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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#581 - 2014-01-13 15:26:15 UTC
And would be met by another fist in the form of the Alliance protecting miners. Hey! PvP!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#582 - 2014-01-13 15:27:19 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
And would be met by another fist in the form of the Alliance protecting miners. Hey! PvP!


I can think of more easily defended bait if I want to bait out a fight.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#583 - 2014-01-13 15:35:15 UTC
The miners aren't there to be bait. They are there to help supply Nul with the ore it needs to produce goods of value to the Alliance and the universe at large. That PvP happens is (to a PvP enthusiast) is simply a bonus. It would also give the Alliance something else to do, which could drive recruitment.

This is all about trying to draw more people out of highsec. Unless it's more advantageous, people won't bother.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#584 - 2014-01-13 15:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The miners aren't there to be bait. They are there to help supply Nul with the ore it needs to produce goods of value to the Alliance and the universe at large. That PvP happens is (to a PvP enthusiast) is simply a bonus. It would also give the Alliance something else to do, which could drive recruitment.

This is all about trying to draw more people out of highsec. Unless it's more advantageous, people won't bother.


if the PvP is happening, then you're not making money.

See what I mean? One way or another, the job isn't getting done.

[Edit: Hell, under average circumstances, I can stop you from getting the job done with a stealth bomber.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#585 - 2014-01-13 15:56:13 UTC
Serrberus wrote:
Pretty tough for new players running around in T1 frigates getting popped by faction, and interceptors piloted by veterans with a massive SP advantage.


I would probably have quit in 15 minutes. I would have lost my ship, seen the price of a new one, declared the game P2W and quit.
Prince Kobol
#586 - 2014-01-13 16:16:27 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
The miners aren't there to be bait. They are there to help supply Nul with the ore it needs to produce goods of value to the Alliance and the universe at large. That PvP happens is (to a PvP enthusiast) is simply a bonus. It would also give the Alliance something else to do, which could drive recruitment.

This is all about trying to draw more people out of highsec. Unless it's more advantageous, people won't bother.



Bingo..

Unless it's more advantageous, people won't bother which is the situation we are in now, it is simply not worth it.

I have tried to get miners into null, it always ends the same way, very quickly they figure out that they can earn more isk in HS for a lot less effort ,aggravation and risk.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#587 - 2014-01-13 16:40:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
High sec is already nerfed. Consider:

You cannot build capitals
You cannot fly capitals (exception: a few legacy ships that are little more than for showing off)
You cannot claim sovereignty
You cannot build outposts
All lab slots in stations are booked up for a month
To shoot someone you got to deal with either the war dec mechanic or CONCORD
Missions do not pay as well
Incursions do not pay as well
PI does not pay as well
There are no L5 missions
There are no complexes above 4/10
There is no ore that produces Morphite or Megacyte. And Zydrene is quite rare.
There are no high end Ices to mine
There is little gas to mine and it all stinks
You cannot anchor a POS without grinding standings
There is no moon mining
You cannot run reactions
A data or relic site that produces more than a couple of million ISK worth is a Jackpot
There are no Officer drops
There are no faction drops for sizes above "Small"
SoE ships cost 50% more LP

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#588 - 2014-01-13 16:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Noxisia Arkana
Quote:

See, I don't buy the old line that everyone in high sec is getting ganked or dying to rats. I spend very little time up there these days, but I'm willing to wager there is still a good amount of straight-forward PvP going on up there in one form or another. The problem with this high sec PvP is that it is likely, for the most part, fragmented, blobish, poorly coordinated ***hattery. I don't know any high sec corps that take doctrines and fits and losses particularly seriously, and this leads to a culture of second-rate action and general fail.


I have a hard time believing that there is not plenty of ***hattery in the majority of space. You can be anywhere and suck at your job, the difference is in HS most fights aren't large scale.

So highsec corporations have a lax approach? I'm glad we cracked the code on that one. They don't have to maintain POS's (WH), or Soveriegnity (Null), nor do they exist for pure pew (Lowsec & FW). Highsec corps generally realize they are playing a game and either have limited time that they would like to 'enjoy' by playing a game or have unlimited time and enjoy the (artificial) security of highsec.

The nice thing about a HS corp is that they generally aren't going to ***** about you missing out on a fleet, or not having the skills to fit T2 Large rails. They don't want the full API check (because they don't have anything you can steal). You want to log on and quasi-afk mine while watching the superbowl? Go for it.

You want to get together and run around lowsec with a couple of fail fit frigs? Go for it. Let's stop pretending that Highsec is all about people who are risk adverse (and want that dope L4 mission money? It's not that great unless your an uber mach pilot) and raelize that it's also about people that don't want to be forced into sacrificing their privacy or get rebuked about something dumb while playing a game, that they happen to pay for.

Vincent Athena wrote:
High sec is already nerfed. Consider:
Stuff that I generally agree with.


Add to that the huge population of NPC corps because of the general experience many people have when they leave an NPC corp for the first time (awox, theft, war decs). edit: Also, there's no incentive to leave NPC corps in highsec. The only benefit Highsec corps offer their members is a corp chat that (hopefully) isn't full of horrible advice.
Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#589 - 2014-01-13 17:42:58 UTC
No Hisec = I quit..

Biomass all 12 characters with ALL ISK and Valuables....
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#590 - 2014-01-13 17:46:17 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
No Hisec = I quit..

Biomass all 12 characters with ALL ISK and Valuables....


Never not hold other people's gameplay hostage.

Oh, and no one is talking about "no highsec". They're talking about it being nerfed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#591 - 2014-01-13 17:46:20 UTC
no high sec , i resub 2 indy accounts , most ppl sell under cost price cause astroids are "free" , hard to compete with those afk retards

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#592 - 2014-01-13 18:51:55 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
baltec1 wrote:



Its not possible at all right now.

Why not? Are you saying Goon's couldn't make it happen? I though they were the biggest Alliance in Eve? Why couldn't it happen 'right now'?


Because the mechanics will not allow it.

We lack the slots and the costs make the end product cost more than just shipping the finished product from high sec.
Prince Kobol
#593 - 2014-01-13 19:03:44 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
High sec is already nerfed. Consider:

You cannot build capitals
You cannot fly capitals (exception: a few legacy ships that are little more than for showing off)
You cannot claim sovereignty
You cannot build outposts
All lab slots in stations are booked up for a month
To shoot someone you got to deal with either the war dec mechanic or CONCORD
Missions do not pay as well
Incursions do not pay as well
PI does not pay as well
There are no L5 missions
There are no complexes above 4/10
There is no ore that produces Morphite or Megacyte. And Zydrene is quite rare.
There are no high end Ices to mine
There is little gas to mine and it all stinks
You cannot anchor a POS without grinding standings
There is no moon mining
You cannot run reactions
A data or relic site that produces more than a couple of million ISK worth is a Jackpot
There are no Officer drops
There are no faction drops for sizes above "Small"
SoE ships cost 50% more LP


Yet HS is the best option for manufacturing / research / invention and having a relativity risk free good stable isk earning base.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#594 - 2014-01-13 19:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Prince Kobol wrote:
Yet HS is the best option for manufacturing / research / invention and having a relativity risk free good stable isk earning base.


has it occurred to you that a huge part of the reason for this is simply location?

highsec is centrally located.

logistically, it makes sense for a trade hub to be in the middle of the map. and from that, it follows that if you are trying to manufacture a lot of goods and move them, that you would try to do it near the middle of the map.

it's not like manufacturing is particularly risky, even in nullsec. it's something you do at a station primarily, with a POS to help with copy/invention slots. if you have sov - you probably don't even need a POS as outposts have a metric gazillion slots.

as far as moving goods around in nullsec - that's not risky either. if you lose a jump freighter it's because you are bad. (i'd also point out that jump frieghters cannot jump in highsec....it's much faster and easier to move goods in null than it is in highsec)

so yeah, people do manufacturing/research/invention in highsec, but it's not because highsec is "overpowered" - beyond the power of just being in the middle of the map.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#595 - 2014-01-13 19:54:29 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Yet HS is the best option for manufacturing / research / invention and having a relativity risk free good stable isk earning base.


has it occurred to you that a huge part of the reason for this is simply location?

highsec is centrally located.

logistically, it makes sense for a trade hub to be in the middle of the map. and from that, it follows that if you are trying to manufacture a lot of goods and move them, that you would try to do it near the middle of the map.

This has nothing to do with location. He's talking about industry, not trade hubs.

Pinky Hops wrote:
it's not like manufacturing is particularly risky, even in nullsec. it's something you do at a station primarily, with a POS to help with copy/invention slots. if you have sov - you probably don't even need a POS as outposts have a metric gazillion slots.

Nobody is complaining about risk, the issue is that we have to put in a ton of effort in order to make industry even somewhat decent.

Pinky Hops wrote:
so yeah, people do manufacturing/research/invention in highsec, but it's not because highsec is "overpowered" - beyond the power of just being in the middle of the map.

This is so ******* wrong it hurts.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#596 - 2014-01-13 19:59:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
logistically, it makes sense for a trade hub to be in the middle of the map. and from that, it follows that if you are trying to manufacture a lot of goods and move them, that you would try to do it near the middle of the map.

This has nothing to do with location. He's talking about industry, not trade hubs.


Yes, and we all know industry and trade have nothing in common.

They have so little in common in fact, that on my Industry alt I manufacture my goods 75 jumps away from where I buy the materials and sell the end result. Just because. Cool

Oh wait, that would be ********, so I don't do that. Instead, I manufacture close to the trade hubs to reduce the amount of time I spend doing industry.

Complex stuff.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Nobody is complaining about risk, the issue is that we have to put in a ton of effort in order to make industry even somewhat decent.


He specifically mentioned risk - which I quoted when I responded to him.
Prince Kobol
#597 - 2014-01-13 20:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Pinky Hops wrote:


He specifically mentioned risk - which I quoted when I responded to him.




Going to reply in regards to the risk.

When I say Industry, I am talking about all aspects of it, whether it be mining, manufacturing, copying, invention, PI, transporting whatever.

In HS there is very little risk involved in any of these aspects.

In regards to having a pos in HS, you get 24hrs when your war decced to pull it down, it is not going to be hit by caps ships and even if you do not bother to pull it down, all your BPO's (I hope) will be located in a NPC Station and are untouchable.

Unless you are war decced you can travel with little risk again when collecting your PI (if in HS) or mining your minerals or transporting your goods. If you are war decced you can always pay somebody like Red Frog to haul your stuff for you.

Every aspect of Industry is easier and has very little risk attached to it.

Now the issue I have is that as you move to low sec, WH and null, your isk earning potential does not scale with the increase in risk, time and effort required.

That is the issue at hand for me.

It should be, Time + Effort + Risk = More Isk

That is not the case with Industry outside of HS.

Any potential increase you might get is so out weighed by the increase in risk + time + effort it is not worth it.

I have said before that HS does need a nerf in regards to Industry along side with low and null getting a buff.

Now whether that is NPC stations getting a reduction in slots / manufacturing time / refining and player built stations getting a buff to all of these things or a combination I don't know but something needs to be changed.

I mean you could remove all null sec minerals from any type of loot so the only way to obtain it is to mine the ore in null but is using the stick which I hate.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#598 - 2014-01-13 21:33:11 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
logistically, it makes sense for a trade hub to be in the middle of the map. and from that, it follows that if you are trying to manufacture a lot of goods and move them, that you would try to do it near the middle of the map.

This has nothing to do with location. He's talking about industry, not trade hubs.


Yes, and we all know industry and trade have nothing in common.

They have so little in common in fact, that on my Industry alt I manufacture my goods 75 jumps away from where I buy the materials and sell the end result. Just because. Cool

Oh wait, that would be ********, so I don't do that. Instead, I manufacture close to the trade hubs to reduce the amount of time I spend doing industry.

Complex stuff.

This still has nothing to do with the fact that nullsec industrial facilities cannot be made anywhere near equivalent to highsec ones. The fact that the main trade hubs are in highsec has nothing to do with why nullsec industry is terrible. You're completely missing the point.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#599 - 2014-01-13 21:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
HS does not have enough slots. I know because I keep running out of them, and my HS industrial base is over a dozen jumps from Jita. There is not even a trade hub of any sort in my region.

As for risk, remember the OP asked what CCP was going to do. CCP controls game mechanics. Risk is not an inherent game mechanic, its a property produced by emergent behavior of the players. If the players decided to stop shooting in Null it would be totally risk free for industry without CCP doing a thing.

P.S. I do think Null needs to be able to build more slots. Mining in Null, hauling to high to build, then hauling back to Null just seems wrong.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Prince Kobol
#600 - 2014-01-13 21:55:20 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
HS does not have enough slots. I know because I keep running out of them, and my HS industrial base is over a dozen jumps from Jita. There is not even a trade hub of any sort in my region.

As for risk, remember the OP asked what CCP was going to do. CCP controls game mechanics. Risk is not an inherent game mechanic, its a property produced by emergent behavior of the players. If the players decided to stop shooting in Null it would be totally risk free for industry without CCP doing a thing.

P.S. I do think Null needs to be able to build more slots. Mining in Null, hauling to high to build, then hauling back to Null just seems wrong.


HS does have enough slots, you choose to operate in area that has very little to none available.

I have operated out of many HS systems over the years that are less then 10 jumps form the major trade I was using at thetime and never had any issues with manufacturing slots being full.

Yes research slot have been full but that is easily fixed by having a small pos with a few labs.

Try it null sec and see what happens.