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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#721 - 2014-01-14 14:17:49 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Been there and done that and surprise surprise it didn't work, why, because who the hell wants to log onto to a game and watch somebody mine for a few hours not getting any isk?

Why should people spend hours watching other people mine (earn isk) when they have not?


You know, it's funny you should say this, because this is an advice that is provided to hi sec miners ad nauseum during hulkageddon- and jihadswarm-like events. I'm curious as to why is it good for the goose but not the gander to get protection while mining?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#722 - 2014-01-14 14:19:17 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
I am itching to see null. Never even been close to it before. It's a part of the game that is walled off to me due to the fact that I am unwilling to allow other gamers to ruin my fun.

you're already allowing it
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#723 - 2014-01-14 14:21:33 UTC
it occurs to me that this discussion would go so much more smoothly if every single ignorant highseccer didn't insist that the situation be explained in full specially just for him yet again
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#724 - 2014-01-14 14:24:31 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
it occurs to me that this discussion would go so much more smoothly if every single ignorant highseccer didn't insist that the situation be explained in full specially just for him yet again


Perhaps because they have yet to explain it for the first time.....?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#725 - 2014-01-14 14:32:03 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
it occurs to me that this discussion would go so much more smoothly if every single ignorant highseccer didn't insist that the situation be explained in full specially just for him yet again


Perhaps because they have yet to explain it for the first time.....?


Ok.

It is harder, more expensive, and slower to manufacture things in nullsec. It also has a much higher opportunity cost for the actual people involved.

It is literally cheaper to just use the personnel you have to grind isk and buy the stuff you need.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#726 - 2014-01-14 14:34:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It is harder


In what way?

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
more expensive


Which additional costs do you incur? The only one I can think of is fuel for the jump freighter.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
and slower to manufacture things in nullsec.


Can't see how it would be slower. Amarr factory outposts have the same 30% bonus as the highsec ones...
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#727 - 2014-01-14 14:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kira Enomoto
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
it occurs to me that this discussion would go so much more smoothly if every single ignorant highseccer didn't insist that the situation be explained in full specially just for him yet again


Perhaps because they have yet to explain it for the first time.....?


Ok.

It is harder, more expensive, and slower to manufacture things in nullsec. It also has a much higher opportunity cost for the actual people involved.

It is literally cheaper to just use the personnel you have to grind isk and buy the stuff you need.


But you are still missing the "because"...

1. It is harder because...

2. It is more expensive because...

3. It is slower because...

If you need additional help with the formatting, I will be glad to help. Or perhaps look at some of the other posters post. There have been some nice counter posts to your standpoint that have contained a lot of statistics and numbers as to why they have a certain standpoint.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#728 - 2014-01-14 14:37:42 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
it occurs to me that this discussion would go so much more smoothly if every single ignorant highseccer didn't insist that the situation be explained in full specially just for him yet again


Perhaps because they have yet to explain it for the first time.....?

personally to you? what makes you so special you need a private briefing
Quote:

You know, it's funny you should say this, because this is an advice that is provided to hi sec miners ad nauseum during hulkageddon- and jihadswarm-like events. I'm curious as to why is it good for the goose but not the gander to get protection while mining?

Depends. That advice is given to Hulkageddon victims when they whine "there's no defence against gankers" when there clearly is. If your only option in mining is to mine with protection, you take the protection. When we're dicussing the feasibility of mining in lowsec with protection versus highsec where's you're unlikely to need it, it's usually far better to mine in highsec with all the pilots who would have been flying protection sitting in barges instead. Also, if there's combat ships nearby, you're basically broadcasting "anyone who wants a scrap just needs to come over here and aggro a barge and they'll get it"
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#729 - 2014-01-14 14:40:30 UTC
Constant attrition generally makes all activity harder, slower and more expensive to do.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#730 - 2014-01-14 14:41:05 UTC
Quote:
Can't see how it would be slower.


You really don't understand why buying something instantly is faster than making it yourself?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#731 - 2014-01-14 14:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
lol, and it always comes back to mining, as if you actually need to mine in nullsec to participate in industry.

1) there exists a thing called mineral compression

2) there are plenty of things you can make that don't even COST minerals. see: rigs.

are relic/data sites profitable to run? Yes. do people in nullsec alliances run them? Yes.

Bingo -- now you have all the resources on hand to produce T1/T2 rigs. Congrats.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Can't see how it would be slower.


You really don't understand why buying something instantly is faster than making it yourself?


By that logic it's never worth it to produce, not even in highsec. Just buy it instead.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#732 - 2014-01-14 14:43:05 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:

personally to you? what makes you so special you need a private briefing


Well, I am ME. So that is also a good reason.

The other might be that, as I said, they still haven't said anything else than: "Because I say so". While this may work in kindergarden, among adults it is really not a sound argument to make.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#733 - 2014-01-14 14:43:21 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
lol, and it always comes back to mining


There is no activity that will not be hampered by constant attrition

It doesnt make industry impossible, it makes it harder

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#734 - 2014-01-14 14:45:28 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
1) there exists a thing called mineral compression

you don't even comprehend the problem
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#735 - 2014-01-14 14:46:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Can't see how it would be slower.


You really don't understand why buying something instantly is faster than making it yourself?


Hmm... Lets see... What is the fastest thing to do...?

1. Fly several jumps to purchase what you need.

2. Purchase what you need right at the station where you spend most of your time.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#736 - 2014-01-14 14:48:37 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
lol, and it always comes back to mining


There is no activity that will not be hampered by constant attrition

It doesnt make industry impossible, it makes it harder


The core of industry only comes down to three things.

1) Hauling goods around.

2) Clicking through the cluster-**** of a UI to make things whilst sitting at a station.

3) Occasionally fiddling with a POS. In nullsec you might not even need one considering how many slots there are.

So as for 1), I don't think JF'ing goods in nullsec is more dangerous than freightering goods in highsec. Red Frog loses freighters on a regular basis in highsec, as do many others.

JF is inherently faster/safer than a traditional freighter. If you don't agree, you've probably never flown a freighter through highsec before -- experiencing the thrill of getting cargo scanned every other gate.

As for 2) Sitting in a station clicking through UI does not have any inherent danger associated with it.

For 3), POS's are definitely more at risk in nullsec than in highsec, but that's about the only aspect of increased risk I'll grant you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#737 - 2014-01-14 14:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Pinky Hops wrote:
lol, and it always comes back to mining, as if you actually need to mine in nullsec to participate in industry.

1) there exists a thing called mineral compression

2) there are plenty of things you can make that don't even COST minerals. see: rigs.

are relic/data sites profitable to run? Yes. do people in nullsec alliances run them? Yes.

Bingo -- now you have all the resources on hand to produce T1/T2 rigs. Congrats.


I really do think you're trolling at this point.

Why on God's Green Earth would I bother shipping minerals in a jump freighter, then take the time to cook the blueprints myself(in a facility that is vulnerable to attack no less), when I can just buy the finished product?

It's not like I can possibly make it any cheaper than the guy selling it in Jita.

Same number of jumps.

Quote:
By that logic it's never worth it to produce, not even in highsec. Just buy it instead.


If you intend to actually use it, that is pretty close to true.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#738 - 2014-01-14 14:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Pinky Hops wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
lol, and it always comes back to mining


There is no activity that will not be hampered by constant attrition

It doesnt make industry impossible, it makes it harder


The core of industry only comes down to three things.

1) Hauling goods around.

2) Clicking through the cluster-**** of a UI to make things whilst sitting at a station.

3) Occasionally fiddling with a POS. In nullsec you might not even need one considering how many slots there are.

So as for 1), I don't think JF'ing goods in nullsec is more dangerous than freightering goods in highsec. Red Frog loses freighters on a regular basis in highsec, as do many others.

JF is inherently faster/safer than a traditional freighter. If you don't agree, you've probably never flown a freighter through highsec before -- experiencing the thrill of getting cargo scanned every other gate.

As for 2) Sitting in a station clicking through UI does not have any inherent danger associated with it.

For 3), POS's are definitely more at risk in nullsec than in highsec, but that's about the only aspect of increased risk I'll grant you.



Cool materials magically appear in Jump freighters and Jump freighters never die, thats good to know

Also; Jump freghters are free to purchase and operate

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Prince Kobol
#739 - 2014-01-14 14:52:37 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Been there and done that and surprise surprise it didn't work, why, because who the hell wants to log onto to a game and watch somebody mine for a few hours not getting any isk?

Why should people spend hours watching other people mine (earn isk) when they have not?


You know, it's funny you should say this, because this is an advice that is provided to hi sec miners ad nauseum during hulkageddon- and jihadswarm-like events. I'm curious as to why is it good for the goose but not the gander to get protection while mining?



Why no as they are 2 different things.

The easiest way to protect against ganking is to fit a decent tank, set standings to known gankers so they show red in local.

Chances are they will gank the poor unsuspecting sod next to you with zero tank.

If a gankers want to kill you they will, it is something that you have to accept.

I know as I have ganked and had ganks attempted on me.

Most ganks were successful and all attempts on me failed.

As for mining in null, it is different as with ganking its all about the Alpha, in null alpha does not matter.

A Defence Fleet is not going to stop you getting ganked.

Another issue is say you have a 15 man defence fleet to protect your mining fleet in null.

Say the Op is to last 2 hours. During those 2 hours those guys in the defence fleet could be out ratting / running anons earning isk, instead you are asking them to watch people mine for 2 hours.

Yay.. watching somebody mine for 2 hours, not boring or tedious at all.

Do they not deserve to earn isk or have fun during those 2 hours? Now if you are going to pay them its an additional cost, if you don't they simply will not log on for that Op and you can't blame them.

So mine without a defence fleet, possible, sure, just go don't afk to watch a film or a bio break, nip to the shops to get some beer / ciggies, grab a shower etc whilst your mining because if you miss that Intel report or a red logging on in your system your dead.

In null there is no concord to blap the guy shooting you.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#740 - 2014-01-14 14:52:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
lol, and it always comes back to mining, as if you actually need to mine in nullsec to participate in industry.

1) there exists a thing called mineral compression

2) there are plenty of things you can make that don't even COST minerals. see: rigs.

are relic/data sites profitable to run? Yes. do people in nullsec alliances run them? Yes.

Bingo -- now you have all the resources on hand to produce T1/T2 rigs. Congrats.


I really do think you're trolling at this point.

Why on God's Green Earth would I bother shipping minerals in a jump freighter, then take the time to cook the blueprints myself(in a facility that is vulnerable to attack no less), when I can just buy the finished product?


So your response to to me giving an example of something you can produce at a high profit without shipping in minerals -- is that you will need to ship minerals to do so.

You don't know anything about industry, clearly. You can make rigs without minerals. All they take is the salvage that you can pick up from relic/data sites.