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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#2021 - 2014-01-23 15:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
KIller Wabbit wrote:
yeah, it's called "enough is enough. unsub"


Ridiculous… How‘s that different from hisec carebears rage quitting the game after realising for the first time that there are other players in the sandbox who like to ruin other people‘s days?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2022 - 2014-01-23 15:38:20 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Because the next step you whiners will get done is a campaign to exchange Empire LP to faction pirate LP, like you can exchange Concord LP for empire LP.

you realize nearly every post you make is whining over how a change will impact your isk/hour

do you see any irony in calling anyone else a whiner

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

stoicfaux
#2023 - 2014-01-23 15:38:43 UTC
Is it considered griefing if you put an ESS in the middle of a star or any other object guaranteed to bounce you away before you can claim the ESS tags?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

stoicfaux
#2024 - 2014-01-23 15:42:45 UTC
Tag prices. More LP chasing the same supply of tags is going to be interesting.

Also, it looks like CCP is interested in faucets, sinks, and inflation. So if we're going to increase Navy LP, then why not make Navy faction items, i.e. weapons, better (comparable to T2 in certain circumstances) and cheaper (less tags) in order to encourage people to burn up that LP and sink their isk?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#2025 - 2014-01-23 16:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Keuvo
Jori McKie wrote:

So i have to explain in detail how this works?
Alliance B has 20 ratting/farming/ano systems whatever you call it where they kill NPCs for bounty.
Alliance A has a fleet ready may it via cyno or Blops, whatever
Alliance A wants to harass farming in the prime time of Alliance B for lets say 2h as strategic goal and with some luck getting a fight.

What does Alliance A do now without an ESS, put up 20 cloak alts in local, see whats going on. If you are smart enough who the **** cares about a cloak alt, sure your farming may be interrupted from time to time but the point is you can not shut down farming at all.

Now the ESS comes into play, same setup, 20 systems, 20 cloak alts in grid with the ESS. Still you can't shut down farming at all but you can annoy the hell out of those farming guys. Either way, you are getting the cash from the ESS or you kill an Interceptor/Frig trying to access the ESS via Blops or you kill XXXX. It does not matter, the ESS is the cherry on top to harass someone else. The farming guys have 3 options.
- Stop farming partially or at all for 2h = mission accomplished (and if they chicken heads as long as there is a cloak alt in system)
- Trying to steal from the ESS after farming and may or may not get caught = mission accomplished
- Forming a fleet to kill alll 20 ESS = mission accomplished

Rinse and repeat that for 2 weeks and i bet Alliance B farming boys are pretty pissed and Alliance B has to deal with it one way or another.


1. If alliance A comes and drops one of these in alliance B's farming system nobody will rat while it is there.

2. If alliance A leaves a cloaky alt in system to babysit the ESS no one will undock to rat

3. If alliance A leaves an ESS in alliance B's system unattended alliance B ratters will blow it up

4. if alliance A parks a cloaky alt in system with no ESS deployed no one will undock to rat

Please tell me again how the ESS has changed anything/added content/acted as a conflict driver beyond just parking a cloaky alt in a ratting system? You wont get the square peg into the round hole no matter how long and hard you try.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2026 - 2014-01-23 16:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Regan Rotineque
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:

So i have to explain in detail how this works?
Alliance B has 20 ratting/farming/ano systems whatever you call it where they kill NPCs for bounty.
Alliance A has a fleet ready may it via cyno or Blops, whatever
Alliance A wants to harass farming in the prime time of Alliance B for lets say 2h as strategic goal and with some luck getting a fight.

What does Alliance A do now without an ESS, put up 20 cloak alts in local, see whats going on. If you are smart enough who the **** cares about a cloak alt, sure your farming may be interrupted from time to time but the point is you can not shut down farming at all.

Now the ESS comes into play, same setup, 20 systems, 20 cloak alts in grid with the ESS. Still you can't shut down farming at all but you can annoy the hell out of those farming guys. Either way, you are getting the cash from the ESS or you kill an Interceptor/Frig trying to access the ESS via Blops or you kill XXXX. It does not matter, the ESS is the cherry on top to harass someone else. The farming guys have 3 options.
- Stop farming partially or at all for 2h = mission accomplished (and if they chicken heads as long as there is a cloak alt in system)
- Trying to steal from the ESS after farming and may or may not get caught = mission accomplished
- Forming a fleet to kill alll 20 ESS = mission accomplished

Rinse and repeat that for 2 weeks and i bet Alliance B farming boys are pretty pissed and Alliance B has to deal with it one way or another.


1. If alliance A comes and drops one of these in alliance B's farming system nobody will rat while it is there.

2. If alliance A leaves a cloaky alt in system to babysit the ESS no one will undock to rat

3. If alliance A leaves an ESS in alliance B's system unattended alliance B ratters will blow it up

4. if alliance A parks a cloaky alt in system with no ESS deployed no one will undock to rat

Please tell me again how the ESS has changed anything/added content/acted as a conflict driver beyond just parking a cloaky alt in a ratting system? You wont get the square peg into the round hole no matter how long and hard you try.



You are 100% correct

Adding a new module will not force players to adapt. If it's there and afk cloaker is there...some may shoot it. But it will be rare and far between . It is easier to cyno out to a new system than bother with afk cloakers.

Leave no guard and it is guaranteed dead in a few minutes.

I will log to sisi today to look at the recent changes. But I still don't see this as a good investment of time. Either from a player perspective ie: did this make EvE more fun or from a programming resource point ie: let's make stuff nobody asked for or wants
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#2027 - 2014-01-23 16:53:43 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Jori McKie wrote:

So i have to explain in detail how this works?
Alliance B has 20 ratting/farming/ano systems whatever you call it where they kill NPCs for bounty.
Alliance A has a fleet ready may it via cyno or Blops, whatever
Alliance A wants to harass farming in the prime time of Alliance B for lets say 2h as strategic goal and with some luck getting a fight.

What does Alliance A do now without an ESS, put up 20 cloak alts in local, see whats going on. If you are smart enough who the **** cares about a cloak alt, sure your farming may be interrupted from time to time but the point is you can not shut down farming at all.

Now the ESS comes into play, same setup, 20 systems, 20 cloak alts in grid with the ESS. Still you can't shut down farming at all but you can annoy the hell out of those farming guys. Either way, you are getting the cash from the ESS or you kill an Interceptor/Frig trying to access the ESS via Blops or you kill XXXX. It does not matter, the ESS is the cherry on top to harass someone else. The farming guys have 3 options.
- Stop farming partially or at all for 2h = mission accomplished (and if they chicken heads as long as there is a cloak alt in system)
- Trying to steal from the ESS after farming and may or may not get caught = mission accomplished
- Forming a fleet to kill alll 20 ESS = mission accomplished

Rinse and repeat that for 2 weeks and i bet Alliance B farming boys are pretty pissed and Alliance B has to deal with it one way or another.


1. If alliance A comes and drops one of these in alliance B's farming system nobody will rat while it is there.

2. If alliance A leaves a cloaky alt in system to babysit the ESS no one will undock to rat

3. If alliance A leaves an ESS in alliance B's system unattended alliance B ratters will blow it up

4. if alliance A parks a cloaky alt in system with no ESS deployed no one will undock to rat

Please tell me again how the ESS has changed anything/added content/acted as a conflict driver beyond just parking a cloaky alt in a ratting system? You wont get the square peg into the round hole no matter how long and hard you try.



Ratting Corp A drops an ESS in their own system (They're not really alliance level assets. As everything happens at character level). to improve their isk/hr for ratting.

Roaming Gang B comes along. Maybe they'll get some tags, maybe not. more chance of a fight, as there's actually a reason to go out.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#2028 - 2014-01-23 17:05:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
with the new devblog i dont understand the function of the ESS now. let me get this right:

-null sec income nerfed by 5% for bounties

-ESS will still increase our bounty payments up to 105%

-ESS will also pay and aditional of up to 0.2 LP per 1000 isk on top of that

is this right? or am i missing something?

by that rule a pirate BS in the range of 1 million bounty would earn you 200k LP.....sweet :D
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2029 - 2014-01-23 17:07:02 UTC
They still have not explained why we need a blanket 5% nerf to income. I think as players we deserve a detailed explanation from a qualified economist

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#2030 - 2014-01-23 17:09:50 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
They still have not explained why we need a blanket 5% nerf to income. I think as players we deserve a detailed explanation from a qualified economist


5% of a bounty is nothing when you can gain even moar in LP items, this is not a nerf, its a buff actually.....unless someone points the contrary....
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#2031 - 2014-01-23 17:13:07 UTC
nevermind, my calculations were wrong. 0.2 per 1000 isk isnt a buff. a 1 million rat would earn you 200 LP....bad maths e.e
Qalix
Long Jump.
#2032 - 2014-01-23 17:19:21 UTC
WTF?

LP for rats!? So all that work we did for standings was for nothing. All the compromises the FW people had to make regarding standings is out the window. All the work maintaining the correct faction standings, all the see sawing, all of it was pointless.

I rarely come right and out say it, but this is quite possibly the dumbest change I've ever seen. You're not reining in nullsec ratters, you're buffing them. ESS went from activity disruption to activity bonus.

Why don't you just give every member of every sov holding alliance a couple billion isk and cut out the middleman? Oh wait. That's exactly what you're doing.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#2033 - 2014-01-23 17:25:37 UTC
So the final iteration added some more rewards and made the module more complex but doesn't really solve some issues.
I'm almost there with openly accepting the ESS and I think I could even learn to like it, however it has a lot of really odd/bad mechanics tacked on just to make it work.


Issue: 95% reduction in bounties is to slow inflation, however if the is module used it automatically makes bounties 100% possibly 105% and doesn't solve the inflation issues. This whole 5% still feels like an attempt to push people into using the module rather than any serious work to lower ISK income from NullSec.

Issue: Lore behind CONCORD and their cutting bounties is unbelievable, CONCORD can instantly travel anywhere in Empire, obliterate even capital ships but can't just adjust the true value of bounties across EVE, instead opting to just not pay 5% of what they said they would.

Solution Idea: Personally it would feel more beneficial/believable to lower the true values of Deadspace NPC bounties by 5% across EVE. This would have the desired reduction in ISK income, remove a confusing mechanic for people moving to NullSec for the first time, makes belt rats a little more valuable (considering their worthless vs anomalies as it is). This makes the lore more believable and the mechanics easier for everyone to understand.


Issue: Navy Faction stores don't offer industry implants/modules and if the ESS is highly used it may devalue a lot of LP items.

Solution idea: Create a new NPC Corporation for each Empire which is established specifically to build relations with the NullSec Capsuleer Alliances in order to try and keep them loyal, or work to mitigate their loss of control.
From these corporations CCP can set specific items and prices, this means if CCP want modules like Navy Hardeners to still be a HighSec only earned item they don't add them to the store. The stores could instread focus on the items to make NullSec players every day lives easier, faction ammo, learning and hardwiring implants for example.
Then have the option to install an LP Store/Office in your outposts for a cost per month (ISK SINK!) meaning players no longer need to fly back to Empire to cash this LP in, they earn the LP in their space and get their rewards in their space.

Other ideas:

* Accessing the ESS without standings requires the hacking minigame, however the ESS would have no bubble/super-point.

This gives roaming gangs two options, bring a skilled hacker/ship to steal from their targets or just shoot the thing and break it to "burn the fields" for a while.
This also takes away some of the risk of instantly losing your money to roaming gangs but adds the annoyance that a roaming gang can come break your ISK printer. Reinforcement timers could be added to stop players repairing the module too soon meaning a burn does damage their income potential for a period of time. There could also be a chance/set % of ISK lost if your ESS is reinfoced this way.
Gangs are more likely to fight if they see their ESS is being hit and they will lose that money if they don't stop the assault in time.


Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2034 - 2014-01-23 17:25:53 UTC
Qalix wrote:
...all of it was pointless.


My autobiography is going to be titled

ALL OF IT WAS POINTLESS
7 Years in EVE Online

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2035 - 2014-01-23 17:27:37 UTC
Qalix wrote:
I rarely come right and out say it, but this is quite possibly the dumbest change I've ever seen. You're not reining in nullsec ratters, you're buffing them. ESS went from activity disruption to activity bonus.

Just as it should be. Nullsec ratting has not had the level of reward it should have given the risk for some time.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2036 - 2014-01-23 17:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
A few points I want to bring up that weren't addressed in the blog:

1.) The ESS needs a means to inhibit it's distribution timer. I tested this last night, and this is what I found:
I can land next to the ESS and immediately hit access and choose take all, starting the 3.5 minute timer to grab the loot or I share all, starting the 30 s timer to share the loot. There are only two ways to stop me: a.) destroy my ship. b.) get me to leave the proximity of the ESS (15 km radius). It would be very nice if a mechanic existed where a player could stop this count-down. I can think of several ways to do it:

Option 1: Target the ESS. This would force those on grid to chase off anyone that's preventing the timer from counting down.
Option 2: Damage the ESS, were every the damage delivered creates a proportional extension in the delivery times. (example, +60 seconds for every 6000 damage it receives).
Option 3: Counter-access the ESS. Allow a pilot that lands next to the ESS to access it and choose "stop" to prevent the ESS from completing its timer. The means you and the other pilot would both be within 15 km's of the ESS.

Note: Ideally the ESS would name the pilot responsible for activating it. And ideally the ESS would name the pilot responsible for hindering the timer from counting down.

2.) As pointed out, if someone can successfully deploy this inside the Sun, where your ship will be ejected out upon landing, this might be considered an exploit. I'll try doing this on Sisi tonight (if I can find a system where I have the sun's center bookmarked).
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2037 - 2014-01-23 17:36:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And when are you going to significantly increase the number of anomalies per system which desperately needs to be done?


What, so someone who is botting in a system with 2 accounts can now bot with 4?


Hard to bot anomalies in the Forge....
Crakachunky
Elite Mining Services
#2038 - 2014-01-23 17:45:33 UTC
step 1:
create procedurally generated fleet based PVE content that takes notes from actual PVP meta, and don't just guess, interview lots of the celebrity status small gang FC's.
things they should have in common with incursions- split ISK payouts, different sites for different fleet sizes, cyno jammed, random locations, 2-3 spawn at a time in the same system, more ISK for bigger sites
things they should not have in common- system beacons are a no, constellation clumped, showing up on the map

step 2:
implement OPTIONAL ESS, set it to take ALL the ISK for a fleet, with 125% payout after
tags are stupid forget tags
options are good, take all or dish out (to fleet)
cashout timer set to 5mins
ship that cashes out is disabled (akin to lighting cyno)
for the ESS to be applicable to the fleet it must be on grid, as in, in the site the fleet is currently running


what we have now is ISK making fleet activities for many sizes and shapes (can limit ship types for sites with activation gates)
-PVP fit small fleets now roam alliance space chilling out and making ISK together, ESS enhances this BUT...
-if used it allows rival PVP gangs to come in and FIGHT for the RIGHT to STEAL your ISK (hence the ESS disabling ship + keeping total ISK until payout), there is the risk for reward
-roaming fleets are now varied because to use your space effectively more than one ship type or fleet composition will be needed
-sites that you are not interested allow ninja fleets to roam your space and clear it up
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc
#2039 - 2014-01-23 17:47:33 UTC
Sad to see this thing still being pushed out the door, with all its inconsistencies and tacked on mechanics to force "making it work", instead of being a nice and simple solution to a problem.

KISS-principle clearly not at work here.
Darth Kilth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2040 - 2014-01-23 17:50:34 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Qalix wrote:
...all of it was pointless.


My autobiography is going to be titled

ALL OF IT WAS POINTLESS
7 Years in EVE Online

I'd buy it.