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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2101 - 2014-01-25 21:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
thowlimer wrote:


First, you only get tags if someone hits the share all option, so that is at least one les hassle for the ratter and more headache for the red trying to steal your isk.

As for those two statements an ESS will give increased payout/rat over time it is this time that is reset, ie if a 800k rat gives 200k payout just after deployment it will give(not sure but think it was in the ballpark of 5% more) after 2 hours which would come to 210k. so after being destroyed and redeployed it would be back down to 200k, but you could still retrieve the isk
earnt during those two hours as long as noone used the share/take all optione before destroying it


A great example of why people won't use the thing, and how even though it will see little "freindly" use it constitutes a signifigant nerf to null sec.

If you do use it successfully and make a whopping 5% more than you can now (fat chance), it turns into a massive TIME sink. Either you have to fly (or jump) to empire to redeem the Lp or tags. That's time you don't rat. Or you could jump clone, which means 19 to 24 hours you aren't in null to rat, or it means death cloninig out and back, which means sinking isk into clone upgrades. Either way, you end up making less isk.

It's worse with hostiles because they can plant the thing forcing you to destroy it before you can rat (and that's if they leave, which they won't). The time taken to shoot it is time you aren't ratting.

What is most likely is that it won't get used much (like that awesomely useless cyno inhibitor) execpt to grief and null sec PVErs will jsut have to swallow that 5% reduction. That means that ratting mach that was making 105 mil per hour (35 mil per tick under ideal condictions) will make 99.75 mil an hour.

Meanwhile i'll be flying my mach in empire protected by CONCORD making 100 to 135 mil an hour doing sisters or trust partners missions(for now, CCP about to introduce yet another Sisters item that's going to fluff up the values of sisters probes and lanauchers and implants), 120 to 180 mil an hour flying in a shiney incursion fleet (not even having to shoot anything, a scimitar pilot ain't gonna make that kind of isk anywhere else lol) or joining FW to make the truly amazing isk with throwaway Drakes or Caracals.

Why there is no one at CCP who can understand why this is bad is beyond me.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2102 - 2014-01-26 01:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Jenn aSide wrote:

It's worse with hostiles because they can plant the thing forcing you to destroy it before you can rat (and that's if they leave, which they won't). The time taken to shoot it is time you aren't ratting.

The only reason I see to shoot it is :
a) you want LP from a different faction
b) you want to 'move' the ESS to a different grid to remove hostile perch bookmarks
c) ability to scoop it and dock, hoping they didn't bring one of their own to try to steal the money stored in system.

You can just rat with an enemy one in space, hit share when done and log off leaving it there.
Jenn aSide wrote:
Why there is no one at CCP who can understand why this is bad is beyond me.

This this deployable is:
- Rubicon lore of "capsuleers flip off concord" being shoved down our throat with unnecessarily complicated mechanics.
- A forced isk faucet nerf that CCP is refusing to have any discussion on or provide feedback.

I dare say more people moving away from null ratting and going to high sec may have been an objective of this project, as a means of further reducing the amount of isk injected into the economy by null sec. Furthermore, that reduction is likely to be a high level metric to determine further iteration on the project. So more people going to run missions instead = null isk faucet down. ISK faucet down? Working as intended, leave it be.

If anything, as a form of protest we should start mass ratting as much as possible. You know what affects the market far more than +/-5% changes to overall null ratting bounties? Tripling the ratting population.

That's why CCP has no interest in bringing high sec income alts back to rat in null. It just can't happen without blowing inflation out of control with current mechanics. Which is why, as I proposed, the ESS should pool LP instead of ISK and pay out bonus LP instead of bonus ISK. It makes the flow of the ISK faucet more constant and easier to manage. It also makes it easier to iterate on null pve without having to revisit this module specifically for a full overhaul. If it proves successful, we can start talking about other options for the footmen of null to make non-raw ISK income. Because encouraging them to live in the space they own is going to be a far better conflict driver, than deployables with gimmicky mechanics.

But none of this is going to change at this point. There is no more time to iterate on this before launch. It's the weekend. They will probably spend the weekend on QA of the already locked in final build, as it will be released on Tuesday. Once it's live, there will be less room for major changes around the general concept. This thing should really be pushed back to Rubicon 1.2 so it can get at least one more iteration cycle. And get a F&I thread, as it should have had from the start.
Gunner
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2103 - 2014-01-26 02:42:37 UTC
1. Spam ESS all over your enemies ratting systems, park a covert cyno alt next to each ESS
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2104 - 2014-01-26 03:35:12 UTC
Gunner wrote:
1. Spam ESS all over your enemies ratting systems, park a covert cyno alt next to each ESS
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

We've been over this

1. Park covert cyno alts all over your enemies ratting systems
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

The ESS doesn't enter the equation, because the neut in local means no one undocks in the first place. And hey, you don't have to spend 25 mil * systems to get blown up if they happen to form up more than you can chew.
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#2105 - 2014-01-26 09:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Falkor1984
Vald Tegor wrote:
Gunner wrote:
1. Spam ESS all over your enemies ratting systems, park a covert cyno alt next to each ESS
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

We've been over this

1. Park covert cyno alts all over your enemies ratting systems
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

The ESS doesn't enter the equation, because the neut in local means no one undocks in the first place. And hey, you don't have to spend 25 mil * systems to get blown up if they happen to form up more than you can chew.


Yup. It is funny how these people think ESS will acomplish anything. Sadly CCP seems to think it as well. Maybe they should play their own game more often (or at all).

CCP is working on **** like the ESS, but does not solve things like boring sov grinds, failing servers, 95% of nullsec being a wasteland with friends nor foes, skewed risk/reward balance between nullsec/hisec (fw, incursions), pos problems, the list goes on and on.

But yay we are getting another module nobody usesRoll
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2106 - 2014-01-26 10:31:09 UTC
I have asked 2 simple questions in the comments thread, of the new blog on these.
They have been ignored.

They have no intention on discussing these devices and it makes no difference what we say.
Quote:
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2107 - 2014-01-26 11:32:10 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I have asked 2 simple questions in the comments thread, of the new blog on these.
They have been ignored.

They have no intention on discussing these devices and it makes no difference what we say.

Or possibly they answered the first of your questions in the Dev Blog already.
And the second has been answered here repeatedly.

So.... Stupid/Useless questions don't receive answers, well done CCP.

Only risk to using ESS now. LP Market fluctuations & initial 30 mil cost.
Potential gain. 25% profit overall.

If you are going to whine, at least do it on real facts. Not raging over out of date information.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2108 - 2014-01-26 11:51:55 UTC
I was hoping that we would have had a statement from the power blocs of null, along the lines of 'all members are forbidden to purchase or deploy this device, the penalty for doing so is expulsion etc' until this horrible mechanic is significantly changed or removed from the game.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Gunner
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2109 - 2014-01-26 13:07:50 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Gunner wrote:
1. Spam ESS all over your enemies ratting systems, park a covert cyno alt next to each ESS
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

We've been over this

1. Park covert cyno alts all over your enemies ratting systems
2. Make sure your BO team is in jump range.
3. Profit.

The ESS doesn't enter the equation, because the neut in local means no one undocks in the first place. And hey, you don't have to spend 25 mil * systems to get blown up if they happen to form up more than you can chew.


I don't believe you. 8)
thowlimer
Roprocor Ltd
#2110 - 2014-01-26 13:23:16 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
thowlimer wrote:


First, you only get tags if someone hits the share all option, so that is at least one les hassle for the ratter and more headache for the red trying to steal your isk.


I'm sure this is just a typo.

Take option, not share option, to get tags.


Quite right, got them turned around, the ratting(share) is isk, the grief/thief(take) is tagsOops
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#2111 - 2014-01-26 18:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
Vald Tegor wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

It's worse with hostiles because they can plant the thing forcing you to destroy it before you can rat (and that's if they leave, which they won't). The time taken to shoot it is time you aren't ratting.

The only reason I see to shoot it is :
a) you want LP from a different faction
b) you want to 'move' the ESS to a different grid to remove hostile perch bookmarks
c) ability to scoop it and dock, hoping they didn't bring one of their own to try to steal the money stored in system.

You can just rat with an enemy one in space, hit share when done and log off leaving it there.
Jenn aSide wrote:
Why there is no one at CCP who can understand why this is bad is beyond me.

This this deployable is:
- Rubicon lore of "capsuleers flip off concord" being shoved down our throat with unnecessarily complicated mechanics.
- A forced isk faucet nerf that CCP is refusing to have any discussion on or provide feedback.

I dare say more people moving away from null ratting and going to high sec may have been an objective of this project, as a means of further reducing the amount of isk injected into the economy by null sec. Furthermore, that reduction is likely to be a high level metric to determine further iteration on the project. So more people going to run missions instead = null isk faucet down. ISK faucet down? Working as intended, leave it be.

If anything, as a form of protest we should start mass ratting as much as possible. You know what affects the market far more than +/-5% changes to overall null ratting bounties? Tripling the ratting population.

That's why CCP has no interest in bringing high sec income alts back to rat in null. It just can't happen without blowing inflation out of control with current mechanics. Which is why, as I proposed, the ESS should pool LP instead of ISK and pay out bonus LP instead of bonus ISK. It makes the flow of the ISK faucet more constant and easier to manage. It also makes it easier to iterate on null pve without having to revisit this module specifically for a full overhaul. If it proves successful, we can start talking about other options for the footmen of null to make non-raw ISK income. Because encouraging them to live in the space they own is going to be a far better conflict driver, than deployables with gimmicky mechanics.

But none of this is going to change at this point. There is no more time to iterate on this before launch. It's the weekend. They will probably spend the weekend on QA of the already locked in final build, as it will be released on Tuesday. Once it's live, there will be less room for major changes around the general concept. This thing should really be pushed back to Rubicon 1.2 so it can get at least one more iteration cycle. And get a F&I thread, as it should have had from the start.



I just hope that everyone here realizes that this is a win for CCP either way that you look at it though its still terrible for the game

1. People move to hisec
-> less nullsec isk added to game, working as intended

2. People protest rat without using module
-> Increased player population in Nullsec and chances for pvp, working as intended

3. People do nothing different
-> not enough information to say its a bad idea, who can really say its not working as intended

4. People rat with the module
-> people like the new Module, Workign as intended

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Warmistress Severine
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2112 - 2014-01-26 19:16:15 UTC
Megacrap....

Now Ratters get Empire Navy LP. Because.... Ratters in 0.0 live in empire and they all have positive sec status... And it's megafun to do 30-40 jumps to collect this ****. And because we don't get mission-dogtags we can buy the cool stuff there... Like Ammo and implants....

Do you Dev's actually play this game?

This thing is crap. Now you "listened" to the 3 guys (2 of 'em prolly Dev alts) that actually liked this **** and "changed" it a little and made it even more crap then before.

And best of all.... No-one in 0.0 will ever use it.

So man up, cancel this crap and do something useful with your devtime.
Marlin Kusoni
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2113 - 2014-01-26 21:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Marlin Kusoni
Just adding my few thoughts, they might partially repeat other thoughts being already said here, but still:

- bounty payouts are valueable not just bcs they are huge or not, but bcs it's (almost) immediate ISK w/o needs to go somewhere and sell something and (probably) grind something else, like faction tags.

- LP itself doesn't have a fixed value, it is a variable.

- Inflation of Navy LPs wouldn't only hit hi-sec lvl 4 grinders who are so hated by most other players, but also it will affect significantly n00bs doing lvl 3s, bcs there are lvl 3 mission hubs in game which got 2 agents per station and 2-3 per system, all from Navy corps, and getting 2-3 missions before you actually fly to complete 'em, notably increases your performance and can be better than doing 1 mission per docking cycle for a Indi/R&D/SoE corp. Especially those who don't have a Noctis alt and thus rely more on blitzing than cleaning, will feel it.

- Lvl 5s are already not worth doing besides you already got a setup more suitable for those than for multi-grinding lvl 4s. Ok, let's just burrow them under the hi-sec fence.

- Due to ESS offering higher ISK w/ higher risk involved (in theory), it is more likely to be used by large alliances who got plenty of connected systems under their control and thus, where there is much less risk to get it dropped by hostiles. Excuse me my language, but it appears like wiping arses of ultra-large coalitions once again, while making the situation for smaller ones more difficult.

- time needed to travel and/or cash the gained LPs doesn't bring you more ISK, it's the time you have to spend to get those you already grinded in hand. That time you have to spend, decreases your ISK/hr ratio.

- "Early null comers" will hate the system, bcs in most cases it's the straightforward nerf to their income. How do you imagine a lonely Caracal w/ skills @3 is going to fight a black-drop? Ok, 5 underskilled Caracals are not making much sense either.


The idea itself looks interesting - in theory, but it doesn't fit the current game at all. Pls, either postpone the introduction of it or deny it at all, bcs I smell a huge drama-lama coming if you ignore all the early feedback.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2114 - 2014-01-26 23:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Kusum Fawn wrote:



I just hope that everyone here realizes that this is a win for CCP either way that you look at it though its still terrible for the game

1. People move to hisec
-> less nullsec isk added to game, working as intended


It means other things as well. More competiton in high sec missions and incursions. With missions is means less profit for the real high sec missions runners, for incursions in means worse. More people waiting to get in fleets, or making new communities (thus more competetions in sites or more drama ending up in incursions closed quickly). If this stuff starts happening, the real missions and incursion runners wil let CCP know (the same way they let CCP know after the 1st anom nerf).

Less ratters in null also means fewer ratting ships needing to be replaced, which everyone form ship builders to tech 2 mod makers to explorers (some of those ratting ships have deadspace mods on that sometimes need replacing) feeling it eventually.

Quote:

2. People protest rat without using module
-> Increased player population in Nullsec and chances for pvp, working as intended


Don't see this happening. Not for long, people aren't going to choose to make less isk for long, especially when the PLEX clock starts ticking.

Quote:

3. People do nothing different
-> not enough information to say its a bad idea, who can really say its not working as intended


IMO people doing nothing different is the only possible win for CCP and the game. Also not likely imo.

Quote:

4. People rat with the module
-> people like the new Module, Workign as intended


Least likely of all. Most people don't read forums, come wednesday many many many pve players (ratters and high sec mission runners) are gonna know what has happened and suddenly discover the forums (like with any change. CCPs forum mod crews are going to get worked hard lol, and CCP is gonna learn (yet again.....) why making broad and seperate patches of their customers ticked off is bad business.


The double whammy is going to be the guy who rats in null sec with a domi when he discovers both his income has been nerfed and his omnidirectional links need cap LOL.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2115 - 2014-01-26 23:04:16 UTC
Don't forget the additional element of the guys in Highsec who grind Navy Missions for LP, they feel cheated that the players in null can now access their loyalty point stores without having to work at it like they do. This module might have been a fun idea in a dev's head once but absolutely no one outside of that one person's mind likes it.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2116 - 2014-01-27 03:11:23 UTC
Sorry, but you guys are delusional now screaming no-one likes it.
Other than market fluctuations you loose no income using the ESS now no matter what happens, and you stand to gain 25% income.
Monsieur Leon
Doomheim
#2117 - 2014-01-27 22:25:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Sorry, but you guys are delusional now screaming no-one likes it.
Other than market fluctuations you loose no income using the ESS now no matter what happens, and you stand to gain 25% income.



First off I'm not making s**t. My Sov bill is 5 Billion a month, plus the cost of ships for ratting (over 1 bil) , the cost of jump fuel, POSes, etc etc.

Now I'm going to make 5% less because of some fictitious bullshit back story CCP dreamed up. Funny that is only effects null...

where the is no concord presence, where I literally pay for everything out of my own pocket. Where is my Concord SOV discount?

CCP doesn't care or have a clue what its like to live in null. They are sitting and writing code in a vacuum. Its just another way to screw with players who can generate enough isk to pay for their subscriptions thats it.

They want everyone to pay a subscription, that is their goal and also the reason that this crap module will be deployed no matter how much we complain or how valid the arguments.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#2118 - 2014-01-28 16:16:40 UTC
You should be able to see these in the map like cynos Big smile

Blue-Fire Best Fire
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2119 - 2014-01-29 01:22:45 UTC
Once again ESS is terrible because of the 5% reduction in overall income, if this were removed it would be alright as the benefits of using it would still involve risk. the static 5% reduction without using it is merely CCP spitting in the eye of everyone.

CCP knows its terrible as it never got a thread in Features and ideas which is pretty much standard practice for any new item being introduced.

This follows a common theme of null-sec nerfs over the past year In reverse order
1) Interceptor Changes
2) Forsaken hub nerf
3) Covert Cyno's for Tech 3s
4) Black Ops Range Increase

Going back further Probably not in order.
1) Jump Bridge Nerf; Removal of 2 JB's Per system, also the inability to take anything with a jump drive through a JB / TItan, While this change for titans not being able to bridge other capitals was well needed the inability to move jump freighters through jump bridges is still a bit wrong, as the reasoning behind it is anything that has a jump drive can't go through it, this was purposely made to include jump freighters as it could been anything that can't use a stargate.

2) True Sec Addition to Pirate Detection Arrays; This one was kinda needed but the way it was implemented removed many of the better sites from low end true-sec which made low true-sec systems once again the slums. This can be noted by CVA loosing providence directly after dominion then basically being it given back after the this change.

As for this being some lore tie in then what is the lore behind the isk being stored in a structure, since you know wallets are structures, then allowed to be stolen and awarded by the empires for stealing from someone who's apparently helping them by killing the pirates, to stick with this theme shouldn't someone stealing the loot also loose standings with that faction for betraying those that were helping them?

Anyway CCP, Message received you don't like nullsec.
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2120 - 2014-01-29 01:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Texty
Patch Notes says that LP payout is initially "0.1 %". Does this mean it has been significantly increased from the original plan (0.15 LP per 1000 ISK) ?

edit: nvm, you've ninja-edited it.