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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1481 - 2014-01-27 18:56:28 UTC
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?


Considering you are a bot-aspirant miner I think we can safely ignore anything you say.

Gotta afk mine all the things. Speaking of afk, don't you have a node to crash so you can ***** about it?


Nope I hope the nodes stay active and the battle finishes either way. All the big nodes in highsec should be on reserve for nullsec battles. Enjoy mission running in 10% TiDi.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1482 - 2014-01-27 19:02:27 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?


Considering you are a bot-aspirant miner I think we can safely ignore anything you say.

Gotta afk mine all the things. Speaking of afk, don't you have a node to crash so you can ***** about it?


Nope I hope the nodes stay active and the battle finishes either way. All the big nodes in highsec should be on reserve for nullsec battles. Enjoy mission running in 10% TiDi.


You will never really need more than 3 nodes (2 staging system + 1 fighting system) as long as SOV stays the same.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1483 - 2014-01-27 19:03:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?



Not everyone, just posters from high sec.

More serioulsy, some people can put aside their own self interest, i can. I make a MINT doing SOe missions, incursioning with ISN and tvp and throwing away caracals in FW (which I started doing after I saw this last year). But being able to profit from something doesn't make that something the right way to go.

This is the right wayfor combat pve to go (in descending order):

-Wormholes
-Sov null
-npc null
-low sec
-FW low sec
-high sec (most automated security so the trade off should be least income)

And this is what actually happens for individual income via combat pve:

-Wormholes
-FW
-High sec (incursions and "pirate" missions)
-NPC null
-SOV null
-regular high sec (damn near tied with sov null, TEST it)
-Low sec (still dead last)

The only place that works right is wormholes (mega risk, mega isk). Can you people not see this?


Start by nerfbatting the outliers in missioning and it would already help. Some corp are indeed out fo whack (SoE, Thukker, ...) and would require adjustement imo. You could also amke them more available in null to drag the price down a bit by using thier ebtter ratio for the LP. Making that ratio better that it is now could be considered too.

Put a better LP reward on incursion in low and null. Don't add ISK, just more LP. They have to become worthwhile to run in lower security space even if you can hardly field a pimp fleet which reduce your sites/unit fo time.


SoE and thukker are outliers, but not by very much, have you seen the Lp conversion rates on some of those corps with industrial implants, OMG.

Adding rewards to low and null incursions won't change anything. low and null incursion rewards would have to be totally unbalanced to get people to do them to a lvl that beats being able to do them in priate BSs in high sec (no one is gonna risk machs and vindis in non-high sec incursions.

Thing is, if you buff their rewards enough to compete with high sec incursions even after ship losses to pvp, all that means is that some alliance is going to come in, lock down the incursion constellation by force and farm it much like FW is farmed. It would literally do nothing but make the rich richer lol. I don't think there is any hope for non-high incursions.

I'd fix high sec incursions by making them unfarmable (ie, MOM pops up, all other sites stop paying out) and i would balance this by making high sec incursions instantly spawn somewhere else. Of course the incursion communities would have to adopt the beeny hill chase theme as there own, but what can you do lol.

The fix for SoE and thukker is simple, up the LP cost of everything in their LP stores like the ships are ie cheaper to get the stuff outside of high sec but still available in high sec. There is no reason a Sisters core probe should cost the same in LP in Lanngisi as it does in X-7.

Another thing I'd do is take null anomalies out of the upgrade system and replace them with some kind of mission agent with new null sec only LP stores (I dunno, minmatar station = minmatar agent of some kind, and if it's not a station system make the agent be at a beacon in space like cosmos agents are). Tying isk spewing anomalies to a military upgrade system they were not meant for was a mistake on CCPs part in Dominion IMO.

i dunno, not a game designer so all those could be crap ideas. What i do know is that the current combat pve system in EVE (outside of wormhole space) sucks and is like some kind of dysfunctional patchwork mess.


La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1484 - 2014-01-27 19:06:17 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?


Considering you are a bot-aspirant miner I think we can safely ignore anything you say.

Gotta afk mine all the things. Speaking of afk, don't you have a node to crash so you can ***** about it?


Nope I hope the nodes stay active and the battle finishes either way. All the big nodes in highsec should be on reserve for nullsec battles. Enjoy mission running in 10% TiDi.


You will never really need more than 3 nodes (2 staging system + 1 fighting system) as long as SOV stays the same.


That's not true you need as many high power nodes as you can get. What happens when you get more than 2 sides fighting in a war? What would really be nice would be the ability to "hot swap" a regular node for a high power node, like the jita node, without disconnects or planning. So CCP can push a button and enable a huge battle to happen at the drop of a hat.

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Anslo
Scope Works
#1485 - 2014-01-27 19:08:29 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?


Considering you are a bot-aspirant miner I think we can safely ignore anything you say.

Gotta afk mine all the things. Speaking of afk, don't you have a node to crash so you can ***** about it?


Nope I hope the nodes stay active and the battle finishes either way. All the big nodes in highsec should be on reserve for nullsec battles. Enjoy mission running in 10% TiDi.

Good thing that'll never happen. Enjoy your turkey shoot~

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1486 - 2014-01-27 19:12:23 UTC
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?


Considering you are a bot-aspirant miner I think we can safely ignore anything you say.

Gotta afk mine all the things. Speaking of afk, don't you have a node to crash so you can ***** about it?


Nope I hope the nodes stay active and the battle finishes either way. All the big nodes in highsec should be on reserve for nullsec battles. Enjoy mission running in 10% TiDi.

Good thing that'll never happen. Enjoy your turkey shoot~


I think instituting 10% TiDi across highsec would get the income nerf that is needed.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Thirtythousand
#1487 - 2014-01-27 19:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Thirtythousand
La Nariz wrote:
Thirtythousand wrote:


I'm also pretty sure that, without counter arguments, valid facts, or even accurate observations, that last post is only a ment to attack and derail arguments.

Should high sec be less safe? No. Eve needs a theme park that is valid enough to keep at least half the logged on numbers subscribed to keep eve online. Dont like it. Unsubscribe button is overthere. ^


You literally admitted to using an NPC alt to avoid consequences, that's literally the definition of risk averse highsec pubbie right there.


And again, post only to attack someone without any contribution to the topic.

if I am a high sec pubbie, what's it matter? I'm keeping eve online valid by logging in and enjoying internet space ships.

Do some market research and realise EvE isn't in a very secure position in the MMO scene, the last expansion and live event didn't generate much buzz, dust 514 is considered, by raw numbers as a f2p console fps, a failure in investment and profitability, and radical changes (for positive or negative to your playstyle) are going to happen. Or eve will just to continue to limp on. 10yrs, but in decline, a very slow one but still predictive models show over the next year. I did a whole post on it like 3 pages ago. Loom outside of eve and realise only a small number of people Enjoy the very niche gameplay that is eve. And only a slice of that pie even cares to try null sec.

Animosity doing its role. I've been a casual eve player since launch. Seen the stars. Seen the stars get a resolution update.
I'm not important. Just someone who enjoys my cake. Please stop trying to force me to enjoy your slice of cake

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1488 - 2014-01-27 19:15:43 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Everyone is biased but you, huh Jenn?



Not everyone, just posters from high sec.

More serioulsy, some people can put aside their own self interest, i can. I make a MINT doing SOe missions, incursioning with ISN and tvp and throwing away caracals in FW (which I started doing after I saw this last year). But being able to profit from something doesn't make that something the right way to go.

This is the right wayfor combat pve to go (in descending order):

-Wormholes
-Sov null
-npc null
-low sec
-FW low sec
-high sec (most automated security so the trade off should be least income)

And this is what actually happens for individual income via combat pve:

-Wormholes
-FW
-High sec (incursions and "pirate" missions)
-NPC null
-SOV null
-regular high sec (damn near tied with sov null, TEST it)
-Low sec (still dead last)

The only place that works right is wormholes (mega risk, mega isk). Can you people not see this?

Where are your numbers? Where is your test standard? What control conditions did you use to come to this conclusion?

Its easy to say what you feel or hope and have NOTHING to support it except your hate for hi-sec.

Here it is in a nutshell again. I really dont care where has the best isk/hr. Should I want to get what I call the best isk/hr then its on me to go get it not for CCP to give it to me. I have read several threads where you yourself have refferenced the same thing.

Stop looking for CCP to hand it to you and go get it.


So you've missed the dozens of threads where I speak about incursioning with TVP and ISN, and doing SoE and Trust Partner missions of throwing away caracals in FW lvl 4 missions (FW needs REAL lvl 4 missions btw)?

That's the point, I should not be able to do this, nor should anyone else, The kind of isk I make doing those things should be reserved for high end wormholes or sov null space that needs defending. Sure, a high sec dude should be able to make a living doing combat PVE, but this ins't a living, this is getting RICH. Don't you know I plex 4 accounts off noting but high sec isk now? The FW isk is just for when i don't feel like spending too much time (getting popped every 5th jump can get annoying after a while, but it's just a caracal lol).

CCP needs to totally rethink combat pve, and I mean from the floor up, because it's rewards are out of whack everywhere except wormholes. I don't know why these concepts are hard for anyone to understand.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1489 - 2014-01-27 19:27:47 UTC
Thirtythousand wrote:
And again, post only to attack someone without any contribution to the topic.

if I am a high sec pubbie, what's it matter? I'm keeping eve online valid by logging in and enjoying internet space ships.

Do some market research and realise EvE isn't in a very secure position in the MMO scene, the last expansion and live event didn't generate much buzz, dust 514 is considered, by raw numbers as a f2p console fps, a failure in investment and profitability, and radical changes (for positive or negative to your playstyle) are going to happen. Or eve will just to continue to limp on. 10yrs, but in decline, a very slow one but still predictive models show over the next year. I did a whole post on it like 3 pages ago. Loom outside of eve and realise only a small number of people Enjoy the very niche gameplay that is eve. And only a slice of that pie even cares to try null sec.

Animosity doing its role. I've been a casual eve player since launch. Seen the stars. Seen the stars get a resolution update.
I'm not important. Just someone who enjoys my cake. Please stop trying to force me to enjoy your slice of cake


That wasn't a personal attack it was using data to prove something. You whined and said I showed no proof then you literally described yourself as the definition of a highsec pubbie. You also complained that others were biased because they were from nullsec so I pointed out you were biased since you came from highsec.

Highsec pubbies can safely be ignored because they don't do anything that gets the game recognized outside of its own community, they don't generate exposure or content. Two things the game needs to grow, people need to know it exists and have a desire to play.

Examples:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304887104579306663398628476
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/06/21/real-economist-takes-lessons-from-virtual-world/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/07/09/eve-online-player-loses-a-spaceship-worth-approximately-9000/

None of those show a highsec person creating content or doing something so amazing that it attracts the attention of a national news organization.

Now you're trying to do the but, but, but, highsec subscriptions are > than the rest of the game so highsec should be coddled. Which isn't true and you can't back it up because CCP hasn't given us the data or a meaningful way to quantify who counts as a X sec subscription.

This isn't to say casuals should not be considered but, it is saying a specific group of loud risk averse highsec pubbies should be ignored and game balance should have nothing to do with them. Hence its time for highsec reward to be decreased or risk to be increased.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#1490 - 2014-01-27 19:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
If CCP decide to nerf hi-sec in the future, they will do so, because they believe it will improve the game.

Goon logic seems to be, 'we bring the game publicity, so CCP should do as we want or we shall whine endlessly on the forums because we are special snowflakes'

I sincerely hope goon whining will not have any influence on the game decisions CCP make.

Oh, and jeez man, stop using words like 'pubbie' it just makes you seem like the sad kid who wants to hang out with the cool kids on the street corner.

This is not a signature.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1491 - 2014-01-27 19:57:10 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If CCP decide to nerf hi-sec in the future, they will do so, because they believe it will improve the game.

Goon logic seems to be, 'we bring the game publicity, so CCP should do as we want or we shall whine endlessly on the forums because we are special snowflakes'

I sincerely hope goon whining will not have any influence on the game decisions CCP make.

Oh, and jeez man, stop using words like 'pubbie' it just makes you seem like the sad kid who wants to hang out with the cool kids on the street corner.


CCP has historically made mistakes look at Incarna and look what it took for them to admit that mistake. We've historically pointed out horrible parts of the game and when required abused them to the point they have to be changed; the best extemporaneous example I have of this is technetium. This is all in the process of pointing out a problem and getting it solved.

Highsec pubbies want to defend their horrible imbalance to the detriment of the game, which looks like what you're doing.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1492 - 2014-01-27 20:32:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

That wasn't a personal attack it was using data to prove something. You whined and said I showed no proof then you literally described yourself as the definition of a highsec pubbie. You also complained that others were biased because they were from nullsec so I pointed out you were biased since you came from highsec.

Highsec pubbies can safely be ignored because they don't do anything that gets the game recognized outside of its own community, they don't generate exposure or content. Two things the game needs to grow, people need to know it exists and have a desire to play.

Examples:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304887104579306663398628476
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/06/21/real-economist-takes-lessons-from-virtual-world/
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/07/09/eve-online-player-loses-a-spaceship-worth-approximately-9000/

None of those show a highsec person creating content or doing something so amazing that it attracts the attention of a national news organization.

Now you're trying to do the but, but, but, highsec subscriptions are > than the rest of the game so highsec should be coddled. Which isn't true and you can't back it up because CCP hasn't given us the data or a meaningful way to quantify who counts as a X sec subscription.

This isn't to say casuals should not be considered but, it is saying a specific group of loud risk averse highsec pubbies should be ignored and game balance should have nothing to do with them. Hence its time for highsec reward to be decreased or risk to be increased.

Seriously, what is a "pubbie" in this context?

Also, 2 of those articles aren't security specific.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1493 - 2014-01-27 20:42:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Seriously, what is a "pubbie" in this context?

Also, 2 of those articles aren't security specific.


None of the articles are highsec specific.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1494 - 2014-01-27 20:47:31 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Seriously, what is a "pubbie" in this context?

Also, 2 of those articles aren't security specific.


None of the articles are highsec specific.

They don't need to be as at least one includes economics which tends to concentrate where trade does, in highsec. The articles are great in their own way, but in the end are simply snapshots of particular events that occur as part of the game as a whole. Doesn't mean the game's other aspects don't serve purpose or are of less importance. Conversely, these event's were able to occur and continue to happen despite this "game breaking imbalance" thus making them even less relevant to the subject at hand.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1495 - 2014-01-27 20:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Seriously, what is a "pubbie" in this context?

Also, 2 of those articles aren't security specific.


None of the articles are highsec specific.

They don't need to be as at least one includes economics which tends to concentrate where trade does, in highsec. The articles are great in their own way, but in the end are simply snapshots of particular events that occur as part of the game as a whole. Doesn't mean the game's other aspects don't serve purpose or are of less importance. Conversely, these event's were able to occur and continue to happen despite this "game breaking imbalance" thus making them even less relevant to the subject at hand.


They are not highsec specific meaning they arise from the areas that are not broken or imbalanced. If highsec were fixed I'm sure we'd see stories coming out of highsec.

E: They do need to be highsec specific because that would show highsec is contributing content and awareness to the game.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1496 - 2014-01-27 21:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Thirtythousand wrote:
Do some market research and realise EvE isn't in a very secure position in the MMO scene, the last expansion and live event didn't generate much buzz, dust 514 is considered, by raw numbers as a f2p console fps, a failure in investment and profitability, and radical changes (for positive or negative to your playstyle) are going to happen. Or eve will just to continue to limp on. 10yrs, but in decline, a very slow one but still predictive models show over the next year. I did a whole post on it like 3 pages ago. Loom outside of eve and realise only a small number of people Enjoy the very niche gameplay that is eve. And only a slice of that pie even cares to try null sec.


Subscription numbers have been steadily rising for 10 years, so you will need some really solid evidence to backup your claim that EVE has infact been in decline for 10 years.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1497 - 2014-01-27 21:03:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Seriously, what is a "pubbie" in this context?

Also, 2 of those articles aren't security specific.


None of the articles are highsec specific.

They don't need to be as at least one includes economics which tends to concentrate where trade does, in highsec. The articles are great in their own way, but in the end are simply snapshots of particular events that occur as part of the game as a whole. Doesn't mean the game's other aspects don't serve purpose or are of less importance. Conversely, these event's were able to occur and continue to happen despite this "game breaking imbalance" thus making them even less relevant to the subject at hand.


They are not highsec specific meaning they arise from the areas that are not broken or imbalanced. If highsec were fixed I'm sure we'd see stories coming out of highsec.

Would we? Most of the ideas for fixing it seem related directly to simply reducing content or income for under the goal of spreading pilots elsewhere. Essentially trying to reduce it to a deadzone and/or true de facto new player only space. That's not going to generate stories there.

Though, if your suggesting this go another direction, I'd love to hear it.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1498 - 2014-01-27 21:08:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Would we? Most of the ideas for fixing it seem related directly to simply reducing content or income for under the goal of spreading pilots elsewhere. Essentially trying to reduce it to a deadzone and/or true de facto new player only space. That's not going to generate stories there.

Though, if your suggesting this go another direction, I'd love to hear it.


I think we would, yeah I agree just increasing install costs and increasing concord response times won't make highsec the place stories come from. They are the first step to rejuvenating highsec, decrease the reward or reintroduce risk to highsec. A revamp of war decs, a greater fleshing out of industry/trade, and more content creation tools are needed. However that is step two of solving the highsec problem and it needs a good foundation to build on, which step one provides.

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#1499 - 2014-01-27 21:22:44 UTC
Thirtythousand wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Thirtythousand wrote:


I'm also pretty sure that, without counter arguments, valid facts, or even accurate observations, that last post is only a ment to attack and derail arguments.

Should high sec be less safe? No. Eve needs a theme park that is valid enough to keep at least half the logged on numbers subscribed to keep eve online. Dont like it. Unsubscribe button is overthere. ^


You literally admitted to using an NPC alt to avoid consequences, that's literally the definition of risk averse highsec pubbie right there.


And again, post only to attack someone without any contribution to the topic.

if I am a high sec pubbie, what's it matter? I'm keeping eve online valid by logging in and enjoying internet space ships.

Do some market research and realise EvE isn't in a very secure position in the MMO scene, the last expansion and live event didn't generate much buzz, dust 514 is considered, by raw numbers as a f2p console fps, a failure in investment and profitability, and radical changes (for positive or negative to your playstyle) are going to happen. Or eve will just to continue to limp on. 10yrs, but in decline, a very slow one but still predictive models show over the next year. I did a whole post on it like 3 pages ago. Loom outside of eve and realise only a small number of people Enjoy the very niche gameplay that is eve. And only a slice of that pie even cares to try null sec.

Animosity doing its role. I've been a casual eve player since launch. Seen the stars. Seen the stars get a resolution update.
I'm not important. Just someone who enjoys my cake. Please stop trying to force me to enjoy your slice of cake

I like this guy...he is Eve version of JOE the plumber. Big smile
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1500 - 2014-01-27 21:22:52 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Would we? Most of the ideas for fixing it seem related directly to simply reducing content or income for under the goal of spreading pilots elsewhere. Essentially trying to reduce it to a deadzone and/or true de facto new player only space. That's not going to generate stories there.

Though, if your suggesting this go another direction, I'd love to hear it.


I think we would, yeah I agree just increasing install costs and increasing concord response times won't make highsec the place stories come from. They are the first step to rejuvenating highsec, decrease the reward or reintroduce risk to highsec. A revamp of war decs, a greater fleshing out of industry/trade, and more content creation tools are needed. However that is step two of solving the highsec problem and it needs a good foundation to build on, which step one provides.

This seems a noble goal at first glance, but is still opposed to what highsec is. I'd venture that the reason so many stories happen outside of highsec is entirely related to the fact that the range of possibilities there are intentionally broader that those inside highsec. Highsec that is the same old highsec, just slower cops and higher NPC costs won't provide unique reasons or scenarios that rival other spaces any more than it does now (and in a way is just a kick in the nuts to those of us who fit mission ships sensibly and tank barges by reducing cost:EHP for ganks).

And fundamentally highsec is just space with a more limited tool set to create relative safety, and as a result inhabitants that are less likely to engage or respond to aggression, so how do you make that something.

Basically, the income tweak is debatable and at a level probably needed, but how do you transform the intentionally safer area into a place that creates comparable content while still serving that purpose?