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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#621 - 2014-01-14 00:10:14 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think you're confusing "it's possible to do it" with "it makes sense to do it".
It might be possible, sure, if we fill every single system with a factory outpost. But don't ******* tell me that requiring us to do so in order to get a decent industrial base is good game balance.

What counts here as a decent industrial base?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#622 - 2014-01-14 00:10:48 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.

Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.

Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.

This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen.

Why would we want to do that?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#623 - 2014-01-14 00:11:30 UTC
If you fill every single system with an industrial outpost, you will have something like five times the total output of high sec.
To get enough to meet your own needs (Using above assumptions), you probably need one industrial outpost every dozen or so systems. Pretty much one per constellation. I don't think that's an unreasonable ratio of stations.

Now, if the cost of stations is balanced. That's a different question. If it's sensible, that's a different question.

But you were trying to argue 'We can't do it' Which is false.
"We choose not to do it because we don't want that many outposts for other reasons already" is a different story.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#624 - 2014-01-14 00:12:50 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


You're talking about the trade hubs as though they're something set in stone, like they don't fluctuate or anything.

Meanwhile, Rens is slowly being eaten away by Hek, and only a few people are really noticing.

Hell, Yulai used to be a trade hub. It used to be THE trade hub.

This is why I think it might be possible to move a trade hub into Null, if a big Alliance were to commit to a solid 6 month long campaign to make it 'safe enough' for traders to move in that direction. And if CCP makes Null stations a little more attractive for refining. Make it a bread crumb thing. FInd a station in .6 and make it popular by loading it up with great deals and buy orders for everything for a few months. Then, when people are getting used to coming there, move it a few more jumps into .4 space and repeat for another couple months. Then into .1 space. Guard the gates ferociously, popping any pirates trying to hassle traders. In 6 months to a year, it could happen.

Yulai ceased being a trade hub because of CCP intervention moving some gates. None of the other trade hubs which appeared after that CCP intervention have died out.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#625 - 2014-01-14 00:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.


Wtf?

Except that you get that in every single system. You don't need research outposts, at all, ever, because POS's take up that role.

You only need 1 refining outpost per constellation at MOST.

340 slots per system is fantastic, and should absolutely be sufficient to seed a large coalition with nearly everything they need, assuming they are actually used.

With just 50 factory outposts, that's 17,000 manufacturing slots - enough to service 1,700 full time industrial manufacturing characters.

That slot density far exceeds what is possible in highsec.

Of course, it requires a coalition to *cough* actually manage it's resources....

(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.)
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#626 - 2014-01-14 00:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:

(On something of a side note, I wonder how the economy would respond if say for 6-months to a year there was a sustained pvp atmosphere maintained in the existing 6 hubs. What would emerge then? Where would people go? Could new mini-hubs be spontaneously generated? A rapid dispersal of industry? In other words, to improve their own industry, instead of begging for resource reallocation, what would happen if null sec declared war on high sec's economy?)




My Indy alts tend to do most of their manufacturing and trade from out of system. In fact in some cases out of region as you only need to fly one jump into a region to adjust your trade prices and kick off new manufacturing anywhere in the region.


I'm sure that's true, but if 6,000 ships were being destroyed every day at the Jita undock, your destination to alter those orders would need adjustment in short order.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
340 slots in a fully upgraded outpost is nowhere close to what we need. You don't know what you're talking about.


I guess the thing that irks me the most about all this is that broad generalizations are used to make so many of these points. Who gets to mine everything they need in the same system they refine and manufacture in high sec? The noobs manufacturing ammo? I know I don't and I spent months working for perfect refining with 14 npc corps.

In a normal week for me, I've got to survey scan the 6-10 systems I'm currently mining in to see which have gotten mined the hardest over the weekend just to idenfity a starting point. (Over the weekend, everybody and their momma logs into high sec and literally everything gets wiped out. Mondays are rejuvination days (that's why I'm here) - sometimes Tuesdays too.) The systems I'm working out of right now are upwards to 10 jumps apart and none are near a hub. My corp theme (KADORCORP) had to be readjusted almost immediately because I couldn't maintain my gameplay (though I wanted to) by remaining within the borders of a single region. I still spend most of my time in Kador, and work there as frequently as I can, but now I roam three regions.)

Somewhat unsurprisingly, the systems best suited for mining (the ones least valued) have no/lvl 1 agents, no manufacturing slots or for maximum pow, no stations. If you're running an orca + 2/3 barge setup, you can wipe out a 5-6 belt system of everything but veldspar in a couple hrs. and do major dmg to a 10-12 belt system in that same time. Just one player easily devalues prime real estate quickly by mining from high-ends to low. Because these belts now respawn in reduced quantities, even if you've found the best kept mining secret in all of EVE, in 2 days, tops, you've got to move on.

So mining in high sec these days, is a game of strategic surveying, decentralization of assets, constant vigilance, and manditory transport of materials from a number of outlying systems to wherever you decide to centrally manufacture (which hopefully IS a system near a hub. I've been lucky enough to get my manufacturing done within 4 jumps of a hub now for years, so there's that at least.) But it is not a 'let's count the slots' and compare game and it's certainly not a system where high sec industrialists have 'everything they need' in one convenient location either. I'm working all over the map in three regions.

Just wanted to point out that there are logistical challenges here too.

imo.

YK
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#627 - 2014-01-14 00:32:48 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.)
LOL
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#628 - 2014-01-14 00:35:13 UTC
I'm just going to let Tippia address this. He knows this **** a lot better than I do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#629 - 2014-01-14 00:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
EI Digin wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
(and don't tell me 50 systems/outposts is a lot. it isn't.)
LOL


Goonswarm Federation has sov in 206 systems, and access to 90 outposts.

This is the sandbox. They can decide what goes where. Sure, it has an upfront cost -- but divided by the amount of slots gained it isn't jack **** as long as you intend to use them.

The real reason industry sucks in nullsec isn't because you can't outproduce highsec.

It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them.

That AND the fact that it's in the center of the freaking map.......Positional advantage.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#630 - 2014-01-14 00:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: EI Digin
So now every alliance has to be Goonswarm Federation in order to have a decent industrial base?

Quote:
It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them.


Where do you think people lose all of this stuff? Highsec? To what?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#631 - 2014-01-14 00:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Referencing Dotlan.
3294 'Outlaw' systems. I can't establish exactly how many are NPC.
2751 appears to be the Sov systems off Dotlan. Should be close enough anyway.

Using aforementioned figure of 1 Factory Outpost per 12 systems.
229 Factory outposts.

At 170 base slots per system.
38930 factory slots, with 50% discounts on time to certain things (Ships which take the most time typically).
So potentially 77860 slots equivalent.
Lets take a nice mid point for how many functional slots as some will be used to build unbonused things.
58395 final effective slots.

Now, I can't find a reference, but I recall someone throwing around the figure of high sec having something like 65,000 slots in total? If someone could reference that one?

So (assuming the former high sec count) at one Industry outpost per 12 systems, Null Sec has approximately the same total output as High Sec. When we have already established that that output isn't actually used and empty slots are common. Meaning 1 outpost per 12 systems is actually too many for Null Sec. And 1 about every 30 systems would actually be the right ratio for Null to be capable of building everything locally. Then of course, Null would have to get the miners (Who thanks to Rorq boosts actually earn more in Null even mining the same ore, let alone the better ore) to provide the resources for that into Null, after years of convincing them that all they are is targets to be ganked & awoxed on.
But, 1 per 30? That's the ratio we seem to be landing at of how many industry outposts are needed vs systems.

Edit: 340 slots per station is actually wrong.
It's.
50 Base slots.
100 Slots type A at 60% time reduction. (250 slots used perfectly)
60 Slots Type B at 50% time reduction. (120 slots used perfectly)

Type A/B being time bonus to Tech 1 or Tech 2 ship production.

So an Industrial station is actually 420 slots when used perfectly.
I'll leave the above maths alone and simply assume a larger portion of the slots are used for the wrong type of production so don't get a bonus.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#632 - 2014-01-14 00:52:56 UTC
If highsec industry has the natural advantage of being in a central location and having relative safety, it doesn't also need the artificial advantage of zero tax and (practically) zero expense.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#633 - 2014-01-14 01:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
EI Digin wrote:
So now every alliance has to be Goonswarm Federation in order to have a decent industrial base?

Quote:
It's because highsec represents a massive portion of the market itself. Selling stuff there is advantageous inherently because so many people play there -- and thus we get back to the silly fact that it's most efficient to produce things where you intend to sell them.


Where do you think people lose all of this stuff? Highsec? To what?


No way.

I was just saying it was possible for GSF to do it -- even considering the absolutely enormous amount of players they have.

If 1 maxed outpost really does yield 340 slots then it should be doable for virtually any of the established nullsec powerblocks unless you have a huge amount of players and a small amount of systems. Like TEST. But it's hard to call such an alliance a nullsec power at the moment....

It's hard to really put a finger on how much production you "need." Is absolute 100% self sufficiency required? Probably unrealistic, no?

But just an example, one character can produce over 40 interceptors in a day.

HAC's? How about 8 Ishtar's a day? Doesn't sound like much -- but this is just one character.

Shrug. Embrace the sandbox or not. You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships. You have the tools to make what you need.

EI Digin wrote:
If highsec industry has the natural advantage of being in a central location and having relative safety, it doesn't also need the artificial advantage of zero tax and (practically) zero expense.


There's lots of expenses in highsec compared to an idealized nullsec for industrial purposes.

No cynos is the biggest one. Jump freighters are an enormous logistical advantage versus standard freighters. There's no comparison. The only way to outperform a jump freighter is to....Use a titan bridge to bridge standard freighters around -- which is again, only possible in nullsec/lowsec.

As far as safety -- well, that's the whole game isn't it?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#634 - 2014-01-14 01:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
I'd like to point something out to the people who are still claiming this can be done.

Nullsec doesn't avoid this because they're stubborn, or whatever. Goonswarm themselves turned into renters recently as necessity demanded. Nullsec as a whole does what it has to, to get the job done.

If this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.

Get a little coalition/alliance going and ask the CFC, or N3, or whoever you feel like, to let you in with that intent. Otherwise you're theorycrafting and claiming it's fact, also known as spouting off.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#635 - 2014-01-14 01:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
IIf this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.


It's not a "dream" it's just numbers. And just because something hasn't been done doesn't mean it isn't possible (if this was true evolution would not happen...or improvement lol)

Personally, I think that even if nullsec was hilariously overproducing highsec, that highsec production slots would still be more in demand and more profitable than nullsec ones.

Why? Better location. That was the main point I was making.

Nullsec production isn't bad because it isn't scalable. It isn't bad because it's too risky.

It's simply bad because you are producing far away from where your goods can be easily and fluently monetized in enormous volumes. It's that simple. You naturally want to be close to those locations when you produce.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#636 - 2014-01-14 01:29:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'd like to point something out to the people who are still claiming this can be done.

Nullsec doesn't avoid this because they're stubborn, or whatever. Goonswarm themselves turned into renters recently as necessity demanded. Nullsec as a whole does what it has to, to get the job done.

If this dream of yours were possible, someone would have done it by now.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Go do it yourself.

Get a little coalition/alliance going and ask the CFC, or N3, or whoever you feel like, to let you in with that intent. Otherwise you're theorycrafting and claiming it's fact, also known as spouting off.

No, it's known as educating the morons who stick their heads in the sand and insist it's impossible.
Because it is fact that the slots are quite creatable. Goonswarm depending on what type of outposts they have may already have the capacity they need for just their members (Assuming the stations are upgraded)

There are other reasons they choose not to (Such as,... till a year ago the slots couldn't be made, or lack desire to do capital investment into infrastructure), but that is a choice, not something they are forced to do.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#637 - 2014-01-14 01:56:48 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships.


This is basically what highsec stations are, a handout. You can't compete with free.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#638 - 2014-01-14 02:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
It's simply bad because you are producing far away from where your goods can be easily and fluently monetized in enormous volumes.


You're being very dense, or at the very least thinking like a carebear.

They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.

Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money.

Quote:
Nullsec production isn't bad because it isn't scalable. It isn't bad because it's too risky.


It would be bad if it were one of those things. It's bad because it's both.

They don't give 2 f***s about production of things to sell.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#639 - 2014-01-14 02:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
EI Digin wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

You shouldn't expect CCP to just wave a magic wand and give you free ships.


This is basically what highsec stations are, a handout. You can't compete with free.


But you can compete with "free."

Example 1:
You want to do t2 production. There are "free" copy/invent/ME/PE slots...But there is a problem. You have to wait for them and sit in line.

This costs time and reduces your efficiency. So instead, you decide to join a corp that has a POS, or anchor your own. Now you get slots whenever you want, of whatever type you want -- all conveniently in a singular location. The fuel pays for itself within a few day, and you chuckle at the thought of "free" lab slots.

How are they "free" when the opportunity cost for using them is super high?

Example 2:
You want to produce a whole crapload of cheap modules. Insane bulk. The difference in profit margin between producing it in a POS vs a station is negligable compared to the speed increase of making it in a POS.

Thus, you pay for the POS and spam the crap out of the module, making more isk per slot/hour than you could in a station. It pays for the fuel and profit above that.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It's simply bad because you are producing far away from where your goods can be easily and fluently monetized in enormous volumes.


You're being very dense, or at the very least thinking like a carebear.

They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.

Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money.

Quote:
Nullsec production isn't bad because it isn't scalable. It isn't bad because it's too risky.


It would be bad if it were one of those things. It's bad because it's both.

They don't give 2 fucks about production of things to sell.


Moot point. They CAN do this. If they choose not to,. despite the fact they have the tools open and available to them....then the fault is on them alone.

You can get the slots. You can ship in the compressed minerals from highsec, so you don't have to mine (**** mining). You can produce off of thousands of characters in just a handful of systems. This can literally be done if it's something your alliance/group finds exciting.

That's the reality of it.

Is it really all that surprising that given the sandbox of EVE and the nature of nullsec that the big coalitions are choosing to emphasize PvP over industry?

"Hey guys let's all stop shooting each other and just sit around and make stuff instead."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#640 - 2014-01-14 02:15:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They don't want it to sell it. They want it to use it.

Their end goal is supplies and war materials, not money.

But profit margins! Trade hubs! ISK/hour!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)