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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Victor Andall
#561 - 2014-01-13 13:51:54 UTC
What other sources of raw ISK in game are there except for NPC Mission Rewards? What I mean to say is where does all the ISK enter the economic system from?

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#562 - 2014-01-13 13:57:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Psh.

Have you ever actually tried dealing with those freaking people? Believe me on this one, because I've been doing this since Ultima Online(although I was a lot better at it back then, that game was awesome).

But some people will always be little better than food. It's not the wolves who make them into sheep.


Translation: No I cba to actually DO something about whatever it is I am complaining about.


Oh? Well, since I'm sure you bothered to read what I was replying to, why don't you tell me your thoughts on the matter?

It rather elegantly highlights their hypocrisy.

Instead of organizing ops to mine the trit they claim to be short on, or properly recruiting low-end miners, you know, instead of scamming, killing and mocking them for being useless whiny 'pubbies' Roll, they themselves whine to CCP to have the game mechanics changed.

It could very well be that attempting to recruit hi sec miners is a difficult task. But you know what doesn't help? Their grief campaigns against them for cheap lulz (remember "jihadswarm"?). Ever heard of the saying "you reap what you sow"? They've made their bed, but now they don't want to lie on it. But in this game actions have consequences.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#563 - 2014-01-13 14:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ZynnLee Akkori
Kira Enomoto wrote:


With a large corp or alliance you should be able to field a mining fleet in low/null.

If you are willing to put the effort into it you can help the miners from HS to make the transition. Yes, it will require work, but it could even save you ISK since you mine directly to the corp instead of buying it in HS. The reduced cost could even pay for he protection of the fleet. From what I can tell, you should also have sufficient ship to launch a fair size fleet should they be attacked, which means you save even more money.

I guess that there are several solo miners in NPC corps who might be willing to join you. (Me being one of them.)

Instead of mocking the "carebears", help them make the transition.


This. I'm on record hating ganking in highsec. And being unintelligent, apparently. Roll But if I found a nullsec corp that had a system in place to provide protecting for miner and other industrialists, I would be out there. I KNOW I'm not alone. What do carebears like me like to do?! We like to sell stuff. I don't really care where I sell it, as long as the reward is equal to or greater than the asshattery needed to sell. Right now now and null sec asshattery is way overbalanced to the reward I would get for my time and effort. Ganking would still be a risk, but with a corp at my back, I would probably be a little safer that I am in highsec.

Selling/working in null, I could be a small fish in a small pond. In highsec I am a tiny fish in a vast ocean.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#564 - 2014-01-13 14:24:13 UTC
Quote:
But in this game actions have consequences.


Not really.

The miners sell their ore to... somebody, lol. I wonder if they really know who?

As for "wanting game mechanics changed", idk where that's actually being discussed. Most of what I've been hearing is that nullsec industry cannot compete because outposts can't match the refine and research capabilities of highsec.

Trit *might* be part of that, but I genuinely doubt it.

That's the thing, though.

It's genuinely easier to just buy things off the open market. It doesn't matter to nullsec players whether miners hate them or not. Because the miners truly don't matter to them one way or another.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#565 - 2014-01-13 14:25:49 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

It rather elegantly highlights their hypocrisy.

Instead of organizing ops to mine the trit they claim to be short on, or properly recruiting low-end miners, you know, instead of scamming, killing and mocking them for being useless whiny 'pubbies' Roll, they themselves whine to CCP to have the game mechanics changed.

It could very well be that attempting to recruit hi sec miners is a difficult task. But you know what doesn't help? Their grief campaigns against them for cheap lulz (remember "jihadswarm"?). Ever heard of the saying "you reap what you sow"? They've made their bed, but now they don't want to lie on it. But in this game actions have consequences.


I imagine that some of the large null/low corps and allianses would be able to field some rather large mining ops. They even have the added benefit of having some skilled PvP pilots defend them from ganks and rats.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#566 - 2014-01-13 14:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ZynnLee Akkori
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

Instead of organizing ops to mine the trit they claim to be short on, or properly recruiting low-end miners, you know, instead of scamming, killing and mocking them for being useless whiny 'pubbies' Roll, they themselves whine to CCP to have the game mechanics changed.

It could very well be that attempting to recruit hi sec miners is a difficult task. But you know what doesn't help? Their grief campaigns against them for cheap lulz (remember "jihadswarm"?). Ever heard of the saying "you reap what you sow"? They've made their bed, but now they don't want to lie on it. But in this game actions have consequences.

Deserves a repeat.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#567 - 2014-01-13 14:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
TharOkha wrote:

So yes. Some buffs are needed to outposts. But thats is only minor problem. Major problem why null industry sucks is on the shoulders of you alliance management, because they sucks in developing sustainable environment for null industry, and supply chains.


We would have to double our population with just miners to supply the amount of trit we would go through. We also would still have the trasport costs due to the distances involved and the fact that we can only put one outpost down per system. When you consider the cost of transporting billions of units of veldspar and trit around from hundreds of systems it works out to be cheaper to just get it from empire in compressed form.

Alliance management has nothing at all to do with the poor state of industry in null.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#568 - 2014-01-13 14:36:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
But in this game actions have consequences.


Not really.

The miners sell their ore to... somebody, lol. I wonder if they really know who?

As for "wanting game mechanics changed", idk where that's actually being discussed. Most of what I've been hearing is that nullsec industry cannot compete because outposts can't match the refine and research capabilities of highsec.

Trit *might* be part of that, but I genuinely doubt it.

That's the thing, though.

It's genuinely easier to just buy things off the open market. It doesn't matter to nullsec players whether miners hate them or not. Because the miners truly don't matter to them one way or another.



It does matter. You could (with a large investment) save possibly billions of ISK.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because the miners truly don't matter to them one way or another.


But this is really what it is all about, isn't it....? You do really don't give a flying F***.

Except oddly enough, you care enough to complain on the forums.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#569 - 2014-01-13 14:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
So, you're all saying that you think miners could be rehabilitated, brought into a nullsec alliance, guarded while they do their thing...

and then all the ore has to be shipped back to highsec anyway to be refined without losing enough to make it all pointless anyway.

And you think any nullsec alliance would go for this... why?

Quote:
But this is really what it is all about, isn't it....? You do really don't give a flying F***.

Except oddly enough, you care enough to complain on the forums.


I'm not a nullsec player, of course I don't give a flying ****. I'm just curious why you think you can really bring more to the table than combat pilots, especially because you would require combat pilots to babysit you while you do your thing.

I mean, if anything you would be a negative contribution.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Serrberus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#570 - 2014-01-13 14:49:21 UTC
Pretty tough for new players running around in T1 frigates getting popped by faction, and interceptors piloted by veterans with a massive SP advantage.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#571 - 2014-01-13 14:53:55 UTC
Suggesting that miners need to be 'rehabilitated' implies there is something wrong with them. You've already gotten off on the wrong foot. That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.

I've always thought it would be very cool to have a new trade hub in Eve, one situated in Null. It's completely possible. People like deals. People need stuff. People love to gets stuff they need at a deal. What if there were a half dozen or even a couple dozen industrialists based in Null, in a system cluster with a relatively straight shot into highsec? What if these industrialists were pumping out quality goods via the NPC stations in the area at prices lower than the otehr trade hubs? This would be a draw to those looking for great deals. What if there were buy orders at these stations paying more than what people could get in highsec? Another draw.

But even better, what if there was an Alliance that was willing to invest the effort to protect the route into Highsec, and offer some protection to the industrialists as they go about their work? This Alliance would make bank on taxes, rent, and if they were smart, special discounts on the good produced by the industrialists. How cool would it be to see a titan protecting certain sections of the route into and out of this new trade hub?!

At a certain point, inertia would take over and the process could be sustained. Pirates would be punished for preying on those travelling to and from this new hub by the people invested in the trade hub's success. More and more highsec people would be tempted to move out to take advantage of the good deals and unique opportunities in Null. There would be wardec's popping all over as this or that group tries to take over the cash cow trade hub.

It's completely possible. Not easy, but possible.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#572 - 2014-01-13 14:57:23 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Suggesting that miners need to be 'rehabilitated' implies there is something wrong with them. You've already gotten off on the wrong foot. That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.

I've always thought it would be very cool to have a new trade hub in Eve, one situated in Null. It's completely possible. People like deals. People need stuff. People love to gets stuff they need at a deal. What if there were a half dozen or even a couple dozen industrialists based in Null, in a system cluster with a relatively straight shot into highsec? What if these industrialists were pumping out quality goods via the NPC stations in the area at prices lower than the otehr trade hubs? This would be a draw to those looking for great deals. What if there were buy orders at these stations paying more than what people could get in highsec? Another draw.

But even better, what if there was an Alliance that was willing to invest the effort to protect the route into Highsec, and offer some protection to the industrialists as they go about their work? This Alliance would make bank on taxes, rent, and if they were smart, special discounts on the good produced by the industrialists. How cool would it be to see a titan protecting certain sections of the route into and out of this new trade hub?!

At a certain point, inertia would take over and the process could be sustained. Pirates would be punished for preying on those travelling to and from this new hub by the people invested in the trade hub's success. More and more highsec people would be tempted to move out to take advantage of the good deals and unique opportunities in Null. There would be wardec's popping all over as this or that group tries to take over the cash cow trade hub.

It's completely possible. Not easy, but possible.



Its not possible at all right now.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#573 - 2014-01-13 15:00:17 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Suggesting that miners need to be 'rehabilitated' implies there is something wrong with them. You've already gotten off on the wrong foot. That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.

I've always thought it would be very cool to have a new trade hub in Eve, one situated in Null. It's completely possible. People like deals. People need stuff. People love to gets stuff they need at a deal. What if there were a half dozen or even a couple dozen industrialists based in Null, in a system cluster with a relatively straight shot into highsec? What if these industrialists were pumping out quality goods via the NPC stations in the area at prices lower than the otehr trade hubs? This would be a draw to those looking for great deals. What if there were buy orders at these stations paying more than what people could get in highsec? Another draw.

But even better, what if there was an Alliance that was willing to invest the effort to protect the route into Highsec, and offer some protection to the industrialists as they go about their work? This Alliance would make bank on taxes, rent, and if they were smart, special discounts on the good produced by the industrialists. How cool would it be to see a titan protecting certain sections of the route into and out of this new trade hub?!

At a certain point, inertia would take over and the process could be sustained. Pirates would be punished for preying on those travelling to and from this new hub by the people invested in the trade hub's success. More and more highsec people would be tempted to move out to take advantage of the good deals and unique opportunities in Null. There would be wardec's popping all over as this or that group tries to take over the cash cow trade hub.

It's completely possible. Not easy, but possible.


This, would make me move there as fast as possible. Both as an industrialist and as protection.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#574 - 2014-01-13 15:01:45 UTC
Quote:
That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.


You keep saying that, but I really don't think you've thought it through.

Even if they got the minerals in nullsec, they still have to be transported back, refined, made into something, then the something is brought back to nullsec.

And you're trying to tell me that is *easier* than just saying screw it, and buying the stuff up front? I mean, the big alliances already have procurement divisions and such. They already have people dedicated to getting the stuff they need.

What do you actually offer?

Like I said, you can't say "save money", because of the huge opportunity cost of both protecting you, and of transporting your product back to highsec to be refined.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#575 - 2014-01-13 15:02:13 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
What other sources of raw ISK in game are there except for NPC Mission Rewards? What I mean to say is where does all the ISK enter the economic system from?


Incursions, Insurance, Rat bounties, Sales to NPC buy orders are ways of creating ISK out of thin air.
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#576 - 2014-01-13 15:03:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:



Its not possible at all right now.

Why not? Are you saying Goon's couldn't make it happen? I though they were the biggest Alliance in Eve? Why couldn't it happen 'right now'?
ZynnLee Akkori
Perkone
Caldari State
#577 - 2014-01-13 15:06:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.


You keep saying that, but I really don't think you've thought it through.

Even if they got the minerals in nullsec, they still have to be transported back, refined, made into something, then the something is brought back to nullsec.

And you're trying to tell me that is *easier* than just saying screw it, and buying the stuff up front? I mean, the big alliances already have procurement divisions and such. They already have people dedicated to getting the stuff they need.

What do you actually offer?

Like I said, you can't say "save money", because of the huge opportunity cost of both protecting you, and of transporting your product back to highsec to be refined.

My understanding of the refining issue (and I agree with the rest who say this should be buffed for Null) is that it's not "as efficient" to refine in Null. With Alliance protection, in many ways, miners would be *more* likely to survive than in highsec. Gankers don't look for fair fights, and knowing there is a squad of fighters only a few seconds away will deter almost all gankers.
What this means is that miners can start to bring out their 'big guns' and mine the crap outta asteroids in Null.

It would be cheaper to mine an extra 10% ore in Null than to try to import it.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2014-01-13 15:14:00 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
baltec1 wrote:



Its not possible at all right now.

Why not? Are you saying Goon's couldn't make it happen? I though they were the biggest Alliance in Eve? Why couldn't it happen 'right now'?
Besides them beeing buzzy with their war and all, it's probably also a logistical nightmare and not profitable at all.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Tebizla
#579 - 2014-01-13 15:15:07 UTC
"What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?"

Chaos, bitter sweet tears, threadnaughts, smugging, chestbeating and so on and so on ...

Obviously not a forum / spy / market alt ...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#580 - 2014-01-13 15:20:43 UTC
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
That being said, Aliances should go for it because of the significant savings they would realize. Not just ISK either, but time.


You keep saying that, but I really don't think you've thought it through.

Even if they got the minerals in nullsec, they still have to be transported back, refined, made into something, then the something is brought back to nullsec.

And you're trying to tell me that is *easier* than just saying screw it, and buying the stuff up front? I mean, the big alliances already have procurement divisions and such. They already have people dedicated to getting the stuff they need.

What do you actually offer?

Like I said, you can't say "save money", because of the huge opportunity cost of both protecting you, and of transporting your product back to highsec to be refined.

My understanding of the refining issue (and I agree with the rest who say this should be buffed for Null) is that it's not "as efficient" to refine in Null. With Alliance protection, in many ways, miners would be *more* likely to survive than in highsec. Gankers don't look for fair fights, and knowing there is a squad of fighters only a few seconds away will deter almost all gankers.
What this means is that miners can start to bring out their 'big guns' and mine the crap outta asteroids in Null.

It would be cheaper to mine an extra 10% ore in Null than to try to import it.


Uh... what?

See, your carebear is showing. "gankers don't look for fair fights", and all the rest of that propaganda.

The intel channels would be lighting up like Christmas trees for people out there with the "big guns" for mining. The proverbial "they" would fall on you like the fist of God.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.