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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#781 - 2014-01-14 16:26:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But the problem hasn't been effectively fixed because if interruption is the problem before, interruption is still the problem after.


That is unbelievably dense.

The existence of interruption is not the problem.

It's the fact that there is nothing the inferior economic capacity of nullsec can do better than highsec.

So nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth the interruption.

If highsec were not the elephant in the room, then anything industrial in nullsec might be worth the chance of getting dropped on.
Quote:

But like I've said before, there needs to be a root cause analysis to figure out what exactly is the problem here.


The problem is that player owned industry < NPC owned industry.

There. That's it, the end.


What the hell kind of logic is this?

You didn't even propose any change. If you're saying mining should be terrible in highsec -- that's an awful proposition!

Mining is awful. It's a terrible, boring profession and I feel pity for the people who do it.

If you make mining terrible in highsec, the only result would be the price of minerals goes up -- and that means the price of nearly everything goes up.

It wouldn't magically make nullsec worth mining in. It would just make everybody in the game poorer.

IMO, the less people who mine, the better. I think if the entire mining profession was deleted and replaced with NPC miners, the game would be improved.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#782 - 2014-01-14 16:29:14 UTC
Quote:
You didn't even propose any change. If you're saying mining should be terrible in highsec -- that's an awful proposition!


Fortunately I didn't say that. Idk where you inferred it from.

Quote:
Mining is awful. It's a terrible, boring profession and I feel pity for the people who do it.


I feel pity for them, typically until I take my safeties off.

The rest of your post is just going off attacking a point I didn't make.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#783 - 2014-01-14 16:30:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
You didn't even propose any change. If you're saying mining should be terrible in highsec -- that's an awful proposition!


Fortunately I didn't say that. Idk where you inferred it from.

Quote:
Mining is awful. It's a terrible, boring profession and I feel pity for the people who do it.


I feel pity for them, typically until I take my safeties off.

The rest of your post is just going off attacking a point I didn't make.


It seems to me that you're deliberately being as vague as possible about your points so that nobody can debunk your awful logic.

What is your point, specifically?

What do you think should be changed, specifically?

The more specific, the better. Heck, maybe you even have a good idea.
Prince Kobol
#784 - 2014-01-14 16:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
The "interruption" issue has always existed and will always exist, the issue is that there is no incentive to continue to put up with those interruptions, risk, effort when you can just go back to HS and earn the same if not more isk for considerable less risk and effort.

If you were to introduce something new, what ever that something is such as ring mining, that makes it worth while to put up with those interruptions, risk, effort along with an increase in refinery and manufacturing lines for null sec stations coupled with an increase in costs in NPC stations and possibly a reduction in manufacturing lines then the combination of all those things might make it worth while for the industrialist to move out to null to ply there trade.

A new tasty carrot needs to be introduced and not just a big **** off stick

No one thing will fix the issue, it is going to take a number of things to effect any change.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#785 - 2014-01-14 16:33:54 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
There is so much sparring going on that is just muddying the water. It might be helpful if the nullsec community can come to some sort of plurality on the central question: Is there a problem with industry in nullsec, and do we want to do something about it?

There is nothing we can do about it, the effort and expense involved is too great for industry in nullsec to ever be feasible.
You don't play in null, by your own admission. Perhaps you should stop commenting on things you know nothing about.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#786 - 2014-01-14 16:34:40 UTC
Quote:
It seems to me that you're deliberately being as vague as possible about your points so that nobody can debunk your awful logic.


No, but every time I attempt to go into detail, one of you all takes a sentence out of context and ignores the rest.

Quote:
What is your point, specifically?


My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

Quote:
What do you think should be changed, specifically?


To highsec, or just to industry? I have a fair few ideas for both.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#787 - 2014-01-14 16:37:25 UTC
I dont have to be a null rat to want to be there. I also don't have to be a nullrat to suggest an alternative to killing the game by nerfing industry in highsec. WHat's your positive contribution to the discussion?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#788 - 2014-01-14 16:38:08 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
The "interruption" issue has always existed and will always exist, the issue that there is no incentive to continue to put up with those interruptions when you can just go back to HS and earn the same if not more isk.


The fact is, mining is awful and it's not all that profitable.

The only reason people do it in highsec is that you can be semi-afk while doing it.

If what you are doing in EVE only earns you 20 - 30m isk/hour....I'd better hope you could do it while being semi-afk, because that's pretty horrible, no?

Prince Kobol wrote:
If you were to introduce something new what ever that something is, that makes it worth while to put with those interruptions, risk, effort


So you have no ideas? It's a tough issue.

Prince Kobol wrote:
along with an increase in refinery


Pretty sure you can perfectly refine in nullsec already.

Prince Kobol wrote:
and manufacturing lines for null sec stations


This was already just recently buffed, but no alliance has really taken advantage of it yet. Getting 300+ manufacturing lines in a single station is no joke.

Prince Kobol wrote:
along with an increase in costs in NPC stations and possibly a reduction in manufacturing lines then the combination of all those things might make it worth while for the industrialist to move out to null to ply there trade.


You're contradicting yourself slightly, because there is a lot of NPC stations in nullsec/lowsec. Should those have an increase in cost as well?

Reducing highsec slots won't make nullsec industry better. All the same pitfalls will still be there.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#789 - 2014-01-14 16:41:07 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I dont have to be a null rat to want to be there. I also don't have to be a nullrat to suggest an alternative to killing the game by nerfing industry in highsec. WHat's your positive contribution to the discussion?

Nerfing highsec industry would not kill the game. Stop using scare tactics.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#790 - 2014-01-14 16:42:36 UTC  |  Edited by: ZynnLee Akkori
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts on the view that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec? (expressed by multiple times in the thread)

If your answer is no, then what nerf (if any) do you feel would provide enough incentive to move to Null?
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#791 - 2014-01-14 16:43:45 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I dont have to be a null rat to want to be there. I also don't have to be a nullrat to suggest an alternative to killing the game by nerfing industry in highsec. WHat's your positive contribution to the discussion?

Nerfing highsec industry would not kill the game. Stop using scare tactics.

Why not?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#792 - 2014-01-14 16:44:55 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

It would help. I'm not sure if it would be enough. You should definitely lose the perfect refine, too.

ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts, expressed multiple times in the thread, that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec?

What behavior? It's probably not what you think it is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#793 - 2014-01-14 16:45:43 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I dont have to be a null rat to want to be there. I also don't have to be a nullrat to suggest an alternative to killing the game by nerfing industry in highsec. WHat's your positive contribution to the discussion?

Nerfing highsec industry would not kill the game. Stop using scare tactics.

Why not?

The burden of proof is on you to show why it would.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#794 - 2014-01-14 16:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts, expressed multiple times in the thread, that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec?

If your answer is no, then what nerf (if any) do you feel would provide enough incentive to move to Null?


Removing highsec slots won't make nullsec industry more desirable.

It would have a number of detrimental effects on the game.

1) Newbies are not going to attempt to learn how to do industry in nullsec. It's too skillpoint and time intensive. A blockade runner would be a minimum barrier to entry - along with endless patience and free time.

2) It would reduce the efficiency of the industry apparatus as a whole. Most of the goods will still be bought/sold in highsec, so basically it would just increase the cost of goods.

The increase in cost of goods would come from two groups:

Group A:
These people would switch most of their manufacturing to POS manufacturing. They will pass on the additional cost to the customers.

Group B:
These people will move into lowsec/nullsec to manufacture. It will cost jump freighter fuel and substantially more time hauling stuff around back/forth from highsec trade hubs to their nullsec manufacturing centers.. The increased cost will get passed to the customers...

I honestly think Group A would have an easier time than Group B, which pretty much backs up my point that these kinds of changes wont have the impact you are hoping they would.
Etria Issen
Imperial Varista
#795 - 2014-01-14 16:51:19 UTC
I feel there's some irony that EVE's open-world PvP nature, is the direct reason hisec is probably in this kind of state. If people didn't associate low and nullsec with "I can get blown up by any random person.", or if it wasn't such a likely scenario if you're in a weak, mostly defenseless ship...

Hisec's danger is, largely, NPCs. This is something CCP has direct control over. As hisec is largely safe in this state, stuff isn't too valuable up here.

The problem being lowsec and nullsec, while still having NPC risks, now have a factor that is uncontrollable by CCP - the players. They probably 'scale' lowsec/nullsec to the NPCs, increasing the value of stuff found there proportionally. The problem is the human factor. The scaling doesn't fit the fact that by going into lowsec or nullsec, you now gain an entire new problem that is completely unscalable: other players.

As someone mentioned at some point, EVE is a lot about risk and reward. And by going into low/null, your risk skyrockets through the roof due to the human factor. The rewards scale to the NPC factor, but CCP has no way to figure out how much the human factor is 'worth' in the risk equation. If you probably looked at all three sectors from just the pure NPC risk, they probably scale very nicely.

The human factor completely ruins it though.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#796 - 2014-01-14 16:52:41 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


My point is that the existence of NPC controlled industry at such a level as currently exists is the root cause of the problem. It de-incentivizes manufacturing anything else.

So do you agree with the suggestion that nerfing resource processing efficiency and the number of manufacturing slots in highsec will make null more attractive to industrialists?

If your answer is yes, then what are your thoughts, expressed multiple times in the thread, that the behavior of many null citizens toward industrialists in highsec have ruined their interest in nullsec?

If your answer is no, then what nerf (if any) do you feel would provide enough incentive to move to Null?


To the first question.

You MUST deal with the elephant in the room. Highsec crowds out the possibility of other industry. The only real industries that exist outside of highsec are capitals and wormholes, both of which are not by choice.

To the second question.

And? They still like money. The ones who want to go, will go. The ones who don't? **** em. When there's actually a void to fill, capitalism will fill it. It's not like the industrialists who are upset at nullsec don't realize that some of their goods are bought by nullsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Reiisha
#797 - 2014-01-14 17:04:20 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Hello.

My prediction: Suddenly EVE becomes much more fun, and a better game in general.

Bots are no longer worthwhile as they make easy targets for PvPers.
The EVE economy becomes dominated by intelligent humans, not machines or "bot aspirant" grinders.

Due to the rapid deflation of the market, low and nullsec players find it much easier to use ingame methods to make ISK
(as their main competition, the botting/multiboxing afk/semi afk hisec players' advantage has been nullified.)

Solo and small gang pvp can now be found in abundance as there are targets and organisations of varying sizes everywhere.

Politics and the metagame get a lot deeper as even PvE focused gamers would have to consider how other players affect their gameplay.


What are your thoughts on what would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

Edit:

Hold on a minute guys, I'm getting a lot of replies about how the hisec PvE population will quit.

To me, this doesn't make much sense. There are many other games with a much more focused, sophisticated PVE experience.

Why would many PvE gamers play a game that doesn't have much PvE content?


Yes, of course it's a good idea to put even more power in the hands of a single entity.

Distribution of wealth like this is a good thing. If 0.0 was the only way to make isk or anything related, the game would become the dominion of veterans only - And the one entity that would gain this power may have never had it in the first place if high sec wasn't as lucrative as it is now.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#798 - 2014-01-14 17:07:28 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:



Point -----> You


By getting the people who mine, manufacture and sell the goods to you to come to you.

Here is a little hint: STOP KILLING THOSE WHO WANT TO SELL YOU THE STUFF YOU USE TO KILL OTHERS WITH:


Us killing people in high sec has zero impact on our recruitment. Stop with this lie.
Prince Kobol
#799 - 2014-01-14 17:10:54 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

The fact is, mining is awful and it's not all that profitable.

The only reason people do it in highsec is that you can be semi-afk while doing it.

If what you are doing in EVE only earns you 20 - 30m isk/hour....I'd better hope you could do it while being semi-afk, because that's pretty horrible, no?


Your point is what?

Pinky Hops wrote:


So you have no ideas? It's a tough issue.



I have already expressed my ideas a number of times, just because you chose to ignore them whilst selectively quoting me to try and look good is not my fault.

Pinky Hops wrote:

Pretty sure you can perfectly refine in nullsec already.

This was already just recently buffed, but no alliance has really taken advantage of it yet. Getting 300+ manufacturing lines in a single station is no joke.


Please tell everybody how you obtain 100% refinery and 300+ manufacturing lines in a player built station. Don't forget to explain the cost and how you accomplish this.

Pinky Hops wrote:
You're contradicting yourself slightly, because there is a lot of NPC stations in nullsec/lowsec. Should those have an increase in cost as well?.


How am I contradicting myself.. what is hard to understand about NPC Stations?

Pinky Hops wrote:
Reducing highsec slots won't make nullsec industry better. All the same pitfalls will still be there.


Funny, I already answered this before, once again you are selectively quoting. Please try harder next time.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#800 - 2014-01-14 17:12:17 UTC
It wouldn't surprise me if CCP takes the same view on risk/reward as they do with ship cost/power.

To roughly quote a dev blog - "an exponential increase in ship base price corresponds to a linear increase in ship power"

note they didn't specify any specific exponent. so we can only take this to mean that for a ship to double in power, it's going to cost WAY more than double the isk.

likewise, i see the same with risk/reward. if risk doubles, profit doesn't.. for profit to double, the risk needs to go WAYYYYY up.

is this good or bad? i have no idea - it's just the nature of EVE.

the game has been around an awfully long time, so it can't be completely broken.