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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1561 - 2014-01-29 03:08:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To restate.

doesn't show what the average pilot can expect for personal income
doesn't show distribution of income among nullsec players
doesn't address the number of pilots null can sustain
doesn't address the issue of truesec
doesn't address newbie income in nullsec
doesn't address manufacturing/industry issues

doesn't indicate if nullsec's worth the time doing anoms or why anyone's doing them

although an argument is only true if the premises are true that doesn't mean you actually flip out and demand devblogs for everything. i think the numbers people say they get for anoms are reasonably close and that's all i need. besides that, the issues of truesec, capacity, industry and newbie income are undeniable

Xen Solarus wrote:
Those outside "say" that they want people to migrate from highsec to other areas, as it should be.

noone wants to make anyone go anywhere stop saying that
ashley Eoner
#1562 - 2014-01-29 03:23:54 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To restate.

doesn't show what the average pilot can expect for personal income
doesn't show distribution of income among nullsec players
doesn't address the number of pilots null can sustain
doesn't address the issue of truesec
doesn't address newbie income in nullsec
doesn't address manufacturing/industry issues

doesn't indicate if nullsec's worth the time doing anoms or why anyone's doing them

although an argument is only true if the premises are true that doesn't mean you actually flip out and demand devblogs for everything. i think the numbers people say they get for anoms are reasonably close and that's all i need. besides that, the issues of truesec, capacity, industry and newbie income are undeniable

Xen Solarus wrote:
Those outside "say" that they want people to migrate from highsec to other areas, as it should be.

noone wants to make anyone go anywhere stop saying that

Doesn't show anything at all...
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1563 - 2014-01-29 03:24:45 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To restate.

doesn't show what the average pilot can expect for personal income
doesn't show distribution of income among nullsec players
doesn't address the number of pilots null can sustain
doesn't address the issue of truesec
doesn't address newbie income in nullsec
doesn't address manufacturing/industry issues

doesn't indicate if nullsec's worth the time doing anoms or why anyone's doing them

although an argument is only true if the premises are true that doesn't mean you actually flip out and demand devblogs for everything. i think the numbers people say they get for anoms are reasonably close and that's all i need. besides that, the issues of truesec, capacity, industry and newbie income are undeniable

Xen Solarus wrote:
Those outside "say" that they want people to migrate from highsec to other areas, as it should be.

noone wants to make anyone go anywhere stop saying that

Actually, it has already been stated a few times in this very thread. I'm too lazy to look it up (late here), but if you insist, I'll link up the posts for ya.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1564 - 2014-01-29 03:37:12 UTC
if someone wants to force someone else out of an area, they're wrong

if they want to make an area worth living in they're right
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#1565 - 2014-01-29 03:50:03 UTC
I cant talk about mission isk, or exploration in highsec. And i dont have WH, low or null experience but what i can talk about is incursion isk and its effective, sustained rates.

First off, assuming a dream fleet with a pro fc operating alone in a hq system with endless tcrc spawns and short warp they could manage 7 sites in the hour. Thats roughly 217m isk/hour not counting lp.

Unfortunately such a dream fleet rarely exists, operating alone in a hq system, with endless tcrc spawns. The closest to such a fleet only operates on a limited timeframe, and when they do, is possibly the busiest time for all incursion communities with max numbers of pilots and fleets running. The result can be as many as 5 fleets in a hq system, crushing site rates down to like 2 maybe 3 per hour - before contests.

contesting takes the isk from 1 fleet and essentialy gives it to the winning fleet (not doubling just taking the losers isk payout to 0). This lately has also lead to entire incursions being closed sealing shut that isk source utterly, for everyone.

Theres 1 final point for incursions, that even i there was the maximum 217m isk/hour rate being achieved, that would be for just 40 ppl, not the entire combined incursion community. If you are not in a fleet your isk/hour is 0. I highly highly highly doubt that a 40man dream fleet with perfect spawns operating alone would even come close to making a dent on the overall highsec (or anysec comparitevely) income. Whats 40 ppl compared to 499,960?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1566 - 2014-01-29 04:08:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:


So basically you have no proof to refute the well reasoned arguments presented to you so now you default to spamming walls of text that can be summed up as "lol no." Good to know, you've got nothing.

I have more proof than you do as to isk/hr arguments, since I proved that incursions were not sustainable at the claimed levels of income. The rest of it, you have just been throwing wild claims with no backing.

I however, have proved that Null is making vastly more per capita than high is. Exactly how they do this is still open for discussion obviously, but there obviously is not a shortage of isk in Null as a result.

You are the one throwing mud here, I provided actual maths backed by CCP figures. You have provided insults & dismissals just because you don't like what the result was.


I would be happy to explain this and I usually do for other people but I have literally spelled out what the problems are to you several times in this thread as well as others. I've refuted everything you posted and other posters have also shown you why your assumptions are wrong as well as picked up on your intellectual dishonesty of presenting what was said on the German forums as something it is not.

I'm not going to explain any of this again to you because I have already done so >6 times at this point. Either search my posts and read them again or come back with a new point no one has addressed yet.

Its literally a cycle "Posts argument -> gets a painstaking explanation of why they are wrong -> completely ignores refutation and moves goal posts -> gets called on doing that -> goes 'lol no' -> Posts argument ->..."

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1567 - 2014-01-29 04:16:30 UTC
La Nariz, all you have tried to say is 'You are wrong because I say so'.
Or 'You are wrong because another goon said so'.

At no point have you presented any evidence which is backed by CCP figures, you have occasionally spouted off a nonsense figure from 'personal experience' which has come with no proof as to how that figure was obtained or how sustainable that figure is or how normal it is.

I'm quite open to see actual maths from CCP figures showing that Null actually doesn't earn more than high, but quite frankly, I don't believe I ever will because all the actual maths so far says the exact opposite.

Now on the questions Benny raised.
Quote:

Paraphrasing...
Newbies, Truesec, number who can live in null, Industry

Those are all valid issues and at no point have I ever said that null shouldn't have those issues looked at, though industry is in a much better state than most claim since they are using the old pre outpost buff figures, not the new figures. But even then it still needs some work.

I'm just against the 'Nerf High Sec because we fail at making use of null sec income' crowd.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1568 - 2014-01-29 04:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz, all you have tried to say is 'You are wrong because I say so'.
Or 'You are wrong because another goon said so'.

At no point have you presented any evidence which is backed by CCP figures, you have occasionally spouted off a nonsense figure from 'personal experience' which has come with no proof as to how that figure was obtained or how sustainable that figure is or how normal it is.

I'm quite open to see actual maths from CCP figures showing that Null actually doesn't earn more than high, but quite frankly, I don't believe I ever will because all the actual maths so far says the exact opposite.

Now on the questions Benny raised.
Quote:

Paraphrasing...
Newbies, Truesec, number who can live in null, Industry

Those are all valid issues and at no point have I ever said that null shouldn't have those issues looked at, though industry is in a much better state than most claim since they are using the old pre outpost buff figures, not the new figures. But even then it still needs some work.

I'm just against the 'Nerf High Sec because we fail at making use of null sec income' crowd.


Try rereading my posts, Tippia's posts, Baltec1's posts, Jenn's posts, etc. We've all told you why you are wrong and provided supporting evidence. Are we going to give you a double-blind peer reviewed study as to why you are wrong? Hell no and don't ask for one unless you're giving me the cash to do one.

E: You're even quoting a guy telling you, you are wrong and providing damn good reasoning.

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1569 - 2014-01-29 04:24:56 UTC
yeah ok

reckon it's silly to be asking for devblogs though if 'ratting anoms in an ishtar' isk per tick is pretty much common knowledge among those who do it since it's min-maxed

even if, uh, i can't remember what the number is Straight

(doubting there's much wrong with sigs except perhaps capacity)
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1570 - 2014-01-29 04:35:09 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
yeah ok

reckon it's silly to be asking for devblogs though if 'ratting anoms in an ishtar' isk per tick is pretty much common knowledge among those who do it since it's min-maxed

even if, uh, i can't remember what the number is Straight

(doubting there's much wrong with sigs except perhaps capacity)


Consensus is 20m/tick for ishtar and 15-18m/tick for VNI. This of course is using forsaken hubs and pretty much hands free.

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1571 - 2014-01-30 01:25:04 UTC
fishblades wrote:
Otuk Andven wrote:
Actually I've just hit a stroke of luck

Killed a rare 9m rat and got 50m worth of loot

So perhaps ratting from belts isn't going to be so hard, going for the anomalies might had been too quick


Sheesh you have a long way to go. What kind of T3 do you have?


The best way I've found for myself to make money in 0.0 is to run combat signatures. If I am able to find enough sites to run in goonspace then you should be able to. When I resubbed I had 400mil which i turned into 22bil in like 2 months just running about 7-10 sites a week. For example a pith penal complex takes about 20-30 minutes to run, or less if you dual box it, and even if the overseer just drops effects thats still 80mil for 30 minutes worth of time. Run 7 of those in a week and you made half a bil. Some days you can scan for a couple hours and not find anything but on those days I just log and try again tomorrow. Even with just effects you are making decent money but huge payoffs are always possible depending on the plex. Pith Penals can drop upwards of 500-600mil and the best plex in Deklein, the guristas troop staging point drops the medium shield booster thats worth like 700mil by itself. So figure 7-10 plex in a week with the low end of maybe 2 paying off big and the isk builds up really fast. I do have one advantage being in Goonswarm. Our Eve Wiki lists all the plex so you can read about what you are warping into before you commit a ship to something. I'm sure you can find public resources though, they just wont be as good. I'm still working up the nerve to try and run The Maze in dual tengus, but that site scares me, it has the possibility of dropping over a bil though.

In the 4 months since I returned I bought 2 faction fit tengus worth around 1.6 bil each, a Revelation, 10 timecards, I gave away around 4bil isk for Christmas and I still have 10bil in my wallet.

Also I don't recommend buying your stuff in 0.0. Buy all your stuff in jita and hopefully someone in your corp runs a freighter service or find someone with a carrier who can jump your stuff back. Train into a carrier if you haven't, it will make your life so much easier.




Source

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1572 - 2014-01-30 01:36:32 UTC
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1573 - 2014-01-30 02:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Benny Ohu wrote:
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention

Nonesense. Apart from 10/10's all sigs can be run in a low skilled battleships. I could probably run 6-8 of all combat sigs in a thorax with t1 rails.

Sigs are dependable. AFAIK all sigs respawn instantly and are therefore infinite in supply. If there are a total of 10,000 sigs, then at any one time there remain 10,000 sigs. You just have to find them.

As for the OP,

If CCP really nerfed highsec I'm sure another soon to be released space game would take the subs that quit and EVE would experience a very sudden death if enough bears left.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1574 - 2014-01-30 02:21:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention

Nonesense. Apart from 10/10's all sigs can be run in a low skilled battleships. I could probably run 6-8 of all combat sigs in a thorax with t1 rails.

Sigs are dependable. AFAIK all sigs respawn instantly and are therefore infinite in supply. If there are a total of 10,000 sigs, then at any one time there remain 10,000 sigs. You just have to find them.

As for the OP,

If CCP really nerfed highsec I'm sure another soon to be released space game would take the subs that quit and EVE would experience a very sudden death if enough bears left.


Sigs will support at most 100 people per region and they would be stepping on each others toes.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1575 - 2014-01-30 02:22:33 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention


Sorry, I'm arriving late to this rant. Can you describe for me any activity in hi sec which meets your criteria? To whit:

  1. Must be anomalies
  2. Must be for newbies
  3. Must be dependable
  4. Must be unlimited
  5. Must be manufacturing or mining (i.e.: must be mining, since you don't do manufacturing in anomalies)
  6. Must be the only activity available


Nothing in hi sec meets those demands, so why restrict null sec to those demands?

For the record, new players are gifted an exploration ship, probe launcher, probes and training as part of the tutorial missions. Thus I dispute your implicit assertion that signatures are not for newbies. Every character with a few hours of training can probe down most sites. They will need better quality modules and implants to get 100% warp able hits on the more interesting sites in null sec, but that's an issue of ISK rather than skill or SP.

Also for the record, mining in hi sec anomalies is not dependable, it is very limited, and is far from the only activity available in hi sec, even to people specialising in mining.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1576 - 2014-01-30 02:23:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention

Nonesense. Apart from 10/10's all sigs can be run in a low skilled battleships. I could probably run 6-8 of all combat sigs in a thorax with t1 rails.

Sigs are dependable. AFAIK all sigs respawn instantly and are therefore infinite in supply. If there are a total of 10,000 sigs, then at any one time there remain 10,000 sigs. You just have to find them.

As for the OP,

If CCP really nerfed highsec I'm sure another soon to be released space game would take the subs that quit and EVE would experience a very sudden death if enough bears left.


Sigs will support at most 100 people per region and they would be stepping on each others toes.

Hardly the games fault you don't fight for your regions, but instead share and rent them out. EvE is a game about taking, not sharing. You're looking for Hello Kitty Online.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1577 - 2014-01-30 02:26:35 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
sigs are not anoms, sigs are not for newbies, sigs are not dependable, sigs are limited, sigs are not manufacturing or mining, sigs are not the only activity available and i don't think anyone is talking about sigs as an issue that needs attention


Sorry, I'm arriving late to this rant. Can you describe for me any activity in hi sec which meets your criteria? To whit:

  1. Must be anomalies
  2. Must be for newbies
  3. Must be dependable
  4. Must be unlimited
  5. Must be manufacturing or mining (i.e.: must be mining, since you don't do manufacturing in anomalies)
  6. Must be the only activity available


Nothing in hi sec meets those demands, so why restrict null sec to those demands?

For the record, new players are gifted an exploration ship, probe launcher, probes and training as part of the tutorial missions. Thus I dispute your implicit assertion that signatures are not for newbies. Every character with a few hours of training can probe down most sites. They will need better quality modules and implants to get 100% warp able hits on the more interesting sites in null sec, but that's an issue of ISK rather than skill or SP.

Also for the record, mining in hi sec anomalies is not dependable, it is very limited, and is far from the only activity available in hi sec, even to people specialising in mining.


what the hell are you on about
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1578 - 2014-01-30 02:28:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sigs are dependable. AFAIK all sigs respawn instantly and are therefore infinite in supply.

Hardly the games fault you don't fight for your regions, but instead share and rent them out. EvE is a game about taking, not sharing. You're looking for Hello Kitty Online.

"i don't understand the issue of capacity nor respawn mechanics please ignore me"
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1579 - 2014-01-30 02:30:31 UTC
i post saying 'we're not talking about sigs' and suddenly bads are talking about sigs

sigs have nothing to do with highsec and are off topic
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1580 - 2014-01-30 02:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Hardly the games fault you don't fight for your regions, but instead share and rent them out. EvE is a game about taking, not sharing. You're looking for Hello Kitty Online.


Yeah we can ignore you because you're so overloaded with ~grr goons~ you ignore any data or facts we show you.

E:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4159522#post4159522

:smug:

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