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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#301 - 2014-01-11 15:08:47 UTC
Blue Binary wrote:
On the subject of nerfing highsec production slots. People will just start throwing up production POS's in highsec (or as close to highsec) to meet demand, I know I would. At the moment it's convenient to store all my resources in a station hangar and switch production with relative ease. Logistics is the only real time consuming part. It's efficient as should most economies be in an ideal world.

If you nerf the highsec slots you drastically increase the amount of logistics involved in production...


But still not sufficiently - by your own account - to make it worth producing in 0.0

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#302 - 2014-01-11 15:18:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


Very much so. Only the first small baby steps have been taken (relaxing the restrictions on office slots, adding some more build slots, making outpost upgrades slightly less worthless). The core issues remain. It will take a long time, and CCP are deliberately moving slowly on this.

I'd argue that the majority has been done by those changes already. The Industrial system has massive inertia, so if you push hard to try and make people who are already set up in high to move to Null, then you will end up massively over-nerfing High in doing so. And the changes they have done make it most of the way to Null industry being perfectly reasonable to do and perfectly competitive.
If there is an issue with outposts being too scarce & too expensive to build in every single system, then they need to re-assess outposts to be the central hub for an entire constellation (Which opens up to the whole spreading fights out to different nodes at that point also as a side point as well, if Sov becomes constellation based rather than system based.) Which would need outposts being a lot gruntier since they serve more than one systems industrial capacity. Would also make it easier to centralise markets in Null at the same time.
Blue Binary
Polychoron
#303 - 2014-01-11 15:23:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Blue Binary wrote:
On the subject of nerfing highsec production slots. People will just start throwing up production POS's in highsec (or as close to highsec) to meet demand, I know I would. At the moment it's convenient to store all my resources in a station hangar and switch production with relative ease. Logistics is the only real time consuming part. It's efficient as should most economies be in an ideal world.

If you nerf the highsec slots you drastically increase the amount of logistics involved in production...


But still not sufficiently - by your own account - to make it worth producing in 0.0

At the bottom of my original post you quoted I stated I was thinking more of moving resources away from highsec rather than production slots.

Production facilities tend to move closer to where there is easy access to resources and minimal logistics to save on time and costs.
Deunan Tenephais
#304 - 2014-01-11 15:44:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
But still not sufficiently - by your own account - to make it worth producing in 0.0

Supposedly to alleviate hauling time and its cost in isk/hour it is preferable to be near the customers, and customers are in highsec in trade hubs, or at least they are supposed to be.
Unless the star map is redone highsec central position will stay a geographical advantage in reducing shipment time of goods, because it is central, so it's only logical to have main trading hubs there.
Following the logic of manufacturing the closest to the selling points, production lines at least are considered the more rewarding when they are close to the trading hubs.

One of the main attractivity points of highsec in economics is its central position on the star map, it allows to cut travel time for customers and merchants alike, and I don't think that can really be changed unless big amounts of the game are redone.
Concord security, number of npc provided industry lines are other advantages, but the geographical advantage does matter.

At least as far as hauling raw materials to highsec to trasform them in manufactured goods is chosen as a the valid option, if someone decide something else for other reasons, like prefering to cut raw materials hauling time rather than finished products hauling time, then the matter is different.
But I think it is a matter of taking risks, seeing as manufactured/refined products are supposed to be more valuable than their components, some prefer to make many long travels with a miasmos full of ore and a short one with a kryos full of minerals, rather than many small travels with the miasmos and a long one with the kryos, knowing the second option is more likely to see you lose it all in one fell swoop.
Varisto
North Star Science And Industry
#305 - 2014-01-11 15:47:27 UTC
My quss is if CCP would nerf highsec it would kill this game. Nullsec just cant survive without highsec for regrouping, Manufacturing those ship and over all to have new dummies to hire as gun fodder.
Prince Kobol
#306 - 2014-01-11 16:46:24 UTC
Varisto wrote:
My quss is if CCP would nerf highsec it would kill this game. Nullsec just cant survive without highsec for regrouping, Manufacturing those ship and over all to have new dummies to hire as gun fodder.


That is the core of the problem, null sec is 100% reliant on HS.

A corp / alliance should be able to up sticks and move to null sec to live with having to be dependant on HS.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#307 - 2014-01-11 16:49:06 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Nice to see that some one from null-sec has a sense of humour.

It's not humor, it's the truth. The significantly greater amount of organization, work, resources, and time we have to put in to make industry work in nullsec entitles us to better than what you can get for nothing in highsec.

This is only true if you are counting person per person, due to difference in numbers.

Frankly, perhaps part of the problem is high sec industry but it goes beyond that, to make highsec the sole culprit is misleading.
Considering the attractiveness in having one's own infrastructures, nullsec industry should have dwarfed the empires' ones years ago, yet it does not.


One might suppose that this would indicate to you a flaw in your analysis about just how attractive nullsec industry is.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Prince Kobol
#308 - 2014-01-11 16:53:58 UTC
Blue Binary wrote:
On the subject of nerfing highsec production slots. People will just start throwing up production POS's in highsec (or as close to highsec) to meet demand, I know I would. At the moment it's convenient to store all my resources in a station hangar and switch production with relative ease. Logistics is the only real time consuming part. It's efficient as should most economies be in an ideal world.



Good, I would like to see more people using pos's because at least then you can disrupt their production base.

As it stands now, a person can manufacture goods in HS in a well stocked NPC station and there will be nothing you can to disrupt their business.

At the moment Industry is too damn easy in HS which makes it pointless to do it anywhere else the vast majority of cases.

At one point I was building 4 frighteners a week in HS by myself and making a tidy little profit simply by having my production base in a well chosen NPC station. I didn't have mine any ore or move any materials or even undock.

Sure I could of increased my profit margins by doing a number of things but I was happy making the isk I was by never having to undock, how is this balanced?

I go back to time v effort, my little production line required next to no time, maybe 10 mins per day and with no effort.

I could not do this anywhere else in New Eden.



James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2014-01-11 18:43:07 UTC
I want to know where to get a frightener BPO.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Prince Kobol
#310 - 2014-01-11 18:44:49 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I want to know where to get a frightener BPO.


lol :)

Yeah I was getting agro from multiple kids at the time Big smile
Deunan Tenephais
#311 - 2014-01-11 18:54:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Nice to see that some one from null-sec has a sense of humour.

It's not humor, it's the truth. The significantly greater amount of organization, work, resources, and time we have to put in to make industry work in nullsec entitles us to better than what you can get for nothing in highsec.

This is only true if you are counting person per person, due to difference in numbers.

Frankly, perhaps part of the problem is high sec industry but it goes beyond that, to make highsec the sole culprit is misleading.
Considering the attractiveness in having one's own infrastructures, nullsec industry should have dwarfed the empires' ones years ago, yet it does not.


One might suppose that this would indicate to you a flaw in your analysis about just how attractive nullsec industry is.

No, I stand by what I said: the possibility to have one's own infrastructure, even as a group of people, and to do all the manufacturing process is a big incentive to many so inclined people, by virtue of simply doing things by themselves rather than buying things to NPC/other groups of players.

The question of why they don't go in nullsec do just that should be asked, and all fingers not immediatly pointed at highsec.
It does not mean highsec does not deserve some fingerpointing, but probably not as much as nullseccers usualy do.
Prince Kobol
#312 - 2014-01-11 19:44:27 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Nice to see that some one from null-sec has a sense of humour.

It's not humor, it's the truth. The significantly greater amount of organization, work, resources, and time we have to put in to make industry work in nullsec entitles us to better than what you can get for nothing in highsec.

This is only true if you are counting person per person, due to difference in numbers.

Frankly, perhaps part of the problem is high sec industry but it goes beyond that, to make highsec the sole culprit is misleading.
Considering the attractiveness in having one's own infrastructures, nullsec industry should have dwarfed the empires' ones years ago, yet it does not.


One might suppose that this would indicate to you a flaw in your analysis about just how attractive nullsec industry is.

No, I stand by what I said: the possibility to have one's own infrastructure, even as a group of people, and to do all the manufacturing process is a big incentive to many so inclined people, by virtue of simply doing things by themselves rather than buying things to NPC/other groups of players.

The question of why they don't go in nullsec do just that should be asked, and all fingers not immediatly pointed at highsec.
It does not mean highsec does not deserve some fingerpointing, but probably not as much as nullseccers usualy do.


Time V Effort.

Is it worth the time and effort that is required to capture a system, defend it, build an outpost, supply the outpost for the main purpose of manufacturing.

Not even close.
Pipa Porto
#313 - 2014-01-11 20:25:56 UTC
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
No, I stand by what I said: the possibility to have one's own infrastructure, even as a group of people, and to do all the manufacturing process is a big incentive to many so inclined people, by virtue of simply doing things by themselves rather than buying things to NPC/other groups of players.

The question of why they don't go in nullsec do just that should be asked, and all fingers not immediatly pointed at highsec.
It does not mean highsec does not deserve some fingerpointing, but probably not as much as nullseccers usualy do.



Why would you want to spend Trillions of ISK in infrastructure to make less money doing more and more tedious work?

Manufacturing in HS NPC stations is strictly better than manufacturing anywhere else. Hell, when I did the math on a HS manufacturing POS (where the only cost is fuel), PLEXing a new account with its 30 manufacturing slots and manufacturing in stations was far, far more efficient.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#314 - 2014-01-11 20:57:34 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Since CCP has decided that the MTU thing is a bug, it's pretty clear they're not actually interested in having conflict drivers in highsec.


Link?

I sincerely hope this is just trolling.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#315 - 2014-01-11 22:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Pipa Porto wrote:
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
No, I stand by what I said: the possibility to have one's own infrastructure, even as a group of people, and to do all the manufacturing process is a big incentive to many so inclined people, by virtue of simply doing things by themselves rather than buying things to NPC/other groups of players.

The question of why they don't go in nullsec do just that should be asked, and all fingers not immediatly pointed at highsec.
It does not mean highsec does not deserve some fingerpointing, but probably not as much as nullseccers usualy do.



Why would you want to spend Trillions of ISK in infrastructure to make less money doing more and more tedious work?


Then ask yourself a question. Why did you joined nullsec aliance in the first place? To make industry somewhere in a remote star system far far away from well supplied trade hubs of New Eden and then btching in GD that it is inefficient?

Nullsec industry is about supplying your alliance corpmates so they dont need to travel and haul ships and modules from remote trade hubs It is not about your personal profits. Of course it is more difficult. You don't have well stocked marked near you. But thats not a problem of game mechanics.

Living in a nullsec alliance is like living in a colony. There are some rare commodities to harvest (like moon goo and some rare ore). While hisec is like big corporate wall street where all those commodities are sold to transform them to something more advanced. (moongoo is one of main ingredients for T2 manufacturing).

and Prine Kobol ==> ditto

Quote:
At the moment Industry is too damn easy in HS which makes it pointless to do it anywhere else the vast majority of cases.

At one point I was building 4 frighteners a week in HS by myself and making a tidy little profit simply by having my production base in a well chosen NPC station. I didn't have mine any ore or move any materials or even undock.


What prevents you to make several mineral buy orders in nullsec outpost? What prevents you to sell those freighters in the same station? Because it would not sell? Because nobody would deliver those minerals to you? And that's somehow hisecs fault?

Yes i support the idea that outposts should be superior to their station counterparts in hisec. Also i support the idea of making manufacturing slots in hisec more expensive.

But complaining that hisec industry is much easier and more profitable, because of close well supplied, high liquidity market ,and demanding to remove hisec manufacturing slots where everything is running as well oiled machine, is nothing less than those stupid socialists complains about how hard is to live and earn in remote country villages compared to big cities. IdeaIdeaIdea

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Deunan Tenephais
#316 - 2014-01-11 22:53:20 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why would you want to spend Trillions of ISK in infrastructure to make less money doing more and more tedious work?

Manufacturing in HS NPC stations is strictly better than manufacturing anywhere else. Hell, when I did the math on a HS manufacturing POS (where the only cost is fuel), PLEXing a new account with its 30 manufacturing slots and manufacturing in stations was far, far more efficient.

You didn't understand what I wrote, please read my post anew and you will understand that I was not talking about ingame profitability.

Prince Kobol wrote:
Time V Effort.

Is it worth the time and effort that is required to capture a system, defend it, build an outpost, supply the outpost for the main purpose of manufacturing.

Not even close.

Well, this kind of people like to build things and to provide supply to what they have build, for them it's a very valid playstyle, it's part of the manufacture process.
But yes, it's likely that the mandatory Pew vs Pew of nullsec seems to big of a hassle for them to deal with, so they are very reluctant to go into nullsec to establish industry infrastructures.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#317 - 2014-01-11 23:00:34 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Lowering income might actually make it a harsh place again and remove all the ******* Customers from the game.



Fixed it for you.

You Really think that's a good idea??

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#318 - 2014-01-11 23:07:13 UTC
And what of the new player who decides they'd like to be an industrialist?

They can't just throw up a POS in Empire and start building goods. They simply wouldn't have the capital or the standings to facilitate that.

Honestly, I would really rather see more Corps utilizing POS's for industry. But arbitrarily eliminating slots in HS handicaps a new player significantly does it not?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#319 - 2014-01-11 23:26:35 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And what of the new player who decides they'd like to be an industrialist?
They can build slowly using the fewer but less valuable NPC slots that serious industrialists will long since have abandoned.

Quote:
But arbitrarily eliminating slots in HS handicaps a new player significantly does it not?
If it's done in isolation, sure. But it's not meant to be done in isolation, but rather as a part of a galaxy-wide alteration of… oh… pretty much everything industry-related.
Deunan Tenephais
#320 - 2014-01-11 23:30:26 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And what of the new player who decides they'd like to be an industrialist?

They can't just throw up a POS in Empire and start building goods. They simply wouldn't have the capital or the standings to facilitate that.

Honestly, I would really rather see more Corps utilizing POS's for industry. But arbitrarily eliminating slots in HS handicaps a new player significantly does it not?

Depends, it's true that many manufacturing lines are not used at all or rarely, but this is about the ones that are used constantly by nullseccers.
The problem will be that cutting out the ones used by nullseccers and the unused ones (so they simply do not replace the scratched out ones) would probably leave zero manufacture lines for new players, and that's a problem for them to go into manufacturing.
Me and I guess some other people already stopped skilling PI when we learned about the POCOS changes, no fattening the concurrence thank you very much; so leaving zero lines available to newbies would reduce even more the options at hand.
And probably track them on the ressource harvesting part of industry, which means mining...
Hey, can't have more newbies railroaded to mining, it is not Minecraft.

Unless manufacture lines are nerfed in quality rather than in quantity, but if nerfed too much it would leave new players unable to get a sufficiently big enough margin to attract them to it in the first place when faced by seasoned concurrence on the market.