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Gallente-Caldari Relations, Are They Improving?

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Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#121 - 2014-01-21 22:11:30 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:


You read like a Gallentean liberal sipping expensive coffee on the Crystal Boulevarde, these days Mr. Baracca.

Disappointing, but unsurprising I suppose. They probably cannot stomach War, either.


I think it was you who recently talked to me about doing something so that others wouldn't have to, Veikitamo. This is what I do.

There's a reason that I still at least treat myself to the expensive cognac. God willing, you'll be able to remain as you are to the end of your days.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#122 - 2014-01-22 00:12:05 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

God willing, you'll be able to remain as you are to the end of your days.


So long as humanity remains defined by conflict and adversity arising from our differences and not our similarities, then I have no doubt that I will.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#123 - 2014-01-22 00:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
War teaches us the best and worst about our enemies but, more importantly, about our friends.

Who mouths pleasant words and pats you on the back? Who belittles you and denigrates your service? Who is willing to fly with you, out where the metal meets the meat? Who are the barracks soldiers and who are willing to get their hands dirty?

And who is really willing to sacrifice in the name of their people? Sacrifice more than mere money, more than just blood, but the things that they thought made them who they are?

Mere money....

Well noble sentiments to be true, but they ring hollow coming from someone to whom "death" means very little.

Mere money indeed.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#124 - 2014-01-22 01:55:43 UTC
I do hope that the State pays attention past lessons of Heth and the current lessons of Shakor as a warning to the price of eternal conflict, or the means in which politicians so often use flag waving militarism simply as a means of personal gain at the expense of their own people.

I do hope that the Federation does so as well, and also demands that their elected leaders (such a quaint idea) actually live up to their own proclaimed ideals, for if this much is done then peace can be the only desired outcome.

Only in most psychologically oppressive societies can the majority of the great masses of a population be be tricked into truly desiring war. Nay, it always the leaders, the generals, the media tycoons, and their ilk who desire it - for they have the most to gain and the least to lose.

After all, it is not the sons and daughters of Roden or Shakor who will fight & die for your flags. They merely collect the "glory" left in destruction's wake. These men do not have the best interest of their people at heart, only their own self interest.

Well, Heth was removed. The State has always been good about keeping their own house in order. Now it up to the rest of New Eden to do the same. I pray that they do.

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#125 - 2014-01-22 02:42:45 UTC
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
I do hope that the State pays attention past lessons of Heth and the current lessons of Shakor as a warning to the price of eternal conflict, or the means in which politicians so often use flag waving militarism simply as a means of personal gain at the expense of their own people.


The only lesson I find to be learned is the necessity of ensuring no single man is able to overstep the mandates on their power over the society they govern. The failure of Tibus Heth was not in the instigation or prosecution of armed conflict in the national interest, but rather the belief he alone had the authority to dictate terms to the CEP.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#126 - 2014-01-22 16:19:03 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
War teaches us the best and worst about our enemies but, more importantly, about our friends.

Who mouths pleasant words and pats you on the back? Who belittles you and denigrates your service? Who is willing to fly with you, out where the metal meets the meat? Who are the barracks soldiers and who are willing to get their hands dirty?

And who is really willing to sacrifice in the name of their people? Sacrifice more than mere money, more than just blood, but the things that they thought made them who they are?

Mere money....

Well noble sentiments to be true, but they ring hollow coming from someone to whom "death" means very little.

Mere money indeed.


You do not need to fly expensive ships packed with crew to participate to the fullest in the CEMWPA. You can. People do. My kirjuun and I often kill ships that cost more than we'll lose all month. I think that I've lost less than a billion isk in my year in the warzone, all told.

And you are right, of course, that I cannot make the supreme sacrifice. Not that I'd want to. Everyone of us who flies ought to be aware that our crews put more on the line than we ever will. I do my part to ensure that my kirjuun who do fall or suffer crippling wounds do not have to worry about finances, medical care or care for their family. Each of them is memorialised, both by myself and back at Kalaakiota from where they come.

I am told I have lost other things, however. That my attitudes have changed. My character. My personality. That I have lost something that is left behind amidst the wreckage and cold flesh that I've left between the stars. I referred to that.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#127 - 2014-01-22 17:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
I have to admit to a degree of amusement in the irony that the greatest amount of anti-war sentiment comes from capsuleers that have no involvement in the present CEWPA conflict who will gladly bemoan the deaths in the warzone yet always remain silent about the greater destruction and lives lost in null-security space.

Who also knew the CEWPA war had such a vicarious effect of weariness on those the least affected by it, save as a topic to profess platitudes of peace from the safety and comfort of the sidelines.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#128 - 2014-01-22 18:03:17 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I have to admit to a degree of amusement in the irony that the greatest amount of anti-war sentiment comes from capsuleers that have no involvement in the present CEWPA conflict who will gladly bemoan the deaths in the warzone yet always remain silent about the greater destruction and lives lost in null-security space.

Who also knew the CEWPA war had such a vicarious effect of weariness on those the least affected by it, save as a topic to profess platitudes of peace from the safety and comfort of the sidelines.


I don't think it's that ironic, really. Most capsuleers who aren't taking part in the CEWPA are probably those who have a moral distaste for the conflict. It isn't as if the Empires haven't given us every opportunity to dive in.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#129 - 2014-01-22 18:12:42 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I have to admit to a degree of amusement in the irony that the greatest amount of anti-war sentiment comes from capsuleers that have no involvement in the present CEWPA conflict who will gladly bemoan the deaths in the warzone yet always remain silent about the greater destruction and lives lost in null-security space.

Who also knew the CEWPA war had such a vicarious effect of weariness on those the least affected by it, save as a topic to profess platitudes of peace from the safety and comfort of the sidelines.


I don't think it's that ironic, really. Most capsuleers who aren't taking part in the CEWPA are probably those who have a moral distaste for the conflict. It isn't as if the Empires haven't given us every opportunity to dive in.


Ah, yes. The same kinds of people who, as an example, will pronounce the CEWPA war as immoral while on the other hand gladly producing and purchasing the products made from Promethium, Dysprosium and Technetium from a null-sec Conglomerate who acquired those resources usually at the cost of tens to hundreds of thousands of lives in a capital engagement and come here to say, "Look, my hands are clean, and the armaments I build and sell don't kill people. People kill people."


Kurilaivonen|Concern
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2014-01-22 18:19:54 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I have to admit to a degree of amusement in the irony that the greatest amount of anti-war sentiment comes from capsuleers that have no involvement in the present CEWPA conflict who will gladly bemoan the deaths in the warzone yet always remain silent about the greater destruction and lives lost in null-security space.

Who also knew the CEWPA war had such a vicarious effect of weariness on those the least affected by it, save as a topic to profess platitudes of peace from the safety and comfort of the sidelines.


I don't think it's that ironic, really. Most capsuleers who aren't taking part in the CEWPA are probably those who have a moral distaste for the conflict. It isn't as if the Empires haven't given us every opportunity to dive in.


Ah, yes. The same kinds of people who, as an example, will pronounce the CEWPA war as immoral while on the other hand gladly producing and purchasing the products made from Promethium, Dysprosium and Technetium from a null-sec Conglomerate who acquired those resources usually at the cost of tens to hundreds of thousands of lives in a capital engagement and come here to say, "Look, my hands are clean, and the armaments I build and sell don't kill people. People kill people."




No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other. However, per your concerns, it would be an excellent idea to end those battles, then turn outward to expand high-security space with an increased force presence. That way, we can enforce legal codices further from our imperial interiors.

I like the way you think, Veikitamo! More high security space, especially those parts which are still teeming with resources, would be a much more effective use for our armed forces than the CEWPA conflict. We would then be able to protect more people and employ them in more useful roles. At least it would stop the random violence occurring in empty space between Titan fleets. Then, we would at least have access to more humanely sourced resources for our ship-building ventures.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#131 - 2014-01-22 18:27:22 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:


No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other. However, per your concerns, it would be an excellent idea to end those battles, then turn outward to expand high-security space with an increased force presence. That way, we can enforce legal codices further from our imperial interiors.

I like the way you think, Veikitamo! More high security space, especially those parts which are still teeming with resources, would be a much more effective use for our armed forces than the CEWPA conflict. We would then be able to protect more people and employ them in more useful roles. At least it would stop the random violence occurring in empty space between Titan fleets. Then, we would at least have access to more humanely sourced resources for our ship-building ventures.


Countless Federal Galnet bloggers have no doubt expressed the very same sentiments while failing to realize that the very legal structures of CONCORD and its signatories is what makes the injustices they rail against morally, possible.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#132 - 2014-01-22 18:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Constantin Baracca wrote:
No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other.


Our militiaries are not tied up fighting each other. That is the problem with the CEWPA conflict. It is limited and pointless, conducted between primarily capsuleer forces over relatively unimportant areas of space. The CEWPA rules need to be put aside so that our full military can be brought into the conflict.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#133 - 2014-01-22 20:46:50 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other.


Our militiaries are not tied up fighting each other. That is the problem with the CEWPA conflict. It is limited and pointless, conducted between primarily capsuleer forces over relatively unimportant areas of space. The CEWPA rules need to be put aside so that our full military can be brought into the conflict.

To what end? We would still be fighting over the same systems, we would just have more people doing it. Not to mention the increase in taxes to fund the involvement of the military's assets. It would remain a never ending war, it would just get a lot more messy and expensive.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#134 - 2014-01-22 21:08:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
War teaches us the best and worst about our enemies but, more importantly, about our friends.
Who mouths pleasant words and pats you on the back? Who belittles you and denigrates your service? Who is willing to fly with you, out where the metal meets the meat? Who are the barracks soldiers and who are willing to get their hands dirty?
And who is really willing to sacrifice in the name of their people? Sacrifice more than mere money, more than just blood, but the things that they thought made them who they are?

Mere money....
Well noble sentiments to be true, but they ring hollow coming from someone to whom "death" means very little.
Mere money indeed.

You do not need to fly expensive ships packed with crew to participate to the fullest in the CEMWPA. You can. People do. My kirjuun and I often kill ships that cost more than we'll lose all month. I think that I've lost less than a billion isk in my year in the warzone, all told.
And you are right, of course, that I cannot make the supreme sacrifice. Not that I'd want to. Everyone of us who flies ought to be aware that our crews put more on the line than we ever will. I do my part to ensure that my kirjuun who do fall or suffer crippling wounds do not have to worry about finances, medical care or care for their family. Each of them is memorialised, both by myself and back at Kalaakiota from where they come.
I am told I have lost other things, however. That my attitudes have changed. My character. My personality. That I have lost something that is left behind amidst the wreckage and cold flesh that I've left between the stars. I referred to that.

Life is profit and loss.

You have my apologies; I misunderstood the focus of your post.

Some give to little consideration to those for whom our schemes are final.

Personally I avoid being shot at, as I learned my value early on, playing to ones strengths is more profitable.

Don’t we all struggle for what we believe in our own way?

I have to admit that it is a shame the empires won’t let us use overt economics as a weapon.

But I suppose that would be too costly to all the “right” people.

Focus on the gains Pieter, forget the rest… if you can.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#135 - 2014-01-22 21:22:02 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other.


Our militiaries are not tied up fighting each other. That is the problem with the CEWPA conflict. It is limited and pointless, conducted between primarily capsuleer forces over relatively unimportant areas of space. The CEWPA rules need to be put aside so that our full military can be brought into the conflict.

To what end? We would still be fighting over the same systems, we would just have more people doing it. Not to mention the increase in taxes to fund the involvement of the military's assets. It would remain a never ending war, it would just get a lot more messy and expensive.


Why would we continue fighting over those systems once the CEWPA restrictions are removed? Our navies would be able to move against homeworld systems instead.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#136 - 2014-01-22 21:33:34 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other.


Our militiaries are not tied up fighting each other. That is the problem with the CEWPA conflict. It is limited and pointless, conducted between primarily capsuleer forces over relatively unimportant areas of space. The CEWPA rules need to be put aside so that our full military can be brought into the conflict.

To what end? We would still be fighting over the same systems, we would just have more people doing it. Not to mention the increase in taxes to fund the involvement of the military's assets. It would remain a never ending war, it would just get a lot more messy and expensive.


Why would we continue fighting over those systems once the CEWPA restrictions are removed? Our navies would be able to move against homeworld systems instead.

And would it stop there? No, the fighting would continue untill only one faction remained, then it would turn on itself. We would end up fighting in those useless systems anyway.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#137 - 2014-01-22 22:08:24 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Lady Katherine Devonshire wrote:
I do hope that the State pays attention past lessons of Heth and the current lessons of Shakor as a warning to the price of eternal conflict, or the means in which politicians so often use flag waving militarism simply as a means of personal gain at the expense of their own people.


The only lesson I find to be learned is the necessity of ensuring no single man is able to overstep the mandates on their power over the society they govern. The failure of Tibus Heth was not in the instigation or prosecution of armed conflict in the national interest, but rather the belief he alone had the authority to dictate terms to the CEP.

I'm of two minds on this. I definitely agree that the State's biggest failing under Heth was being bullied into following him as a dictator rather than a leader, but I can't wholly agree to the conflict part. Given that our homeland has long been held by a foreign power and the men and women on that planet who still identified as Caldari were being marginalized and mistreated, I can't say that retaking Caldari Prime was a bad thing, but I cannot agree with reciprocating those very same acts back onto the Gallente population of Caldari Prime or the excesses that came from much of the actions being taken in the name of racism. Defense of the State does not equate to kill the Gallente; the death is an unfortunate side effect of the fact we are often in conflict rather than something that should be pursued as a goal, so as much as I can support some actions that were taken, I can't support all of the actions nor can I support the motivations.

I also hold CONCORD responsible in major part for many of the developments in sustaining the conflict. CONCORD's purpose is ostensibly to maintain the peace between the empires yet they legitimized the wars between the empires when they ratified the CEWPA and formed the militias to allow capsuleers to join those wars.
True peacekeepers don't escalate the conflict.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2014-01-22 22:09:10 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
No, actually I agree, but nullsec alliances are, for the present, out of our reach. One reason such injustices can occur is because our militaries are tied up fighting each other.


Our militiaries are not tied up fighting each other. That is the problem with the CEWPA conflict. It is limited and pointless, conducted between primarily capsuleer forces over relatively unimportant areas of space. The CEWPA rules need to be put aside so that our full military can be brought into the conflict.

To what end? We would still be fighting over the same systems, we would just have more people doing it. Not to mention the increase in taxes to fund the involvement of the military's assets. It would remain a never ending war, it would just get a lot more messy and expensive.


Why would we continue fighting over those systems once the CEWPA restrictions are removed? Our navies would be able to move against homeworld systems instead.

And would it stop there? No, the fighting would continue untill only one faction remained, then it would turn on itself. We would end up fighting in those useless systems anyway.


Why not split the difference? Divide the systems up until you are half-and-half, then call a peace treaty and let it be over with.

It might not satisfy everyone, but it would end the warfare. Surely, people like Veikitamo could be better used elsewhere. She's completely wasted as an asset fighting a war that cannot by won by the very terms of the legal framework of the conflict.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#139 - 2014-01-22 22:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Why would we continue fighting over those systems once the CEWPA restrictions are removed? Our navies would be able to move against homeworld systems instead.

And would it stop there? No, the fighting would continue untill only one faction remained, then it would turn on itself. We would end up fighting in those useless systems anyway.


Why not split the difference? Divide the systems up until you are half-and-half, then call a peace treaty and let it be over with.

It might not satisfy everyone, but it would end the warfare.


Warfare is not a bad thing. We shouldn't be seeking peace just to end conflict, because any peace that comes before all mankind has been Reclaimed for God is hollow and will not last. As evidenced by how easily the previous settlements collapsed 5 years ago.

The war needs a definitive victory, not another pause.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2014-01-22 22:41:56 UTC
I have neither the desire to invade the Republic and Federation, nor the confidence that we would win a war with offensive goals, given the current balance of power.

More likely we would simply inflict enough damage to collapse all four regimes and cause an eternity of civil war and strife that would make the Caldari/Gallente war look like a lovers quarrel. I especially do not want super capitals and Titans in orbit around inhabited, civilised, worlds. We've seen the damage that a single Titan breakup in low orbit can cause - can you imagine a fleet of hundreds exploding and de-orbiting? I can. Never again.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.