These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Let me buy Skill Points with Plex.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#101 - 2014-01-14 15:37:07 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
The only difference between being able to buy SP for your current toon (the current proposal) and buying the SP in the Character Bizarr on another toon that has more where you want it is that it may destroy the Character Bazaar market (and many posting here seem to have a vested interest in that). I also agree that it would likely inflate the price of PLEX in terms of Isk. But I don't see that as necessarily game breaking by any means. It is ridiculously easy to earn enough isk to buy a PLEX.

I think we're getting to the root issue of why you think this is ok. You dont really understand the concept of economics.

Its just like buying a PLEX and selling it for ISK. When you do that no ISK is created, it's just transferred from one player to another, and these player transfers follow the laws of supply and demand, the price changes on a daily basis. This is called an open market.

Now imagine with me if CCP came out and said "we're implementing a new program, you pay us $20 and we'll give you 750,000,000 ISK" Well they would have to spawn it into the game to do that, and at first I imagine this would go very well for them; they would see several people shelling out the cash to make this happen, but over time as more and more ISK was just dumped into the system haphazardly, inflation would begin to show. Having a billion ISK would mean less and less because everyone has a billion ISK, soon prices would start to rise everywhere across new eden because the ISK has begun to lose its buying power. Soon the $20 for 750 million looks like a bad deal because even day 1 noobs have that after doing some mining. This is called inflation

See when someone buys a character from the character bazaar, no additional SP are created. This means that if say tomorrow 50,000 people all wanted new characters, the price would go up because there is a limited supply.

What you want would be for CCP to give you SP when you spend a PLEX which is an entirely different thing. CCP would have to essentially spawn new SP into the game and give it to you out of nowhere. This means that SP is slightly more common every time you do that. This would make SP worth less and less until it was worthless.

All that being said, you're probably just going to ignore this post or somehow ignorantly justify you way around it because you want to continue to believe what you want to believe without regards for logic or facts.


The reason I am going to ignore this post is that there is no logic in equating SP to isk. One is a currency for buying the tools of the game. The other is the ability to use the tools. They are not the same and not as freely traded.

This "inflation" of SP that you imaging would happen is easily controlled by the suggestions above: Limit how much and where the SP could be spent.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#102 - 2014-01-14 15:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
You're completely missing his point. Your complaint is that you want to buy SP in order for new characters to be useful, but by allowing such a thing you instantly raise the required amount of SP for "usefulness" by an order of magnitude or more. Your "limits" are meaningless. The fact that you don't see how useless they are underscores your naivete and your lack of understanding of how EVE's community works.

Let's say that this idea is implemented and suddenly the bottom limit for "useful" jumps to 150m SP. EVE is a long-term game played (mostly) by people who have long attention spans. If you need to wait three, four, five, six months in order to reach a combined trained and purchased total of 150m SP to be useful, then that's what others will expect of you.

Your solution creates many, many more problems and solves none.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#103 - 2014-01-14 15:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Tchulen wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
In condemning EVE for having a small playerbase, OP demonstrates he is unaware of the old adage "quality over quantity".

EVE is not small because of skill training. It is small because it is very niche, because it is not as casual as those larger games, because it doesn't have the same "everyone gets a cookie" mechanics that the great unwashed masses get so angry without. It does not hold your hand, it does not solve the problem for you, it does not do a great many things that industry wisdom says your game must have, must do, must be if you want it to be this year's biggest blockbuster mega-hit.

It does not - and should not - appeal to everyone.


Nothing worthy would appeal to everyone, I grant you. Appealing to only 50,000 people on planet Earth is not really appealing to *anyone* when that is a fraction of 1% of the gaming population.

I say stop defending a status quo and try to broaden the appeal of this game. Why? Because I think it is an *amazing game* based on it's minimal system requirements. It will run on a basic internet appliance and is probably coming to a smart phone near you soon.

Appealing to 50,000 people isn't "not appealing to anyone" as you put it. It's apealing to 50,000 people. If you had your way, EVE would go the way of SWG NGE. You'd kill it just because you're too simple to comprehend the larger implications of the effects of your demands on anything bigger than yourself.

Luckily for me and all the other people that understand and actually enjoy playing EVE, CCP will never acquiesce to your request. The reason they won't is because they're not stupid. I do notice, however, that the people who post this demand of yours are generally pretty dumb but then that's to be expected, I suppose. Anyone with an ounce of nous wouldn't suggest such a suckingly stupid thing and certainly wouldn't keep arguing for it.


That's a great argument you have there. I'll summarize it for you:

"50,000 people (after 12 years) playing a game out of the 500 Million Gamers (conservative estimate) Worldwide (0.1%) are onto something amazing. The rest of the people are stupid. Strange, the game never gets more popular. I just don't get why people don't want to spend years playing time dilated spreadsheets in space."
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#104 - 2014-01-14 15:45:46 UTC
Nope!

plex for SP is bad and you should feel bad, its basically Pay 2 win.

start new account
pay for plex
instant vet SP amounts.

it would kill the character bazaar
it would make RMT more of a problem then it already is
it would make plex prices go stupidly high meaning those who plex their accounts wouldnt be able to play anymore and the market would be hit hard not to mention the balance of isk In and out and Cash in too

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#105 - 2014-01-14 15:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
OP seems to mistake the PCU for the total number of subscribers. EVE has more than 50,000 registered and active accounts; last time we heard anything from Reykjavik on the matter, it was 500,000 if not slightly over. Accounting for alts, that number is somewhat lower - maybe between 300,000 and 400,000 - but still a considerable sum more than the only 50,000 OP gives credit for and certainly enough accounts to keep CCP - and EVE - going for many years to come (provided they don't horribly mismanage that money).
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#106 - 2014-01-14 15:48:57 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You're completely missing his point. Your complaint is that you want to buy SP in order for new characters to be useful, but by allowing such a thing you instantly raise the required amount of SP for "usefulness" by an order of magnitude or more. Your "limits" are meaningless. The fact that you don't see how useless they are underscores your naivete and your lack of understanding of how EVE's community works.

Let's say that this idea is implemented and suddenly the bottom limit for "useful" jumps to 150m SP. EVE is a long-term game played (mostly) by people who have long attention spans. If you need to wait three, four, five, six months in order to reach a combined trained and purchased total of 150m SP to be useful, then that's what others will expect of you.

Your solution creates many, many more problems and solves none.



Can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#107 - 2014-01-14 15:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
That's the worst and most useless reply in the history of these forums. You should feel ashamed of yourself for taking such a lazy, cop-out route as that.

I won't get into how nobody asked for and indeed nobody needs that omelet.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#108 - 2014-01-14 15:55:28 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Nope!

plex for SP is bad and you should feel bad, its basically Pay 2 win.

start new account
pay for plex
instant vet SP amounts.

it would kill the character bazaar
it would make RMT more of a problem then it already is
it would make plex prices go stupidly high meaning those who plex their accounts wouldnt be able to play anymore and the market would be hit hard not to mention the balance of isk In and out and Cash in too


Please explain to me how Goons does not "Pay to win"? They can deploy vastly greater resources than any others to my knowledge....when you have more resources it's straight n+1 to a victory in a fleet battle.

Might it not help bring in fresh blood faster and maybe give an actual challenge to the Eve establishment?
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#109 - 2014-01-14 15:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
That's the worst and most useless reply in the history of these forums. You should feel ashamed of yourself for taking such a lazy, cop-out route as that.

I won't get into how nobody asked for and indeed nobody needs that omelet.



Who are you to speak to what the millions of people that have tried this game and found it lacking want? At least I am willing to try and improve it rather than simply defend a status quo that is lacking.
Barbaydos
420 Enterprises.
The Initiative.
#110 - 2014-01-14 15:56:30 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Nope!

it would make plex prices go stupidly high meaning those who plex their accounts wouldnt be able to play anymore and the market would be hit hard not to mention the balance of isk In and out and Cash in too


not so, CCP goes to great lengths to keep the price of plex under control, with specials and bundle deals for PLEX, the price of plex has fallen from a high of like 650mil per down to about 610 per and its still dropping.

If the OP's idea was implemented in form yes the price of plex would soar for a few months then fall again as the inital demand ends / people start running out of isk/money to spend on it. end result that plex would probably end up about 200-300 mil higher than current i guess.

the op's idea could (and i say could not anything else) be good if it could be implemented in a limited form, say once the character has reached 3m SP the option would be removed from that char. yes it could result in a flood of ~3m SP chars being dumped on the bazaar but it would remove some of the grind for the lower SP chars who are most likely new players.

alternatively CCP could just grant all new accounts 60 days of enhanced learning time where there skills train at a faster pace. this way we could avoid all the issues with plex/rmt/char selling etc etc etc.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#111 - 2014-01-14 15:58:26 UTC
50,000 is better than 25,000 which is what I suspect would happen within a short amount of time if you got what you wanted. Then 10,000... 5,000 and CCP would have to shut down the servers from lack of revenue.

You might be unaware of SWG. Starwars Galaxies was a pretty awesome game. It was deep, had a market similar to EVE's and was genuine fun to play.

Then a load of people like you started screaming on the forums things like:

"It's too hard. I want it to be easier"

"I want to be a jedi"

"Why does my stuff have to break after I've used it for ages? I want my stuff not to break... ever"

"It's too hard to gain levels. I want to get more xp for the time I'm playing"

"Why can't I just be top level? Why do I actually have to play the game?"

As in, things like you're saying.

So, SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) gave the screaming masses what they wanted. The people who loved the game for what it was left. The people who were screaming on the forums for things to be changed turned out to have very low attention spans, not want to play in a game where the people who knew what they were doing were leaving and didn't really give a crap about the game anyway and they had to shut down the servers and the game died a death.

Moral of the story here is EVE is a more established game with a loyal player base who know the difference between good and bad changes, are smart enough to be able to see from past experience what dumbing down the game would actually do and whilst you might not see it they're only actually against the stupid change requests which would be detrimental to the game overall. Listen to them. Stop trying to screw the game we all love just because you don't understand it. Don't be one of the idiots that screwed SWG and then moved on because they never really cared about what they were crying about in the first place. This is why people will argue with you and in fact not stop arguing with you.

These people telling you that what you're asking for would be detrimental really do know what they're talking about.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#112 - 2014-01-14 15:59:42 UTC
Barbaydos wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Nope!

it would make plex prices go stupidly high meaning those who plex their accounts wouldnt be able to play anymore and the market would be hit hard not to mention the balance of isk In and out and Cash in too


not so, CCP goes to great lengths to keep the price of plex under control, with specials and bundle deals for PLEX, the price of plex has fallen from a high of like 650mil per down to about 610 per and its still dropping.

If the OP's idea was implemented in form yes the price of plex would soar for a few months then fall again as the inital demand ends / people start running out of isk/money to spend on it. end result that plex would probably end up about 200-300 mil higher than current i guess.

the op's idea could (and i say could not anything else) be good if it could be implemented in a limited form, say once the character has reached 3m SP the option would be removed from that char. yes it could result in a flood of ~3m SP chars being dumped on the bazaar but it would remove some of the grind for the lower SP chars who are most likely new players.

alternatively CCP could just grant all new accounts 60 days of enhanced learning time where there skills train at a faster pace. this way we could avoid all the issues with plex/rmt/char selling etc etc etc.





Or simply reduce the multiplier (1x v 5x etc) on the training times for certain skills. It's all the same, the idea is to make Eve fun sooner and hook people.
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#113 - 2014-01-14 16:00:45 UTC
Since you are obviously too dense to read complex sentences:



SP don't get destroyed (when you're smart), fitting officer mods on a ship and dying in it gives a share of your wealth to the person that scoops the loot.

But I fear that was too complex again.

tl;dr: Your idea is stupid, get out, and stop arguing since you obviously can't fathom the consequences.

My Condor costs less than that module!
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#114 - 2014-01-14 16:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sraggles
Tchulen wrote:
50,000 is better than 25,000 which is what I suspect would happen within a short amount of time if you got what you wanted. Then 10,000... 5,000 and CCP would have to shut down the servers from lack of revenue.

You might be unaware of SWG. Starwars Galaxies was a pretty awesome game. It was deep, had a market similar to EVE's and was genuine fun to play.

Then a load of people like you started screaming on the forums things like:

"It's too hard. I want it to be easier"

"I want to be a jedi"

"Why does my stuff have to break after I've used it for ages? I want my stuff not to break... ever"

"It's too hard to gain levels. I want to get more xp for the time I'm playing"

"Why can't I just be top level? Why do I actually have to play the game?"

As in, things like you're saying.

So, SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) gave the screaming masses what they wanted. The people who loved the game for what it was left. The people who were screaming on the forums for things to be changed turned out to have very low attention spans, not want to play in a game where the people who knew what they were doing were leaving and didn't really give a crap about the game anyway and they had to shut down the servers and the game died a death.

Moral of the story here is EVE is a more established game with a loyal player base who know the difference between good and bad changes, are smart enough to be able to see from past experience what dumbing down the game would actually do and whilst you might not see it they're only actually against the stupid change requests which would be detrimental to the game overall. Listen to them. Stop trying to screw the game we all love just because you don't understand it. Don't be one of the idiots that screwed SWG and then moved on because they never really cared about what they were crying about in the first place. This is why people will argue with you and in fact not stop arguing with you.

These people telling you that what you're asking for would be detrimental really do know what they're talking about.


Look dude, I've been gaming since they invented them. I have seen the good and the great and have nearly played them all. What drives people away is nothing new to do and New Content is the most expensive to develop. Games die when the Devs refuse to spend to create new content. That is an Economics equation based on their belief in the game's future.

Now, if you want to have a discussion about how there is rarely anything new to do in Eve for more established players I am quite sure the Devs would love to hear our suggestions.

My suggestion is about getting people through some of the worst of the first 6 mos when you really need an income and can't fly anything that really produces one.

I agree that the Character Bazaar is where you should go for Capital SP. I don't think letting people have AWU 5 for ~$20 is game breaking.

But it is my opinion that making people do nothing else but advance their toon by 2% PG for weapons for nearly a month is a deal breaker for the majority of hardcore gamers. This is evidenced by the fact that the vast majority find Eve lacking.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#115 - 2014-01-14 16:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
That's the worst and most useless reply in the history of these forums. You should feel ashamed of yourself for taking such a lazy, cop-out route as that.

I won't get into how nobody asked for and indeed nobody needs that omelet.



Who are you to speak to what the millions of people that have tried this game and found it lacking want? At least I am willing to try and improve it rather than simply defend a status quo that is lacking.


I am an EVE player, an account-holder since 2008, someone who pays careful attention to what I see and someone with a proper understanding of cause and effect in EVE, gained slowly over time. In short, I am someone who is sufficiently educated in the nature of the proverbial beast to make reasonably accurate judgements regarding what is or is not obviously detrimental to EVE and its community.

Those millions who found EVE lacking, who you now attempt to crusade for despite their total lack of interest? Not all of them declined to subscribe (or continue their subscriptions) because of the skill system. Of the ones who did find the skill system to be their reason for leaving, how many more would have left anyway because of something else? Even if this change was made, there would still be another change and another change and another change to be made, all in the name of "mass appeal".

I don't think you actually care about EVE at all. I don't think you actually care about other players at all. I don't actually think you really want to help anyone.

I think you just want to feel special and important because you play a game with more subscribers than WoW and you're willing to destroy EVE in order to get what you want.

Get out.
Halaxi
Mind Games.
#116 - 2014-01-14 16:22:04 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Topic says it all.

For the Price of a PLEX why not let me buy a month's worth of SP (@ say, 2500 SP/Hr) that I can then allocate as I choose?

Time is precious to us all. I would like to be able to dump that month's worth of SP into those Level 5 skills that are so painful to train. Then I can buy a plex and finally get T2 Torps and Covops 5 or Cyno 5 etc and not twiddle my thumbs on the rest of my skills while I wait.

PLEX prices rise, CCP profits.

No, I don't want to buy another toon with millions of SP that are not in areas I am interested in, I want unallocated SP for PLEX that I can put precisely where I want it.

/discuss


Why don't you think about how this can possibly backfire on you, the community and the game in general, and then you'll arrive at the reasoning that CCP have for not introducing this in the countless previous times that it has been mentioned.

Hal.
Why yes, yes I am going to shoot you.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#117 - 2014-01-14 16:26:54 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
That's the worst and most useless reply in the history of these forums. You should feel ashamed of yourself for taking such a lazy, cop-out route as that.

I won't get into how nobody asked for and indeed nobody needs that omelet.



Who are you to speak to what the millions of people that have tried this game and found it lacking want? At least I am willing to try and improve it rather than simply defend a status quo that is lacking.


I am an EVE player, an account-holder since 2008, someone who pays careful attention to what I see and someone with a proper understanding of cause and effect in EVE, gained slowly over time. In short, I am someone who is sufficiently educated in the nature of the proverbial beast to make reasonably accurate judgements regarding what is or is not obviously detrimental to EVE and its community.

Those millions who found EVE lacking, who you now attempt to crusade for despite their total lack of interest? Not all of them declined to subscribe (or continue their subscriptions) because of the skill system. Of the ones who did find the skill system to be their reason for leaving, how many more would have left anyway because of something else? Even if this change was made, there would still be another change and another change and another change to be made, all in the name of "mass appeal".

I don't think you actually care about EVE at all. I don't think you actually care about other players at all. I don't actually think you really want to help anyone.

I think you just want to feel special and important because you play a game with more subscribers than WoW and you're willing to destroy EVE in order to get what you want.

Get out.


That is some argument you have there. I like the "get out" particularly.

I wish you were in the room so you could stamp your feet loudly.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#118 - 2014-01-14 16:27:14 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:
My suggestion is about getting people through some of the worst of the first 6 mos when you really need an income and can't fly anything that really produces one.


This is your problem. How is it that I (and I assume most of the people disagreeing with you) didn't have a problem with it? I joined long before the new player experiences were introduced and I still didn't have a problem with it. Now, I agree that the new player stuff is better than before, having played through it but I simply can't agree with you about being able to buy SP in any form whatsoever.

It isn't needed. I didn't need it. No one that I know who plays or has played EVE needed it. Why is that, do you think? Why is it that we didn't need to buy SP but you seem to think that anyone who isn't currently playing the game needs it? I didn't need it as I was learning to play the game at the time and so the speed of progression was correct. The only reason that wouldn't be so is if you're not talking about new players but instead you're really talking about yourself.

This is my guess: You don't give two craps about new players. What you want is the ability to boost your alts immediately to the point that they're useful. You don't want to wait for the time it would take a new player to learn how to play the game as you don't need to for your alts as you've already learned. You don't want to come on the forum and say that as you know you'd get seriously booted for it so you come here claiming to be all altruistic and only thinking of the new players.

Nice.
Dr Sraggles
The Covenant of Blood
#119 - 2014-01-14 16:34:37 UTC
Halaxi wrote:
Dr Sraggles wrote:
Topic says it all.

For the Price of a PLEX why not let me buy a month's worth of SP (@ say, 2500 SP/Hr) that I can then allocate as I choose?

Time is precious to us all. I would like to be able to dump that month's worth of SP into those Level 5 skills that are so painful to train. Then I can buy a plex and finally get T2 Torps and Covops 5 or Cyno 5 etc and not twiddle my thumbs on the rest of my skills while I wait.

PLEX prices rise, CCP profits.

No, I don't want to buy another toon with millions of SP that are not in areas I am interested in, I want unallocated SP for PLEX that I can put precisely where I want it.

/discuss


Why don't you think about how this can possibly backfire on you, the community and the game in general, and then you'll arrive at the reasoning that CCP have for not introducing this in the countless previous times that it has been mentioned.

Hal.


Hal, there has been quite a bit of good back and forth in the thread between people with well reasoned arguments along with the usual internet attempts at bullying and ad hominem attacks.

The reality is that such attacks usually mean you are on to something or are endangering a vested interest.

The best single counter is that it would lead to PLEX inflation or that if it was unlimited we would all spend our isk on SP and nothing else.

Both of these are addressed with a modification of the OP to limit how much SP you would be able to purchase and what skills it could be applied to.

In the final analysis my suggestion comes down to this:

Why not pay CCP (instead of just getting it for free) for the ability to get a few of those really painful Level 5 skills that new players really want at the beginning of their play so that they can make it to earning isk easily to fund their endeavors and be competitive in PvP.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2014-01-14 16:35:12 UTC
Dr Sraggles wrote:


My suggestion is about getting people through some of the worst of the first 6 mos when you really need an income and can't fly anything that really produces one.



Again I can only re-iterate my own experience here, within 6 weeks I was plexing my account by flying a retriever (whilst having enough combat skills to mission up to the hardest lvl II mission).

4 months in and I'm building starbase control towers. I have done nothing particularly clever or fancy as far as I can tell, just used the training to focus on a given goal at a time. I'm pretty sure that if I had focused my training time purely into combat skills I would have (on paper, my PvP skills are ummm...well...) been a highly competent frigate and probably destroyer pilot and fully capable of taking on far older characters in the correct battle ground with the correct companions in the hunt.

I don't think that this progression is at all slow, to be honest I'm still learning a lot of things about how to use the skills I've developed. Simply buying the SP would have left me clueless on how to utilise the character created and would not have invested any satisfaction at having gotten to the point I am at.

I think that the problem you are trying to solve with this thread is the perceived lack of instant combat gratification. I don't think that Eve is about instant anything, it is designed to be immersive and complex. Maybe rather than buying SP characters who want instant all out combat could enroll in FW academies with other new players so inclined. Here they would be given ships to fly in a localized region (the gates will not allow the ship to pass out of the region) and practice hunting/combat against other new players with tutorials on tackling, scanning etc thrown in.

If they wish to leave the academy region they must fly their own ship and can run through the standard career tutorials as usual. At least this way they would get straight combat on a more like for like basis whilst still having the option of (and hopefully being tempted into) exploring the larger universe and its possibilities.