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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1801 - 2014-02-01 15:58:33 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


We have years of numbers behind us. We have seen the slow progress of null income lowering while high sec income has grown. When even the bots abandon null you know there is a problem. Any attempt by yourself will of course be biased because you are anti any nerf to highsec. Unlike you we do care about overall balance of this game. We have demanded nerfs even though they would massivly hurt us.

I don't think you do have the numbers. You say you do. But after 90 pages there is nothing to show for other than saying that I don't have the numbers. And the "we" part is actually rather small, as far as I can tell. Yes it is true that you, Jenn, Kaarous, La Nariz, Tippia, et al have been calling for nerfs to hi sec for quite some time now. But I'm not so sure that constitutes a large "we".

The problem with you argument is that you throw numbers such as "120/hr" or "180mil/hr", eye browses are raised, questions are asked, but no data is ever produced. Instead we're left to testing the validity of these numbers. And if these numbers aren't produced, then the data is wrong or the tester is incompetent or biased. In essence, we're left with claims that become un-provable. And we are forced to accept this as data itself. This isn't how it's supposed to be.

Let's forget that you said 180mil/hr is easily achievable with SEO. Let's instead work with 100 - 120 mil. You say that's the norm. Can you show right here right now the data supporting that 100 - 120 is indeed the norm? Can you show your missioning numbers? No more bullshit. No more "we have the numbers". Do you ACTUALLY HAVE the numbers to prove the claim that the norm is 100 - 120 million per hour?



I'll bug tippia about getting hold of a thread by someone who did a bigger test on these missions. I cannot for tbe life of me find it.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1802 - 2014-02-01 15:59:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

Drone sites in nullsec will drop SoE ship tokens in the next patch.

Considering the vast majority of SoE LP is produced in highsec, its a net buff for nullsec and a net nerf for highsec.

CCP wants these ships to be much cheaper within the market.


Dronelands, not all of null. That area of space has been the most terrible lart of null for years. I also doubt prices will drop by much,PL are far too smart to allow that to happen.


No, drone sites -- most of which spawn in the dronelands. But they still randomly spawn anywhere in null.

And even if it was "only" the dronelands, that's still a buff to nullsec.

You might as well say that highsec SoE missions aren't a "highsec boost" because you can only run them in "certain parts of highsec"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1803 - 2014-02-01 16:01:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except that the LP for the pirate ships can't really be earned in highsec. Still a net gain for highsec with the Sisters of Eve, compared to a few months ago.


What the **** are you talking about dude?

Are you mentally deficient?

Right now, you can only get SoE ships by running highsec missions or nullsec missions.

After the patch, you can get them by either of those two ways OR a random nullsec drop.

Meaning, nullsec is having new stuff added to it's drop pool. Meaning, it's a buff.

Do you get it? Or are you just a troll?



You get pirate ships by either running missions in null for the pirate corps, or by getting BPOs to drop.

You can't get Sansha LP in highsec, for example.

The Sisters of Eve is the only one that can get LP in highsec. It's the only one you don't have to risk anything to get. So it's still head and shoulders above the accessibility of the other pirate factions.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1804 - 2014-02-01 16:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except that the LP for the pirate ships can't really be earned in highsec. Still a net gain for highsec with the Sisters of Eve, compared to a few months ago.


What the **** are you talking about dude?

Are you mentally deficient?

Right now, you can only get SoE ships by running highsec missions or nullsec missions.

After the patch, you can get them by either of those two ways OR a random nullsec drop.

Meaning, nullsec is having new stuff added to it's drop pool. Meaning, it's a buff.

Do you get it? Or are you just a troll?



You get pirate ships by either running missions in null for the pirate corps, or by getting BPOs to drop.

You can't get Sansha LP in highsec, for example.

The Sisters of Eve is the only one that can get LP in highsec. It's the only one you don't have to risk anything to get. So it's still head and shoulders above the accessibility of the other pirate factions.


Dude.

It's new loot added to the drop pool of null.

That is, by definition, a buff.

This really just proves to me that even if null is boosted, you will still whine and complain.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1805 - 2014-02-01 16:04:09 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

Drone sites in nullsec will drop SoE ship tokens in the next patch.

Considering the vast majority of SoE LP is produced in highsec, its a net buff for nullsec and a net nerf for highsec.

CCP wants these ships to be much cheaper within the market.


Dronelands, not all of null. That area of space has been the most terrible lart of null for years. I also doubt prices will drop by much,PL are far too smart to allow that to happen.


No, drone sites -- most of which spawn in the dronelands. But they still randomly spawn anywhere in null.

And even if it was "only" the dronelands, that's still a buff to nullsec.

You might as well say that highsec SoE missions aren't a "highsec boost" because you can only run them in "certain parts of highsec"


Everyone has access to high sec missions. Only PL and its renters have access to the dronelands.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1806 - 2014-02-01 16:05:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

Dude.

It's new loot added to the drop pool of null.

That is, by definition, a buff.

This really just proves to me that even if null is boosted, you will still whine and complain.


Only a highseccer would call parity and game balance a buff to nullsec.

Besides that, it's a buff to Dronelands, which previous was one of the most worthless expanses of space in the entire game. It's about time the freaking Dronelands got a buff after being reduced to rubble earlier.

Once again, in case the idea isn't rattling around in your little brain yet.

The sum total, including this new change, is still a net buff to highsec when the method of obtaining the rest of the pirate ships is taken into account.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1807 - 2014-02-01 16:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
Everyone has access to high sec missions.


Not true. The faction where the highsec missions are could hate me - thus offering me no missions.

baltec1 wrote:
Only PL and its renters have access to the dronelands.


This is a bizarre statement, apparently you didn't read the post that you just quoted.

Any drone site can potentially spawn the nexus chips - and they can spawn mostly anywhere, not just the dronelands. The dronelands just happen to spawn drone sites exclusively.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Only a highseccer would call parity and game balance a buff to nullsec.


You are mentally deficient. Adding new, valuable loot to the loot table of null is a buff. There's no other way of putting it.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1808 - 2014-02-01 16:09:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


We have years of numbers behind us. We have seen the slow progress of null income lowering while high sec income has grown. When even the bots abandon null you know there is a problem. Any attempt by yourself will of course be biased because you are anti any nerf to highsec. Unlike you we do care about overall balance of this game. We have demanded nerfs even though they would massivly hurt us.

I don't think you do have the numbers. You say you do. But after 90 pages there is nothing to show for other than saying that I don't have the numbers. And the "we" part is actually rather small, as far as I can tell. Yes it is true that you, Jenn, Kaarous, La Nariz, Tippia, et al have been calling for nerfs to hi sec for quite some time now. But I'm not so sure that constitutes a large "we".

The problem with you argument is that you throw numbers such as "120/hr" or "180mil/hr", eye browses are raised, questions are asked, but no data is ever produced. Instead we're left to testing the validity of these numbers. And if these numbers aren't produced, then the data is wrong or the tester is incompetent or biased. In essence, we're left with claims that become un-provable. And we are forced to accept this as data itself. This isn't how it's supposed to be.

Let's forget that you said 180mil/hr is easily achievable with SEO. Let's instead work with 100 - 120 mil. You say that's the norm. Can you show right here right now the data supporting that 100 - 120 is indeed the norm? Can you show your missioning numbers? No more bullshit. No more "we have the numbers". Do you ACTUALLY HAVE the numbers to prove the claim that the norm is 100 - 120 million per hour?



I'll bug tippia about getting hold of a thread by someone who did a bigger test on these missions. I cannot for tbe life of me find it.

Awesome and thank you!

Remember to ask him to include the data showing this is the norm in hi sec as well. Once we know the what, where, and how's we can all move forward.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1809 - 2014-02-01 16:09:56 UTC
Mission Rewards and Time Bonus Rewards per mission


The Assault -1,430,000.00 - 1,130,000.00
Gone Berserk - 774,000.00 - 988,000.00
The Wildcat Strike - 704,000.00 - 523,000.00
The Anomaly 1/3 - 342,000.00 - 392,000.00
The Anomaly 2/3 - 166,000.00 - 154,000.00
The Anomaly 3/3 - 685,000.00 - 665,000.00
Attack of the Drones - 832,000.00 - 877,000.00
Vengeance - 1,050,000.00 - 1,270,000.00
Unauthorized Military Presence - 605,000.00 - 520,000.00
Under Suspicion - 1,920,000.00 - 2,150,000.00
Gone Berserk - 950,000.00 - 856,000.00
Attack of the Drones - 858,000.00 - 755,000.00
Infiltrated Outposts - 969,000.00 - 1,210,000.00
Intercept the Saboteurs - 653,000.00 - 516,000.00

Sorry about the spacing :(

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1810 - 2014-02-01 16:18:12 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
You are mentally deficient.


And you've been more aggregiously butthurt ever since the defeat of N3/PL at BR-5.

Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1811 - 2014-02-01 16:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?


Tell me more about how adding two positive numbers together results in a smaller number.

More loot = NERF!!! Roll

If you're going to claim that more loot is not a buff, then prepare to be called names and be laughed at. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1812 - 2014-02-01 16:25:03 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?


Tell me more about how adding two positive numbers together results in a smaller number.

More loot = NERF!!! Roll

If you're going to claim that more loot is not a buff, then prepare to be called names and be laughed at. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.


Apparently it equals a nerf to highsec, by your absurd justifications.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1813 - 2014-02-01 16:25:31 UTC
Do I need to separate you two?

Try to keep it constructive. This thread has already been off the rails enough for crying out loud.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1814 - 2014-02-01 16:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?


Tell me more about how adding two positive numbers together results in a smaller number.

More loot = NERF!!! Roll

If you're going to claim that more loot is not a buff, then prepare to be called names and be laughed at. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.


Apparently it equals a nerf to highsec, by your absurd justifications.



Balance is a scale. If you tip one side it affects both.

Funny how that works.

Is this your first video game?

Edit: Also, can you please explain how a buff in the form of adding loot to the loot tables is "absurd?"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1815 - 2014-02-01 16:35:18 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Or would you actually care to discuss the topic?


Tell me more about how adding two positive numbers together results in a smaller number.

More loot = NERF!!! Roll

If you're going to claim that more loot is not a buff, then prepare to be called names and be laughed at. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.


Apparently it equals a nerf to highsec, by your absurd justifications.



Balance is a scale. If you tip one side it affects both.

Funny how that works.

Is this your first video game?

Edit: Also, can you please explain how a buff in the form of adding loot to the loot tables is "absurd?"


They tipped too hard by making the SOE ships available without blueprints like the rest of the pirate faction ships.

Now they have blueprints just like the rest. But unlike the rest, they can be obtained entirely in highsec. Which means that their existence is still a net buff to highsec.

And that's the end of it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1816 - 2014-02-01 16:38:18 UTC
How wonderful the ISDs or the forum ate my post about methods after I left to go do ~things~.

Kimmi that is a good start but the sample is way too small. We can make some inferences from it but, its not as useful as it could be.

Ideally you'd do something along these lines:

-Run missions for X amount of time per day,

-Run the missions at the same time per day,

-Do it for Y amount of days, Y should be >3.

-Pick the highest LP/isk corporation,

-Post a spoilered EFT text block of the skills and fit you're using,

-Record time to complete missions and travel time separately,

-Record isk reward, bounty reward, and LP reward separately,

-Do four different runs, blitzing and salvaging, full clear and salvaging, blitzing without salvaging, and full clear without salvaging.

This looks like a lot of work and it is but, good science takes good effort. Oh yeah finally put all this into a spreadsheet and post it for us.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1817 - 2014-02-01 16:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They tipped too hard by making the SOE ships available without blueprints like the rest of the pirate faction ships.

Now they have blueprints just like the rest. But unlike the rest, they can be obtained entirely in highsec. Which means that their existence is still a net buff to highsec.


What the hell are you talking about?

Before: You can't find these ships in nullsec.

After: They drop in nullsec from drone rats.

How is this a nerf to nullsec?

This is why you are getting called names.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1818 - 2014-02-01 16:41:07 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They tipped too hard by making the SOE ships available without blueprints like the rest of the pirate faction ships.

Now they have blueprints just like the rest. But unlike the rest, they can be obtained entirely in highsec. Which means that their existence is still a net buff to highsec.


What the hell are you talking about?

Before: You can't find these ships in nullsec.

After: They drop in nullsec from drone rats.

How is this a nerf to nullsec?

This is why you are getting called names.


You're hilarious.

Sisters LP could be obtained in nullsec too. All this does is make Drone Regions less utterly worthless.

Which according to you, is a bad thing... why?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1819 - 2014-02-01 16:44:33 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:

Dear La Nariz, every time you use the word, 'pubbie' it makes me wonder if you are actually old enough (13) to play Eve Online.

Whinge all you want about how unfair CCP is to you, but do it without using your kiddie school-yard slang, please.

I know that a few nul-sec folk are unhappy about the (insert fantasy figure here) isk folk in hi-sec earn, buy many of us play for fun not isk/hour and some of us use the isk we make to lose ships in lo and null-sec.

If I wanted to spend my time with a self selected 'elite' who think that they alone play the real Eve, then I would make a permanent move to null.

I don't think so Smile


If you want to be spoken to as an intelligent human being you should stop being a highsec pubbie and drop the grr goon. There are plenty of others who have done that whom I don't reference as pubbies. If we had a meaningful quantifier for fun I'd agree with you that it has a place in the formula for determining reward but, we don't hence isk/hr is the best quantifiable metric we have for reward.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Josef Djugashvilis
#1820 - 2014-02-01 16:57:49 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
How wonderful the ISDs or the forum ate my post about methods after I left to go do ~things~.

Kimmi that is a good start but the sample is way too small. We can make some inferences from it but, its not as useful as it could be.

Ideally you'd do something along these lines:

-Run missions for X amount of time per day,

-Run the missions at the same time per day,

-Do it for Y amount of days, Y should be >3.

-Pick the highest LP/isk corporation,

-Post a spoilered EFT text block of the skills and fit you're using,

-Record time to complete missions and travel time separately,

-Record isk reward, bounty reward, and LP reward separately,

-Do four different runs, blitzing and salvaging, full clear and salvaging, blitzing without salvaging, and full clear without salvaging.



This looks like a lot of work and it is but, good science takes good effort. Oh yeah finally put all this into a spreadsheet and post it for us.


Kimmi, no matter how good your skills, no matter how quickly and efficiently you run missions in hi-sec, no matter what ship and fittings you use, some null-sec folk will still whine that you are using the wrong ship with the wrong fittings, that you are not running missions efficiently and that your sample is not large enough.

Null-sec self pitying whiners will whine no matter what, as indeed will some hi-sec folk Smile

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