ESS deployable is terrible. why is it terrible? because as has been said in this thread countless times:

The potential benefits are far outshadowed by their potential pitfalls.

By design theyre extremely griefable via interceptors in their ability to warp to and from them at high speed and completely negate the bubble that would trap others. even the timer becomes a moot point when you consider an interceptor can get to warpable distance from any can the structure spits out in the allotted time, be in line for a warp out, warp to the can, grab the tags and warp off.

to make it even more easy for him he will know straight away that theres someone coming for him by the system wide notifications of people warping to the ESS.

killing an ESS would be childsplay by almost any alliance when you consider that 150k ehp is buffer style battleship ehp and can be killed in under 1 minute by bombers, even ones fitted with warp core stabs. making catching them difficult and not exactly ideal for the expenditure of effort.

to all the smug posters gleefully expecting to race into a ratting system plant it down, wait a bit and grab free isk in the form of tags i have a serious bit of bad news for you... any self respecting null sec ratter safes up in system whenever a hostile or neutral comes into it. there will be no isk generation by an ESS if there is no ratting being done.
And you can be sure that if the ESS in a system hasnt been placed there by the alliance that owns the space, it'll be killed shortly but always before more ratting is done.

Couple that together with the fact no self respecting null sec alliance will permit its members to deploy them in their space.

the other aspect of it is that like other deployables, its the ratters that will be guaranteed a killmail. Any possible addition of a reinforcement timer will have to imply the units isk syphoning will be negligible if not entirely shut down too.

It just shows how CCP Developers dont play their own game in anywhere near the level of their own players. Its also not like its not possible for CCP Devs to do so. Many core null sec players have families and full time jobs yet can keep up with the riggers of a changing null sec theatre of war.

this is obvious in the fact that a single bubble and notifications will alert people to an impending confrontation that the bubble will force. it took me no time at all to realise 1 ceptor warping to 100 from it can negate the bubble and manoeuver to the point where he can cloak on grid and have a fleet warp to him @ range and not set off any alarms. and if ive thought of that u know a high majority of null sec "carebears" have too.

it seems all of a sudden you guys have lost any sense of level headedness from the development process. Coupled with Ali Aras's post on the 1st page makes me wonder if you even gave the CSM members a glance at this before 'OK'ing' this to go ahead.

As for the other deployables in this devblog :careface: theyre syphons. big whoop. just add them to the pile of terrible deployables that have an initial spike of usage before being largely abandoned never to be bothered with.

You guys seriously need to go and splash some water on your faces, take a good look at the quality of your game mechanics brainstorming and do some f**king research on how your customers use your own product. It is after all what we pay you to do!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#787 - 2014-01-15 21:35:03 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.

also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft?


Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.


Amazing.

CCP Dev: "we're looking at introducing a feature where we smear our poop all over the faces of people who live in nullsec"
35 pages of player feedback: "that's a completely terrible idea, we don't want you to smear your poop all over our faces"
CCP Dev: "we have listened carefully and, based on your feedback, we're looking at changing our diets to adjust the texture and consistency of the poop when we smear it all over your faces. Also, we're looking at wearing gloves now".

I'm not sure how you get 'people have concerns about these three specific aspects of our new feature' from this thread but I can only assume that powerful hallucinogens are involved somehow. Swallow your pride and scrap this idea entirely.


You see, some people give constructive criticism as to what works and doesn't work with the concept. Others simply QQ that the sky is falling and emote over the proposed loss of bounties. For example, none of the 5 posts you typed in this thread is constructive in any way. If you actually read the posts that discuss potential issues with the concept, you'd find CCP's response and efforts are generally spot on. In the mean time, keep QQ'ing all of the forum though, it's rather entertaining (in the obnoxious three year old throwing a temper tantrum way).
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#788 - 2014-01-15 21:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

You see, some people give constructive criticism as to what works and doesn't work with the concept. Others simply QQ that the sky is falling and emote over the proposed loss of bounties. For example, none of the 5 posts you typed in this thread is constructive in any way. If you actually read the posts that discuss potential issues with the concept, you'd find CCP's response and efforts are generally spot on. In the mean time, keep QQ'ing all of the forum though, it's rather entertaining (in the obnoxious three year old throwing a temper tantrum way).


Plenty of constructive criticism has been offered and responded to with SoniClover making a point of ignoring all but the most superficial issues. For constructive criticism refer to the first 20-30 pages of this thread.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#789 - 2014-01-15 21:42:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.

also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft?


Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.


Amazing.

CCP Dev: "we're looking at introducing a feature where we smear our poop all over the faces of people who live in nullsec"
35 pages of player feedback: "that's a completely terrible idea, we don't want you to smear your poop all over our faces"
CCP Dev: "we have listened carefully and, based on your feedback, we're looking at changing our diets to adjust the texture and consistency of the poop when we smear it all over your faces. Also, we're looking at wearing gloves now".

I'm not sure how you get 'people have concerns about these three specific aspects of our new feature' from this thread but I can only assume that powerful hallucinogens are involved somehow. Swallow your pride and scrap this idea entirely.


You see, some people give constructive criticism as to what works and doesn't work with the concept. Others simply QQ that the sky is falling and emote over the proposed loss of bounties. For example, none of the 5 posts you typed in this thread is constructive in any way. If you actually read the posts that discuss potential issues with the concept, you'd find CCP's response and efforts are generally spot on. In the mean time, keep QQ'ing all of the forum though, it's rather entertaining (in the obnoxious three year old throwing a temper tantrum way).
I'm not sure what you're looking at, but Scatim did provide constructive criticism.
I think his constructive criticism captures the essence of all constructive criticism that can be on the ESS.
And I'm pretty pissed off because a Goon is looking more out for the game than CCP.

I can't see of anything that works on the basis of what has been proposed by CCP, and what is even worse, I have no expectations of CCP delivering anything good on the basis of the idea, on the grounds of their history up until now. So I am sorry, but nothing of this should ever come through, because no matter how many changes CCP has made very sure to make it flawed from the on-set. NOTHING CCP does with the ESS can redeem it.
It needs to be scrapped. It's like a rabid dog, if you allow it to take from the dinner table once, you've got a problem with it forever. They need to be put down in the metaphorical sense.
ANY sort of "we can discuss this" is problematic - it encourages CCP to **** up even more!

This "idea", this "ESS" needs to be scrapped. Art assets can be reused, nothing else.
Got that?
Celeste DeAgama
Doomheim
#790 - 2014-01-15 21:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Celeste DeAgama
This is NOT a ratter item. If you are deep in sov then it's a ratters item. No strangers in your nullbear system for days....oh forgot afk cloakies. Ok so my friends and I enter a system and see people ratting without an ESS. We can place an ESS and impact them $. If they want to pew they come pew. If they want to hide they hide. If they want to ignore it then we sit there and wait for it to grow. It is a tool of economic warfare. Pretty sure that's why eveyones panties in a bunch.Shocked. On EvE? Never I say!
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#791 - 2014-01-15 21:51:14 UTC
Celeste DeAgama wrote:
This is NOT a ratter item. If you are deep in sov then it's a ratters item. No strangers in your nullbear system for days....oh forgot afk cloakies. Ok so my friends and I enter a system and see people ratting without an ESS. We can place an ESS and impact them $. If they want to pew they come pew. If they want to hide they hide. If they want to ignore it then we sit there and wait for it to grow. It is a tool of economic warfare.

Any scenario where roamers make money from dropping their own ESS is a delusional fantasy.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#792 - 2014-01-15 21:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kismeteer
Neat, found a cool edge case. I found a way to make one of these things completely disappear from overview as it gets moved and the system stays at 80% bounties.

1. Drop ESS.
2. Launch and anchor tower.
3. ESS disappears from overview without a warning, (Note, it's been moved 500km off the tower, but doesn't update the overview.)
4. ESS stays invisible on overview until session change.

20% lost during this time, but great way to hide an active ESS for active ratters without much chance of them noticing it. Once again, only shows up on overview on session change.
Celeste DeAgama
Doomheim
#793 - 2014-01-15 21:55:52 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Celeste DeAgama wrote:
This is NOT a ratter item. If you are deep in sov then it's a ratters item. No strangers in your nullbear system for days....oh forgot afk cloakies. Ok so my friends and I enter a system and see people ratting without an ESS. We can place an ESS and impact them $. If they want to pew they come pew. If they want to hide they hide. If they want to ignore it then we sit there and wait for it to grow. It is a tool of economic warfare.

Any scenario where roamers make money from dropping their own ESS is a delusional fantasy.


Not dropping them to make money from bounties. Dropping them to impact enemy alliance income and MAYBE get someone to nut up and come pew at them. And it pleases me to think when they hide we can rat and collect. So many people just hide up. Go pew.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#794 - 2014-01-15 21:57:01 UTC
Kill it. Kill it now.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Celeste DeAgama
Doomheim
#795 - 2014-01-15 21:57:31 UTC
Kismeteer wrote:
Neat, found a cool edge case. I found a way to make one of these things completely disappear from overview as it gets moved and the system stays at 80% bounties.

1. Drop ESS.
2. Launch and anchor tower.
3. ESS disappears from overview without a warning, (Note, it's been moved 500km off the tower, but doesn't update the overview.)
4. ESS stays invisible on overview until session change.

20% lost during this time, but great way to hide an active ESS for active ratters without much chance of them noticing it. Once again, only shows up on overview on session change.


Why do I get the feeling this will be considered an exploit?

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#796 - 2014-01-15 21:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
As a WH player, thank you CCP for giving us a deployable just for us that we can pop out of our WH, deploy an ESS before the next bounty tick, nick the 5 mil or so and scoop it back up, just to troll with ratters. Our own tiny trollmobile.

Really though, whut?

Remove that 5% base nerf stat, halve the 20% drop to 10%, and increase the base bonus to 110% and you might see this used somewhere that's not firewalled behind 300 blue systems. As it is, having always ratted in fairly unsafe regions, OP, fountain, Wicked Creek, Tribute, Querious, I NEVER would have deployed one of these, with the firm and realistic expectation that a roaming gang would be coming through frequently enough to render it useless.

Of all the nullsec isk geysers, people actually manually ratting is not one that needs nerfs. Hitting the younger, less spacerich players with nerfs is not a good idea. They are not the ones importing ships and mods for sale with JF's, or with incursion or WH alts, or FW alts, or moongoo. Actual nullsec ratting is the subsidence farming of the nulsec world, and those potatoes need no additional taxation.


TLDR: wtf is this ****?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#797 - 2014-01-15 21:59:26 UTC
Like many players I have no idea about the amount of ISK generated by 0.0 activties and its impact on inflation, however apart from that I think I see what CCP are trying to do, to create a conflict driverr, something that needs to be defended.

I posted a suggestion that the ESS be something that just increases bounties, thats all and that it can be destroyed, also make it so that a number can be placed in system to add to bounties, however give them a long spool up time so they have to be defended to keep the bounty at that level. That creates a conflict driver in itself, and I would give each one a 5% bonus and have a max limit of 5 in system.

Remove the cloak, remove the warning of someone near it, and remove these tags and the 5% of the bounty bring removed.

My suggestion is simple and it works, it has a benefit that people may well try to defend and you don't turn it into something that is going to annoy the hell out of people.

If someone puts one of these things in the system I am in I will blow it up or move to another system and at 30m a pop I am sure as hell not going to put it into another persons system, but when I saw what a member of PL had worked out how to use them I could not believe that you had not thought that through and for certain targets that would be interesting...

Normally when it comes to game changes I would rather suck it and see, I gave my opinion on the POCO's for example, I thought having them as conflict drivers was a good idea, however I still feel you went half cocked, I would have made all POCO's being attacked give a suspect timer and the only thing a war dec does is give you protection from a suspect timer, wouldn't that have cause more conflict, more small gang stuff?

But back to the ESS, it really does add nothing to the experience, its rather like having to do a cyno, 10 minutes of being a sitting duck, great gameplay that, you are about to add another really frustrating mechanic to the game, I have to say I am struggling to get my head around this, because it seems stupid, the only thing I can thing of is that this links into some new sov mechanic system, that is radically diffeent to what we have now., anyway, I guess I will find out in due course.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#798 - 2014-01-15 22:00:07 UTC
Celeste DeAgama wrote:
Sal Landry wrote:
Celeste DeAgama wrote:
This is NOT a ratter item. If you are deep in sov then it's a ratters item. No strangers in your nullbear system for days....oh forgot afk cloakies. Ok so my friends and I enter a system and see people ratting without an ESS. We can place an ESS and impact them $. If they want to pew they come pew. If they want to hide they hide. If they want to ignore it then we sit there and wait for it to grow. It is a tool of economic warfare.

Any scenario where roamers make money from dropping their own ESS is a delusional fantasy.


Not dropping them to make money from bounties. Dropping them to impact enemy alliance income and MAYBE get someone to nut up and come pew at them. And it pleases me to think when they hide we can rat and collect. So many people just hide up. Go pew.


You mean you're going to impact enemy alliance income by staying in system, right?

Because that happens now. It's called camping.

If you mean you're going to leave system, then the locals are forced into a structure grind before they go back to ratting.

I don't know why I bother, I've already said this exact same thing multiple times in the thread. People just don't listen *cough* CCP

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Rekkr Nordgard
Borderland Militia
Zero Hedge Union
#799 - 2014-01-15 22:01:04 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It would be nice to get some dev &/or CSM feedback on the issues brought up.

also: Why wasn't this first released in the F&I forum for feedback. Does CCP consider the proposed version a final draft?


Based on feedback, we're looking at three things:
- Time to get loot - lot of good points that the time needs to be increased
- Interceptors too good - we're looking at ways to decrease the efficiency of using an interceptor to steal
- Too effective as warp bubble - we're looking at making it less viable

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any test feedback from Sisi would also be much appreciated.


Way to be completely tone deaf and totally ignore all our fundamental problems with this piece of garbage.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#800 - 2014-01-15 22:01:34 UTC
Celeste DeAgama wrote:


Dropping them to impact enemy alliance income


Ah, so your going to drop them in the high sec incursions and Sisters or Thukker (or Republic Fleet, RF 100mn ABs are selling well right now) that people will do rather than screw around in null with people like you?

I call hacker if you find a way to do this.