These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1141 - 2014-01-22 02:29:51 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
High Secs income (Excluding industry/trade since there is no way to tell how much of that is null sec dwellers simply using high sec for a neutral market vs alliance only market) is calculable using extrapolation maths. And doing that shows that High Secs total income is less than just the isk faucet portion of Nulls Income. Which totally ignores all the deadspace/officer loot, all the Moon Goo income, all the PI income etc.

And that was done assuming all incursions belonged to Highsec while we know some do get done in low/null to clear the cyno jam effects.


I laughed.

"Highsec's actual income, excluding all the trade done pretty much only in highsec because that disproves my point..."

Roll

Oh, that and anyone can just say things on a forum without having to prove any of it beyond trying to use a big word like "extrapolation" to scare me off. That too.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1142 - 2014-01-22 02:30:25 UTC
it doesn't really matter if nullsec bounties are a huge faucet in the argument of 'there's no reason to do anoms when you could be doing missions' because you're talking about personal income not economic balance

besides that, the idea that 'sinks are always good, faucets are always bad' is silly

it's also silly to present the fact anoms are a faucet as reason not to buff them as they don't have to be buffed by adding bounty value
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1143 - 2014-01-22 02:32:34 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
it doesn't really matter if nullsec bounties are a huge faucet in the argument of 'there's no reason to do anoms when you could be doing missions' because you're talking about personal income not economic balance

besides that, the idea that 'sinks are always good, faucets are always bad' is silly

it's also silly to present the fact anoms are a faucet as reason not to buff them as they don't have to be buffed by adding bounty value

The point is that despite all the complaints about 'High Sec earns more' Null Faucets alone beat all other related forms of High Sec income combined. Without considering the other forms of Null Sec income that already exist at all. Meaning that there is more isk to be made in Null Sec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1144 - 2014-01-22 02:36:55 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

The point is that despite all the complaints about 'High Sec earns more' Null Faucets alone beat all other related forms of High Sec income combined.


Except the ones you omit because they don't suit your argument.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1145 - 2014-01-22 02:40:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Except the ones you omit because they don't suit your argument.

No, those were omitted because they are an entirely different facet of the game and unless you remove High Sec entirely, Trade will always be higher in High Sec. Because of the Neutral market ability rather than NBSI markets.

However, since you want to fixate on them, T2 the bulk of the cost is PI & Moon Goo. T1 Ships the expensive minerals are Null Sec. The Bulk of PI is Null & WH space. Meaning the bulk of the materials cost for almost any industry is being paid into Null Sec also.
And there are very few industries where there is a large profit margin for the work, meaning materials is nearly the entire cost. Meaning Null Sec makes the lions share of the industry market already via materials.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1146 - 2014-01-22 02:43:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Except the ones you omit because they don't suit your argument.

No, those were omitted because they are an entirely different facet of the game and unless you remove High Sec entirely, Trade will always be higher in High Sec. Because of the Neutral market ability rather than NBSI markets.


Ergo, it's part of income in highsec.

Furthermore, we're not even talking about total gross.

We're talking about average earned potential.

Only so many guys can chew on anoms per day. They have an inherently subtractive method of income.

But you can cram people in an L4 system until the node breaks, and that mission giver doesn't run out. It's an inherently multiplicative method of income.

There's only one outcome of that equation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1147 - 2014-01-22 02:44:48 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
There is a case for making the initial capital investment cheaper, or stations offer more.
There is also a case for ALL Stations/Outposts to have more expensive lines, in order to allow POS manufacturing (Which again, Null Pos's cost less upkeep than High Pos's) to compete with stations.
And there is a very good case for getting rid of the stupidly low refining levels, making it just a single basic add on, and making it at least 40% on Amarr stations. Refining is not an entire branch of the game on it's own, and should not be getting put through the same levels of upgrades as the lab slots, offices & industry lines

it's not all high vs. null imma aware of that

be nice if it was worth manufacturing anything but capitals in lowsec, too. and it'd be nice to have starbase manufacturing as a thing

it's not only about nerfing highsec for the good of nullsec (but that's certainly a large part) it's about nerfing highsec npc manufacturing for the good of the industrial game. just as nerfing (ie completely removing) drone poop (and mission loot/poop but drone space was the most ridiculous mineral faucet) was done as a buff to mining. it was a change that pretty much everyone recognised had to happen. the goal is to make the industrial game more varied than 'set local orders for lowends, go to jita for highends, produce in highsec npc station, sell in a hub'

it's about creating additional degrees of depth and success for the industrialist, and infinite free perfect highsec slots are in the way of that

the number of slots in highsec shouldn't be removed. and highsec npc manufacturing should always be a viable way to profit. this is for the casual manufacturer or the newbie. but they shouldn't be the best option always
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1148 - 2014-01-22 02:45:56 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The point is that despite all the complaints about 'High Sec earns more' Null Faucets alone beat all other related forms of High Sec income combined. Without considering the other forms of Null Sec income that already exist at all. Meaning that there is more isk to be made in Null Sec.

that's total isk earned, though, not personal income, and personal income is the issue here
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1149 - 2014-01-22 02:47:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Ergo, it's part of income in highsec.

Furthermore, we're not even talking about total gross.

We're talking about average earned potential.

Only so many guys can chew on anoms per day. They have an inherently subtractive method of income.

But you can cram people in an L4 system until the node breaks, and that mission giver doesn't run out. It's an inherently multiplicative method of income.

There's only one outcome of that equation.

But it is not an income for High Sec. So trade can be pretty much ignored in any balancing arguments.

Regarding the anoms & lvl 4's, you would think there could be only one outcome, yet the gross income shows Null Wins. And that is with fewer people. Meaning the Average income per character is vastly higher in Null. So obviously the system doesn't work like you keep trying to pretend it does.

That said, again as I've said earlier, I'm all for more people being able to work a single null sec system at the same time, provided it doesn't give a single pilot working a system 5* the individual profits, but just allows 5* to work it at once. (Scale figures appropriately obviously)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1150 - 2014-01-22 02:52:30 UTC
Quote:
Regarding the anoms & lvl 4's, you would think there could be only one outcome, yet the gross income shows Null Wins.


I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1151 - 2014-01-22 02:56:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.

Because if you are trying to balance High vs Null, it is about gross. Not personal. Also the personal income figures they are trying to produce for High sec are rubbish. Just like the 500m/hr figures for null aren't sustainable.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1152 - 2014-01-22 02:59:47 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.

Because if you are trying to balance High vs Null, it is about gross. Not personal. Also the personal income figures they are trying to produce for High sec are rubbish. Just like the 500m/hr figures for null aren't sustainable.


No, it isn't.

Because the 50 guys in null that get to do anoms does not outweigh, regardless of whatever reasoning you can conjure, the 5 thousand or more who do L4s or incursions all day.

That kind of personal income is the issue here. That, and the unviability of industry anywhere but highsec. Anything else is just moving the goalposts.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1153 - 2014-01-22 03:03:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


No, it isn't.

Because the 50 guys in null that get to do anoms does not outweigh, regardless of whatever reasoning you can conjure, the 5 thousand or more who do L4s or incursions all day.

That kind of personal income is the issue here. That, and the unviability of industry anywhere but highsec. Anything else is just moving the goalposts.

Except it's obviously not 50 vs 5000, and it obviously does outweigh it, because Null does make more.
Also, Industry is available in Null now.

It's not moving goalposts, it's plain facts. Null has the isk. Null has the loot. Null has the PI. Null has the Moon Goo. And lastly Null does have the industrial capability possible.

If anyone is trying to move goalposts here, it's you when confronted with the facts that Null does earn more already.
Which of course your leaders know, it's why they have such empires in Null.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1154 - 2014-01-22 03:16:02 UTC
Quote:
Which of course your leaders know, it's why they have such empires in Null.


I do love such tactics. As though it's impossible to honestly disagree, I have to have an ulterior motive.

But I live in highsec. I haven't had "leaders" for years now.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Dedee Rediculous
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1155 - 2014-01-22 03:45:14 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Ergo, it's part of income in highsec.

Furthermore, we're not even talking about total gross.

We're talking about average earned potential.

Only so many guys can chew on anoms per day. They have an inherently subtractive method of income.

But you can cram people in an L4 system until the node breaks, and that mission giver doesn't run out. It's an inherently multiplicative method of income.

There's only one outcome of that equation.

But it is not an income for High Sec. So trade can be pretty much ignored in any balancing arguments.

Regarding the anoms & lvl 4's, you would think there could be only one outcome, yet the gross income shows Null Wins. And that is with fewer people. Meaning the Average income per character is vastly higher in Null. So obviously the system doesn't work like you keep trying to pretend it does.

That said, again as I've said earlier, I'm all for more people being able to work a single null sec system at the same time, provided it doesn't give a single pilot working a system 5* the individual profits, but just allows 5* to work it at once. (Scale figures appropriately obviously)


Wrong, or there wouldn't be so many high sec alts.
Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1156 - 2014-01-22 05:53:16 UTC
The answer nothing people still playing in high sec. Nothing more nothing less to talk about.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1157 - 2014-01-22 08:54:22 UTC
And once again it looks like everyone is just talking in circles.

Meanwhile, in the grand scheme of things, nothing changes.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1158 - 2014-01-22 09:09:03 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So long as those nerfs are not intended to fully cripple highsec industry and exist only to improve industry in Null I am not averse to reading it.

unfortunately whatever is said gets a bunch of drips completely missing the point yelling 'you're trying to force us into nullsec', 'you nullbears have just been doing it wrong', 'well stop shooting non-blues who try to go to null', 'nullsec is supposed to be somalia' (lol) etc etc etc


I don't think Null Sec is supposed to be Somalia but the perception is that null entities make it that way.

Additionally (and I may be missing it), I've not seen specifics on what nerfs to HS industry would be required to make NS competitive. It's hard to evaluate the proposal when there is no proposal other than a blanket. "NERF HIGH SEC!"

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1159 - 2014-01-22 09:10:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the anoms & lvl 4's, you would think there could be only one outcome, yet the gross income shows Null Wins.


I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.


I make less than everyone else, so everything must be nerfed to my levels of income.

The above statement is a valid as yours.

CCP must nerf or buff based on the grand scheme of things, NOT individuals.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1160 - 2014-01-22 09:20:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the anoms & lvl 4's, you would think there could be only one outcome, yet the gross income shows Null Wins.


I love how gross keeps coming up despite multiple people telling you it's not about that, but about personal income.


Gross income is a matter of where the ISK is most available.

Personal income is a matter of personal choice.


"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!