EVE General Discussion

92 pages later and people are still trying to argue with Jenn and Goonies more stubborn than a tea party freshman screaming down an unemployed college student for being a 'leech' because he can't find a job.

Do youself a favor highsec bros; act don't talk. Don't argue with these people. Play your way and ignore them simple as that.

Kimmi is far, far more patient and polite than I am.

He is a leech if he can't find a job (meaning, he won't take the work available but wants a job that makes a bunch of money).



it's ok if they ignore us, and the truth of the matter. The truth doesn't care if you pay attention to it, it's still the truth.

The truth is that the risk/effort/reward balance of Combat PVE (my part of this discussion) is way off everywhere except wormholes and a side effect of this imblance is null players having high sec (or WH or lately, Faction Warfare) isk alts. This is a not so good situation for the game because prior to incursions if a player wanted a certain lvl of isk they had to accept a certain level of risk, not people can fill their wallets in safety.

CCP needs to take a total "from the bottom up" look at risk/reward and restore a reasonable balance that would put an end to the need for high sec isking alts.

I stopped screaming and started shooting instead.

Exactly just like nullseccers can earn +220m an hour easily.

Your link to the level 3 investigation shows the utilization of an extremely overpowered vessel for that mission range. That vessel has seen a pretty big nerf as a result of the omni nerfs, the stacking rig nerf, and the sentry regen nerfs. Your sentries can't hit as well or as far and they can't tank aggro anywhere near as well as before. The lack of hull based tracking bonus decreases effectiveness quite a lot. Even if he ran all +tracking scripts he'd still be missing out. So that post is almost completely irrelevant right now.

Having said that level 3s have a fraction of the damage required to clear that level 4s have. Lower numbers and less damage required makes it many times easier to clear a level 3 site in short order.

Your reading comprehension needs work. I said that level 3s are nowhere near the level of dps and numbers as level 4s. So saying "well he made 50m in level 3s and since level 4s pay over 2x as much means you clearly make 90m at least in 4s" is just silly.

The ishtar was extremely overpowered for it's size and for level 3s due to it's drone bay. You're talking +800 dps in a cruiser sized hull with cruiser speed of targeting warping and slow boating. I don't think the other HACs can keep up with that which is why he chose it. Now post nerfs the ishtar certainly is more in line with the other hacs.

Lets be honest the slowest part of level 3s is the actual targeting itself. There's just no equivalent way to run level 4s in such an overpowered manner without involving another client.

When I have to run level 3s on an alt I run maximum dps with no real regard for tank as it's not a problem in 3s.

Considering what CCP SoniClover said was contradicted by CCP's own economist (in the CSM summer summit minutes) I can pretty confidently say he doesn't understand what he's talking about.

I did another 4 hour sample. I am compiling the data now.

La Nariz - thank you for your insight on proper testing method. Coming from an experimental science background makes your advice very valuable and I appreciate any further recommendations you may have.

Jenn - Yes I did run a SL. It's a habit and in this last bout I did leave another one to do after my 4 hour session. On the upside, the one I did in the first bout did get my Caldari rep from 6.85 to 7.15. I have to say though that my intent is not to show any bias here. I have tried to be as transparent as I can with my skills, my ship and fitting, and my methods. It is important that any mistakes I make that reduce my efficiency are brought to light so I can avoid them and be more efficient. Understand that there is an assumption or a claim being made by my friends in High Sec - that the levels of income that are being purported from Null Sec residents are inflated and exaggerated. From a standpoint of scientific method, I am trying to prove that assumption or claim wrong. Admittedly, I am having difficulty doing that but it is undoubtedly due to the fact that this is not the normal way that I run missions. I am not accustomed to running missions to maximize ISK/hr. So I am a little out of my comfort zone. If, however, you or for that matter anyone feels that my testing lacks any kind of transparency I would ask kindly that you inform me of that.

To everyone else, seriously - 90+ pages of back and forth is ridiculous. Everyone keeps posting thinking that they are somehow going to convince someone on the other side to "see things their way" just by making snide comments and insulting each other is mildly ********. If you are in High Sec and are able to run L4 missions for SOE please do so for 4 hours or whatever and record your data. I would encourage you to use the information La Nariz posted as a reference.

I will post the new data as soon as I have it all compiled and organized. It will not meet with the recommendations of La Nariz but it is what it is. Going forward I will try to meet those benchmarks.

Thanks! o/

I'm looking at it now.

You're overstating level 4 mission rewards while understating level 3 rewards. Your own link shows that the average mission is over 1400 Lp for level 3s with some reaching 3000. Meanwhile level 4s run about 5000ish with some missions reaching up to 8500 with security connections IV and in a .5 system. I was getting from 3300 to 8300 lp missions with most between. Of course the 8300 LP missions were not blitzable..

What surprised me in the link is he didn't have to reject whole batches of missions set in lowsec.




That is outdated information that has little relevance to today.

You can't overpower level 4s like he was overpowering level 3s and you certainly can't do it in a ship that is as fast as a HAC (warp/alignment/movement/etc). As you stated most of the time is wasted in warping and BSes warp slowly.