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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Pipa Porto
#541 - 2014-01-13 01:55:18 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
However forcing them to PvP is not likely to encourage more than the occasional person to stay longer.


Good thing nobody's suggesting anything of the sort.

The problem that needs solving is the fact that people who live in nullsec have no incentive to make their ISK where they live, because they can make more ISK for less risk and effort in HS.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2014-01-13 02:06:54 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
However forcing them to PvP is not likely to encourage more than the occasional person to stay longer.


Good thing nobody's suggesting anything of the sort.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I want to introduce more risk into their lives.

Make wardecs generate killrights on anyone who leaves corp during a war. That'll do for starters.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#543 - 2014-01-13 02:25:55 UTC
Don't join a player run corporation and eat the tax rate if you can't handle the chance of being wardecced.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#544 - 2014-01-13 02:36:11 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
Competing games will get a hundred of thousands new players.


Well that's not really true is it? Seeing as a lot of accounts are just alts. I personally know someone with 11 alt accounts making a total of 12 for just ONE person.

What kind of nerf could possibly be introduced to highsec? POCOs in high was made as a way to get people interested in pvping in highsec for territory... from what I've seen though the same groups of organised pirates or whatever went in and stomped everything and took it all for themselves. The same people are benefitting from these changes as they were before and still there is no incentive for highsec people to group together and do something meaningful.

I suggest everyone read the minutes again - carefully this time - this kind of topic is discussed. By hamstringing highsec players that aren't already involved in pvp you accelerate their rate of decline.

In my mind if you want to nerf highsec: cut the number of highsec systems to 80. That's 20 systems per empire, take all ex-HS systems and make them lowsec. Null is a huge wasteland already so it can just stay stagnant. Noone cares anyway.

Lowsec contains 8% of the game population and accounts for 24% of all kills in the universe. Giving a bit more room and fewer ******** chokepoints should be considered. If you want people to play in the sandbox might I recommend not throwing sand in their eyes before they climb in?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#545 - 2014-01-13 03:13:17 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
However forcing them to PvP is not likely to encourage more than the occasional person to stay longer.


Good thing nobody's suggesting anything of the sort.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I want to introduce more risk into their lives.

Make wardecs generate killrights on anyone who leaves corp during a war. That'll do for starters.



I said "introduce more risk", not "force to them fight".

It's quite simple. If you don't want to deal with war, you flat out don't belong in a player corp. My suggestion wouldn't really change anything for a lot of people, it just reinforces what's already there.

But it would make player corps actually mean something. This could be implemented alongside some changes that encourage player corps in highsec to actually take an interest in their corp, to have assets, to have a reason to actually have a player corp besides a different banner.

Because there's no denying that aside from a corp hangar, a lot of highsec corps don't really have much reason to exist. I say we give them one, and something to defend while they're at it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#546 - 2014-01-13 08:12:01 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Lipbite wrote:
Competing games will get a hundred of thousands new players.


Well that's not really true is it? Seeing as a lot of accounts are just alts. I personally know someone with 11 alt accounts making a total of 12 for just ONE person.

What kind of nerf could possibly be introduced to highsec? POCOs in high was made as a way to get people interested in pvping in highsec for territory... from what I've seen though the same groups of organised pirates or whatever went in and stomped everything and took it all for themselves. The same people are benefitting from these changes as they were before and still there is no incentive for highsec people to group together and do something meaningful.

I suggest everyone read the minutes again - carefully this time - this kind of topic is discussed. By hamstringing highsec players that aren't already involved in pvp you accelerate their rate of decline.

In my mind if you want to nerf highsec: cut the number of highsec systems to 80. That's 20 systems per empire, take all ex-HS systems and make them lowsec. Null is a huge wasteland already so it can just stay stagnant. Noone cares anyway.

Lowsec contains 8% of the game population and accounts for 24% of all kills in the universe. Giving a bit more room and fewer ******** chokepoints should be considered. If you want people to play in the sandbox might I recommend not throwing sand in their eyes before they climb in?


Your plan is one that WOULD drive players from the game.


What we want is to get several areas balanced so that null sec, low sec and WH are viable options to everyone. No nerf to high sec rewards has ever resulted in people quitting the game.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#547 - 2014-01-13 08:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Pipa Porto wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
Hire more miners. Give them reason to live there, buy minerals from them, protect them. Then you will have plenty of minerals (with price tag and quantity as good as in hisec, even maybe better). Then you can start mass industry in null.


I'm going to wager, if you did the maths, it'd be cheaper to import from high sec than to bother protecting miners who contribute nothing but mineral sell orders.


Protecting them isn't an issue.

Its the fact that the industry part would still work out as more expensive than just importing directly from Jita.


May i ask why?


Trit. Among so many other reasons.


So there are no veldspar roids in null?
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#548 - 2014-01-13 08:22:32 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Hello.

My prediction: Suddenly EVE becomes much more fun, and a better game in general.

Bots are no longer worthwhile as they make easy targets for PvPers.
The EVE economy becomes dominated by intelligent humans, not machines or "bot aspirant" grinders.

Due to the rapid deflation of the market, low and nullsec players find it much easier to use ingame methods to make ISK
(as their main competition, the botting/multiboxing afk/semi afk hisec players' advantage has been nullified.)

Solo and small gang pvp can now be found in abundance as there are targets and organisations of varying sizes everywhere.

Politics and the metagame get a lot deeper as even PvE focused gamers would have to consider how other players affect their gameplay.


What are your thoughts on what would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

Edit:

Hold on a minute guys, I'm getting a lot of replies about how the hisec PvE population will quit.

To me, this doesn't make much sense. There are many other games with a much more focused, sophisticated PVE experience.

Why would many PvE gamers play a game that doesn't have much PvE content?



I think February should be nerf highsec month. Its shorter and would be a fun experiment.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Josef Djugashvilis
#549 - 2014-01-13 08:31:03 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Can't seem to have a civil discourse?

Can't you have an intelligent one?


Why are very young people so obsessed with 'intelligence'?

Once you are about 25 or so, you will realize that being a 'nice' person is far more important.

This is not a signature.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#550 - 2014-01-13 08:37:56 UTC
TharOkha wrote:


So there are no veldspar roids in null?


Its a question of scale. We can supply the high ends just fine but we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends, these need to be imported. When we add the cost of importing low ends along with the costs of transporting our minerals to a refinery(which is worse than high sec) then to a production outpost or POS costs and then transport the product to the market we end up with much higher costs. And this is before we add on the costs of the outposts, system upgrades and POS.

High sec has near zero costs so they will always beat null, low and WH industry on price which is why we simply import everything we need from high sec, its cheaper.
Diamond Zerg
Taking Solo Away.
#551 - 2014-01-13 10:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamond Zerg
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
ZynnLee Akkori wrote:
Can't seem to have a civil discourse?

Can't you have an intelligent one?


Why are very young people so obsessed with 'intelligence'?

Once you are about 25 or so, you will realize that being a 'nice' person is far more important.



They're both important, but I wouldn't say being nice is more so.
Unless the lack of said entity's niceness lead to the destruction of intelligence, but then we're still considering the preservation and cultivation of intelligence (and of course other things like knowledge) the primary goals.

Intelligence is darn interesting, I'd say it's worth an enormous amount.

In fact, it may be one of the most important things in the universe.
Hi.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#552 - 2014-01-13 11:04:33 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
They're both important, but I wouldn't say being nice is more so.
Unless the lack of said entity's niceness lead to the destruction of intelligence, but then we're still considering the preservation and cultivation of intelligence (and of course other things like knowledge) the primary goals.

Intelligence is darn interesting, I'd say it's worth an enormous amount.

In fact, it may be one of the most important things in the universe.



But be serious man! You can not just nerf niceness without also buffing intelligence!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

TharOkha
0asis Group
#553 - 2014-01-13 11:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:


So there are no veldspar roids in null?


Its a question of scale. We can supply the high ends just fine but we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends, these need to be imported.


But thats your internal problems in alliance. You cannot blame hisec that it has superior market (both in quantity and quality) while your stations are locked to neutrals or that you don't have enough miners in ali to supply you.

There are some solutions for this, like to allow renters to dock in some of your local trade outposts so they can supply you with minerals. (reduce or remove rental bills under the condition that they will mine XY tritanium per month and deliver it to your trade hub). Price of the trit would only depend on how many miner renters would you hire. More miner renters, more trit in your local market=cheap minerals. That´s the beauty of EVE, you can outsource almost anything.

But blaming and calling for nerf hisec just because your ali leaders doesnt have this covered? WTF man?!

Quote:
When we add the cost of importing low ends along with the costs of transporting our minerals to a refinery (which is worse than high sec) then to a production outpost or POS costs and then transport the product to the market we end up with much higher costs.


Yes, outposts should have 100% efficient refine. It also needs more manufacturing slots so they should be as good or better than hisec stations. This buff is needed. i support this idea

And it seems that you are trying to do industry with too wide production line. Make it narrow. Everything else..outsource. i bet that you are not the only one industrialist in ali. One can do one thing, the other one, another thing. Cooperate, make cartel..

Quote:
And this is before we add on the costs of the outposts, system upgrades....


Please dont mix alliance expenses with your personal expenses. Those named expenses should be covered by your alliance tax and rental income. If not, blame your ali top management.

Quote:

High sec has near zero costs so they will always beat null, low and WH industry on price which is why we simply import everything we need from high sec, its cheaper.


Well, if you want to manufacture such basic goods like T1 battle ships then its true. But this is not problem of game mechanics but problem of your common sense.

Again. You are trying to do something in null what is absolutely unprofitable no mater how do you nerf hisec. Making basic industry in nullsec is like trying to make cars in Antarctica and complete it with production costs in China.

But there are other industry activities in null that cannot be done in hisec. For example supercapital construction or advanced POS T2 industry. You ali management is making a big mistake that moongoo is transporting directly to Jita.

They should sell some small part of it it to your local market to support local industrialist like you (also that would mean cheaper moon goo for you because "minus" transportation costs to jita). So you could manufacture advanced T2 materials like Titanium carbide etc.. Something that cannot be done in hisec. This would support local ali industrialists and also it would motivate ali industrialists to stay in null. Such steps would make development friendly environment in null.

So yes. Some buffs are needed to outposts. But thats is only minor problem. Major problem why null industry sucks is on the shoulders of you alliance management, because they sucks in developing sustainable environment for null industry, and supply chains.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#554 - 2014-01-13 11:29:28 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Diamond Zerg wrote:
They're both important, but I wouldn't say being nice is more so.
Unless the lack of said entity's niceness lead to the destruction of intelligence, but then we're still considering the preservation and cultivation of intelligence (and of course other things like knowledge) the primary goals.

Intelligence is darn interesting, I'd say it's worth an enormous amount.

In fact, it may be one of the most important things in the universe.



But be serious man! You can not just nerf niceness without also buffing intelligence!


The result equals me. Social and Niceness at level 1 but Intelligece at level 5. (I have Aspergers Big smile)
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#555 - 2014-01-13 12:05:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:


So there are no veldspar roids in null?


Its a question of scale. We can supply the high ends just fine but we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends, these need to be imported.

Instead of suicide-ganking and scamming them, have you considered recruiting the very hi sec miners you target? Perhaps we have found a use for these 'pubbies' in your game?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#556 - 2014-01-13 12:18:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its a question of scale.
some of the mid high end ores were revised to refine into significant volumes of trit and pyer. that patch echoed the sentiment of mynnna. guess mynnna was wasting time with that direction?

baltec1 wrote:
we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends
what an unusual statement coming from a player belonging to a 10k player alliance and 40k player coalition. you can ping hundreds of pilots to form for a combat fleet but not an industrial op? shall I point out that rorq boosts outweigh orca boosts by a significant factor? what numbers are needed?

baltec1 wrote:
And this is before we add on the costs of the outposts, system upgrades and POS.
but you can shrug the loss of a gallente outpost, but effort into an industrial section is a foreign language. not to mention the, what is it these days, naglfar for everybody.

baltec1 wrote:
High sec has near zero costs
well you could do industry for 12 months and see if that statement bears revision there after.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#557 - 2014-01-13 12:49:45 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:


So there are no veldspar roids in null?


Its a question of scale. We can supply the high ends just fine but we dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends, these need to be imported.

Instead of suicide-ganking and scamming them, have you considered recruiting the very hi sec miners you target? Perhaps we have found a use for these 'pubbies' in your game?


Psh.

Have you ever actually tried dealing with those freaking people? Believe me on this one, because I've been doing this since Ultima Online(although I was a lot better at it back then, that game was awesome).

But some people will always be little better than food. It's not the wolves who make them into sheep.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#558 - 2014-01-13 13:04:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Psh.

Have you ever actually tried dealing with those freaking people? Believe me on this one, because I've been doing this since Ultima Online(although I was a lot better at it back then, that game was awesome).

But some people will always be little better than food. It's not the wolves who make them into sheep.


Translation: No I cba to actually DO something about whatever it is I am complaining about.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#559 - 2014-01-13 13:12:10 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Psh.

Have you ever actually tried dealing with those freaking people? Believe me on this one, because I've been doing this since Ultima Online(although I was a lot better at it back then, that game was awesome).

But some people will always be little better than food. It's not the wolves who make them into sheep.


Translation: No I cba to actually DO something about whatever it is I am complaining about.


Oh? Well, since I'm sure you bothered to read what I was replying to, why don't you tell me your thoughts on the matter?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#560 - 2014-01-13 13:33:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Psh.

Have you ever actually tried dealing with those freaking people? Believe me on this one, because I've been doing this since Ultima Online(although I was a lot better at it back then, that game was awesome).

But some people will always be little better than food. It's not the wolves who make them into sheep.


Translation: No I cba to actually DO something about whatever it is I am complaining about.


Oh? Well, since I'm sure you bothered to read what I was replying to, why don't you tell me your thoughts on the matter?



With a large corp or alliance you should be able to field a mining fleet in low/null.

If you are willing to put the effort into it you can help the miners from HS to make the transition. Yes, it will require work, but it could even save you ISK since you mine directly to the corp instead of buying it in HS. The reduced cost could even pay for he protection of the fleet. From what I can tell, you should also have sufficient ship to launch a fair size fleet should they be attacked, which means you save even more money.

I guess that there are several solo miners in NPC corps who might be willing to join you. (Me being one of them.)

Instead of mocking the "carebears", help them make the transition.