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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#401 - 2014-01-12 10:14:24 UTC
blabla4711 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

They are out here for more reasons than isk and some do think that you earn more in null.

Tell me, if null earns people more why do 80% of bots live in high sec?


Aaand another one .... prove your fairy tales before your demand proves from others.


Ruby Porto had posted that statistic from CCP multiple times in this thread. You should go back and read it. Though I would say they operate in HS not live in HS.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
TharOkha
0asis Group
#402 - 2014-01-12 10:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:


Then i wonder why nullsec renting programs are so popular. Why all those hisec carebears are willing to pay billions per shaitty systems and willing to move to null instead of staying in hisec.

Why nullsec renting programs generating hundreds of billions isk to large coalitions?

This pure facts simply negate your biased claims that nullsec sucks.


They are out here for more reasons than isk and some do think that you earn more in null.

Tell me, if null earns people more why do 80% of bots live in high sec?


What have hisec bots to do with this discussion? Big smile Please don't digress from the subject and tell me why is (not just) cfc still in null if nullsec sucks so bad as you say.?

Why all of you simply don't abandon this gold mine called renting program or moon goo and move to hisec so you could do this superior hisec industry?

Your problem is that you are focusing only on what is better in hisec than null, while you clearly overlooks isk opportunities in null. This tactic is called cherry-picking of facts. Some activities are better in hisec, some are better in null. Deal with it. And its only your greedy attitude and wants it all. You want absolutely everything that is better than in null for yourself.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#403 - 2014-01-12 10:15:41 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They have, many times in many of these threads over the years. Tell me, why should they be forced to export their resources, to build their things in empire and then export them back for use?


Perhaps then I am not looking hard enough. Citation please. Can you please point me to the thread where Bobspace residents toss out upwards of a hundred pages of complaints referencing the impossibility of them to compete with high sec. And when we're discussing "competing" are we talking about relative ISK gained based on risk or are we talking the static number of possible production/research slots?

Based on my limited knowledge, these wormhole guys are making out just fine. Additionally, their relative ISK gain based on their risk is very competitive.

Of course, they also don't have to deal with drone assist, supercapital, subcap blob asshattery. But isn't that part of the reason that NS residents LIVE in NS? To be a part of that "real" Eve?

You made a choice, you get the play the "real" game you wanted to play. Damn those consequences!


I don't have to, we can simply use maths to see that it is impossible for them to compete with high sec due to the higher costs.

And no, when it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do it is not a consequence it is a massive game imbalance.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#404 - 2014-01-12 10:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
TharOkha wrote:


What have hisec bots to do with this discussion? Big smile Please don't digress from the subject and tell me why is (not just) cfc still in null if nullsec sucks so bad as you say.?


Then dont bring up renters. Please answer the question, why did the vast bulk of bots move to empire space if null is better?
TharOkha wrote:
Why all of you simply don't abandon this gold mine called renting program or moon goo and move to hisec so you could do this superior hisec industry?


Everyone already does this, hence the problem.

TharOkha wrote:
Your problem is that you are focusing only on what is better in hisec than null, while you clearly overlooks isk opportunities in null. This tactic is called cherry-picking of facts. Some activities are better in hisec, some are better in null. And your greedy attitude wants it all. You want absolutely everything that is better than in null for yourself.


Tell us more about how all industry players should be barred from the vast bulk of EVE.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#405 - 2014-01-12 10:25:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
baltec1 wrote:
I don't have to, we can simply use maths to see that it is impossible for them to compete with high sec due to the higher costs.


And yet they do or they do enough not to spend all day typing about how the game imbalance is shitting all over them.

baltec1 wrote:
And no, when it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do it is not a consequence it is a massive game imbalance.


Then please, please, please tell me why you do?

What you're saying, if I am not misreading you here, is that it is impossible to live in NS -- COMPARED TO HS. That being the case I still do not understand WHY you choose to live there. Your claim is that no matter what you do in NS it will never EVER be as good as HS. Of course, it won't. It's ******* NS. It's supposed to be more challenging than the HS Carebear Risk Averse Kingdom of CONCORD. You moved to NS for the challenge but now find that you aren't up for it? I don't get it.

Hell come on up to HS - we have indoor plumbing and ****!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#406 - 2014-01-12 10:32:07 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I don't have to, we can simply use maths to see that it is impossible for them to compete with high sec due to the higher costs.


And yet they do or they do enough not to spend all day typing about how the game imbalance is shitting all over them.

baltec1 wrote:
And no, when it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do it is not a consequence it is a massive game imbalance.


Then please, please, please tell me why you do?

What you're saying, if I am not misreading you here, is that it is impossible to live in NS -- COMPARED TO HS. That being the case I still do not understand WHY you choose to live there. Your claim is that no matter what you do in NS it will never EVER be as good as HS. Of course, it won't. It's ******* NS. It's supposed to be more challenging than the HS Carebear Risk Averse Kingdom of CONCORD. You moved to NS for the challenge but now find that you aren't up for it? I don't get it.

Hell come on up to HS - we have indoor plumbing and ****!


The costs are much higher for null sec and WH industry which means that high sec will always produce cheaper goods that will undercut null sec industry.

There is no way around this, not only do we lack the slots but we cant even match the high sec prices.
blabla4711
Doomheim
#407 - 2014-01-12 10:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: blabla4711
Kimmi Chan wrote:
blabla4711 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

They are out here for more reasons than isk and some do think that you earn more in null.

Tell me, if null earns people more why do 80% of bots live in high sec?


Aaand another one .... prove your fairy tales before your demand proves from others.


Ruby Porto had posted that statistic from CCP multiple times in this thread. You should go back and read it. Though I would say they operate in HS not live in HS.



Ok, you got me a little on this one because baltec1 never proves anything and babbles without end. And this proof came from another poster.

But now we put this "80% of all bots" percentage into the "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec" scheme and it says ..... exactly ... nothing. Statistics just say what you want to see. The most botting activity is where most people live? surprise, surprise.

And this wasnt to the only point mentioned. Blink
Dave Stark
#408 - 2014-01-12 10:38:48 UTC
blabla4711 wrote:
But now we put this "80% of all bots" percentage into the "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec" scheme and it says ..... exactly ... nothing. Statistics just say what you want to see.



you mean, the fact that most people, and bots, operate outside of null sec, means nothing? are you sure.

because that shows, quite clearly, that the density of players in high sec is greater than that of null sec. although, that's quite easily observable by most high sec systems being relatively populated vs completely empty systems in null sec.

just because you choose to ignore the information, doesn't mean it doesn't tell us anything. value of the statistic in relation to the topic is still debatable, however.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#409 - 2014-01-12 10:41:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The costs are much higher for null sec and WH industry which means that high sec will always produce cheaper goods that will undercut null sec industry.

There is no way around this, not only do we lack the slots but we cant even match the high sec prices.


You say, "The costs are much higher". What costs?

Production costs? -- Then just do your production in HS.
Logistics costs? -- Do your production where those selling materials and those buying finished goods are - in HS
Capital Investment costs? -- This is a choice.

What you're asking for is a separate shard. You want to be able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again?

It's no different that these whackjob highsec wingnuts begging CCP for a perfectly safe HS.

No capsuleer lives in a bubble (figuratively speaking). There is, and always should be, interaction between all players in all levels of security.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pipa Porto
#410 - 2014-01-12 10:42:23 UTC
blabla4711 wrote:
But now we put this "80% of all bots" percentage into the "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec" scheme and it says ..... exactly ... nothing. Statistics just say what you want to see. The most botting activity is where most people live? surprise, surprise.

And this wasnt to the only point mentioned. Blink


You keep claiming that "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec." I (and probably CCP) would love to see how you got this information.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
TharOkha
0asis Group
#411 - 2014-01-12 10:43:55 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
baltec1 wrote:
TharOkha wrote:


What have hisec bots to do with this discussion? Big smile Please don't digress from the subject and tell me why is (not just) cfc still in null if nullsec sucks so bad as you say.?


Then dont bring up renters. Please answer the question, why did the vast bulk of bots move to empire space if null is better?


LOL you clearly crashed into the wall with this disscusion and you dont have any facts on this subject. While rental program is perfectly legal you want to discuss something that is illegal (bots) .

Why not to mention rental program? Rental progams generating hundreds of billions for sovnull. Something that cannot be done in hisec. It pays for all your fancy supers (which cannot be manufactured in hisec also)

TharOkha wrote:
Why all of you simply don't abandon this gold mine called renting program or moon goo and move to hisec so you could do this superior hisec industry?


Everyone already does this, hence the problem. [/quote]

And yet you are still member of null ali. Maybe if sovnull suck so bad you would move to hisec permanently.

TharOkha wrote:
Your problem is that you are focusing only on what is better in hisec than null, while you clearly overlooks isk opportunities in null. This tactic is called cherry-picking of facts. Some activities are better in hisec, some are better in null. And your greedy attitude wants it all. You want absolutely everything that is better than in null for yourself.


Tell us more about how all industry players should be barred from the vast bulk of EVE.[/quote]

Tell me more about how all best isk opportunities should be only in one type of space (sov-null).
Quote:

The costs are much higher for null sec and WH industry which means that high sec will always produce cheaper goods that will undercut null sec industry.

There is no way around this, not only do we lack the slots but we cant even match the high sec prices.


Of course it is much more expensive to do industry in null. Because you are too far away from well supplied main tradehubs of eve.

This is similar as complaining that it is ineffective to produce cars in Antarctica compared to China for example. And you are calling "lets sanction China, because we cannot complete with their production costs"

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Pipa Porto
#412 - 2014-01-12 10:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Production costs? -- Then just do your production in HS.
Logistics costs? -- Do your production where those selling materials and those buying finished goods are - in HS
Capital Investment costs? -- This is a choice.


That's what nullsec players who want to do industry do. That's the problem. Glad you finally figured out what we've been saying for 20 pages.

Quote:
What you're asking for is a separate shard. You want to be able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again?


Nope. We want to be able to not be punished for wanting to make our ISK where we live.

Quote and Link to where anyone in this thread asked to be "able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again." Or stop making **** up.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#413 - 2014-01-12 10:46:52 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


You say, "The costs are much higher". What costs?

Production costs? -- Then just do your production in HS.
Logistics costs? -- Do your production where those selling materials and those buying finished goods are - in HS
Capital Investment costs? -- This is a choice.

What you're asking for is a separate shard. You want to be able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again?

It's no different that these whackjob highsec wingnuts begging CCP for a perfectly safe HS.

No capsuleer lives in a bubble (figuratively speaking). There is, and always should be, interaction between all players in all levels of security.


What I am asking for is balance. High sec industry has near zero costs on both production and transport while null sec has much higher costs in both transport and production. This means it is simply cheaper to buy the finished product in jita and just ship it out to null.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#414 - 2014-01-12 10:59:53 UTC
High Sec has transport costs to. Nearly all high end minerals & all T2 materials are shipped in, it doesn't matter if the cost is paid via a mark up on the goods or not. The cost is still there and is passed on.

Now, what I'm curious about is what these 'higher costs' Null pays. Other than Capital investments which you can't assign entirely to industry as the capital investment is put in for mainly other reasons.
Do the lines somehow cost more than high sec per hour?
What are these actual costs.

Rather than the mythical 'shipping costs' which only apply to null sec imports but not null sec exports.
Eryn Velasquez
#415 - 2014-01-12 11:02:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Tell me, if null earns people more why do 80% of bots live in high sec?


Big smile If 89% of playerbase lives in hisec, but only 80% of the bots, what is the conclusion?

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
blabla4711
Doomheim
#416 - 2014-01-12 11:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: blabla4711
Pipa Porto wrote:
blabla4711 wrote:
But now we put this "80% of all bots" percentage into the "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec" scheme and it says ..... exactly ... nothing. Statistics just say what you want to see. The most botting activity is where most people live? surprise, surprise.

And this wasnt to the only point mentioned. Blink


You keep claiming that "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec." I (and probably CCP) would love to see how you got this information.



http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf said 11% Nullsec. CCP wouldnt be surprised by this number i guess. They provided it.

But i admit that i forgot the low/wh numbers and just tallied up. search and replace 89 with 80%.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#417 - 2014-01-12 11:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pipa Porto wrote:
Quote and Link to where anyone in this thread asked to be "able to completely cut yourself off from Empire and never have to set foot there again." Or stop making **** up.


Pipa Porto wrote:
Nope. We want to be able to not be punished for wanting to make our ISK where we live.


Baltec wrote:
it is impossible for a section of players to live in the vast bulk of space no matter what they do


Baltec wrote:
Tell me, why should I and everyone else in null sec be forced to build in empire space rather than in our null sec empires?


Call it inference Ruby. If you make your ISK where you live, what reason is there to ever go to HS? On that third quote, he is forced to build in empire. Forced. Meaning that if he had a choice (which he does) he would not build in empire and would simply make his ISK where he lives - and never have the need to set foot in Empire again.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
What you're saying, if I am not misreading you here, is that it is impossible to live in NS -- COMPARED TO HS. That being the case I still do not understand WHY you choose to live there. Your claim is that no matter what you do in NS it will never EVER be as good as HS. Of course, it won't. It's ******* NS. It's supposed to be more challenging than the HS Carebear Risk Averse Kingdom of CONCORD. You moved to NS for the challenge but now find that you aren't up for it? I don't get it.


You knew what you were getting yourself into yes? This imbalance didn't just suddenly manifest itself in shimmering light. Did it?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Eryn Velasquez
#418 - 2014-01-12 11:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eryn Velasquez
Dave Stark wrote:
blabla4711 wrote:
But now we put this "80% of all bots" percentage into the "89% of eve playerbase live/work in highsec" scheme and it says ..... exactly ... nothing. Statistics just say what you want to see.



you mean, the fact that most people, and bots, operate outside of null sec, means nothing? are you sure.


There are more ways to look at these numbers - they also tell, that low/null residents use nearly twice as much bots as hiseccers

Edit:
Forget this - just read the document about populations in high/low/null/wh

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
Themanfromdalmontee
EVE RADIO ARMY
#419 - 2014-01-12 11:10:17 UTC
Diamond Zerg wrote:
Hello.

My prediction: Suddenly EVE becomes much more fun, and a better game in general.

Bots are no longer worthwhile as they make easy targets for PvPers.
The EVE economy becomes dominated by intelligent humans, not machines or "bot aspirant" grinders.

Due to the rapid deflation of the market, low and nullsec players find it much easier to use ingame methods to make ISK
(as their main competition, the botting/multiboxing afk/semi afk hisec players' advantage has been nullified.)

Solo and small gang pvp can now be found in abundance as there are targets and organisations of varying sizes everywhere.

Politics and the metagame get a lot deeper as even PvE focused gamers would have to consider how other players affect their gameplay.


What are your thoughts on what would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

Edit:

Hold on a minute guys, I'm getting a lot of replies about how the hisec PvE population will quit.

To me, this doesn't make much sense. There are many other games with a much more focused, sophisticated PVE experience.

Why would many PvE gamers play a game that doesn't have much PvE content?


Stop imposing the way you want to play on other people. You can do everything you want to do to people in the current criminal rules in high sec without turning it into 0.0 version 2.

Are you jealous or something of someone elses play style and enjoyment?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#420 - 2014-01-12 11:18:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
High Sec has transport costs to. Nearly all high end minerals & all T2 materials are shipped in, it doesn't matter if the cost is paid via a mark up on the goods or not. The cost is still there and is passed on.

Now, what I'm curious about is what these 'higher costs' Null pays. Other than Capital investments which you can't assign entirely to industry as the capital investment is put in for mainly other reasons.
Do the lines somehow cost more than high sec per hour?
What are these actual costs.

Rather than the mythical 'shipping costs' which only apply to null sec imports but not null sec exports.


High sec Industry. Put up buy orders or mine minerals needed, reprocess in system for near no cost, Set away production for near no cost, transport to null (cyno fuel, JF freighter fuel from nearest high sec jumpoff)

Null sec production:

Mine resources, transport to refinery (cyno fuel, JF/Rorqual fuel), refine (our refineries are less efficient), Transport to production outpost (Cyno fuel, JF fuel), build product, Transport finished product to market (Cyno Fuel, JF fuel).

Without counting the trillions we need to spend on outposts and system upgrades we can see that transport costs are at the very least three times higher. That cost goes higher still when we add in the fact that we will need to operate our manufacturing out of a POS or many POSs