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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2861 - 2014-02-08 18:57:32 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:

Let me try and make this clear. If NullSec residents go back to NullSec because they are able to make their ISK there, it means they are not in HighSec ganking miners, ganking freighters, baiting mission runners, but instead are down in NullSec happily making their ISK while we here in HighSec are simply enjoying our game and making less ISK than people in NullSec. Why do you have a problem with that outcome?


If they are in high sec for the underlined, then making isk is the last thing on their mind and the entire argument is moot. What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.

Mr Epeen Cool
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2862 - 2014-02-08 19:01:29 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.


Who, specifically, is trying to force anyone to leave highsec?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2863 - 2014-02-08 19:03:33 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.


Who, specifically, is trying to force anyone to leave highsec?


No one. But his entire argument predicates on that assumption, so he can't abandon it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2864 - 2014-02-08 19:06:41 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.


Who, specifically, is trying to force anyone to leave highsec?


No one. But his entire argument predicates on that assumption, so he can't abandon it.


Kaarous pls

Mr Epeen Cool
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2865 - 2014-02-08 19:07:36 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:

Let me try and make this clear. If NullSec residents go back to NullSec because they are able to make their ISK there, it means they are not in HighSec ganking miners, ganking freighters, baiting mission runners, but instead are down in NullSec happily making their ISK while we here in HighSec are simply enjoying our game and making less ISK than people in NullSec. Why do you have a problem with that outcome?


If they are in high sec for the underlined, then making isk is the last thing on their mind and the entire argument is moot. What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.

Mr Epeen Cool


Some may be motivated in that way but it seems silly to crusade for easy ganks for 150 pages. Additionally, the data that has been provided does support the claim of an imbalance. I think it foolish to see the imbalance and just say, "Oh well, not my problem". Right?

If the imbalance involved something that was a HighSec only activity we'd all be screaming our heads off and swinging from the rafters (see ganking costs vs. miner hull costs, for example).

If there's an imbalance, do we not owe it to each other to discuss ways to bring it closer to a balance in terms of risk:reward? Some ideas have been presented but we're not discussing the ideas of balance. We're continuously rehashing the claims without data to support the need to do so.

If there is no further data, then let's figure out ways to bring it back in line without breaking the game for anyone, yea?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2866 - 2014-02-08 19:15:25 UTC
144 page thread and I have yet to see a blue tag attached to this thread. Safe to assume CCP does not see an issue with any of the imbalances people here are presenting for right or wrong? Even with an economist on their staff, apparently the faucets, rewards, risks, sinks, and any other choice words people use must all gel into a form CCP finds acceptable.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2867 - 2014-02-08 19:30:07 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
144 page thread and I have yet to see a blue tag attached to this thread. Safe to assume CCP does not see an issue with any of the imbalances people here are presenting for right or wrong? Even with an economist on their staff, apparently the faucets, rewards, risks, sinks, and any other choice words people use must all gel into a form CCP finds acceptable.


I think CCP is trying to avoid a topic as polarized as this. It'd be nice to know what CCP thinks of this though.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2868 - 2014-02-08 19:35:05 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
144 page thread and I have yet to see a blue tag attached to this thread. Safe to assume CCP does not see an issue with any of the imbalances people here are presenting for right or wrong? Even with an economist on their staff, apparently the faucets, rewards, risks, sinks, and any other choice words people use must all gel into a form CCP finds acceptable.


Honestly, I think it suicide for a Dev to walk into this thing.

My hope is that if we can agree there is an imbalance and can all work together to provide some F&I/CSM material, then we can affect change that brings that imbalance back in line without ruining any specific persons game, yea?

Of course, I'm an optimist.

My idea is to introduce more LP in Null to supplement the income of Null Residents. This will cause more ISK to flow out through the sink to compensate for the added ISK as enagement in NullSec PVE increases. It will evenually have an effect on ISK/LP as supplies of the more lucrative LP items increases but is in line with the risk:reward model.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Does anyone else have any other suggestions?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2869 - 2014-02-08 19:38:34 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.


If you see it as an "imbalance" that people trade in Jita, I'm not sure what to tell you.

At this point I think you have lost your grips on the term "balance."

Kimmi Chan wrote:
I live full-time in HighSec.


I live in highsec, nullsec, and lowsec, and spend occasional time in wormholes as well. This is why I don't really see it productive to say things likes "highsec versus nullsec" because I see them as symbiotic places that feed each other.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
If NullSec residents go back to NullSec because they are able to make their ISK there, it means they are not in HighSec ganking miners, ganking freighters, baiting mission runners, but instead are down in NullSec happily making their ISK while we here in HighSec are simply enjoying our game and making less ISK than people in NullSec. Why do you have a problem with that outcome?


I think you have a false premise that "all the highsec gankers" are nullsec pilots "forced into highsec for ISK."

So basically, your outcome is absurd and fabricated.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2870 - 2014-02-08 19:43:00 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.


If you see it as an "imbalance" that people trade in Jita, I'm not sure what to tell you.

At this point I think you have lost your grips on the term "balance."


That's not what he said.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2871 - 2014-02-08 19:44:42 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.


If you see it as an "imbalance" that people trade in Jita, I'm not sure what to tell you.

At this point I think you have lost your grips on the term "balance."


That's not what he said.


He said more people trade in Highsec, and it's thus imbalanced.

So yes, he did say that.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2872 - 2014-02-08 19:47:43 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.


If you see it as an "imbalance" that people trade in Jita, I'm not sure what to tell you.

At this point I think you have lost your grips on the term "balance."


That's not what he said.


He said more people trade in Highsec, and it's thus imbalanced.

So yes, he did say that.


What he said was that if YOU want to compare EVERY nullsec activity to EVERY highsec activity in terms of ISK/hr, then there is still an imbalance.

Again why we segmented the activities out.

Now that we've established this imbalance, what do you suggest be done to resolve it?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2873 - 2014-02-08 19:49:29 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
144 page thread and I have yet to see a blue tag attached to this thread. Safe to assume CCP does not see an issue with any of the imbalances people here are presenting for right or wrong? Even with an economist on their staff, apparently the faucets, rewards, risks, sinks, and any other choice words people use must all gel into a form CCP finds acceptable.


Honestly, I think it suicide for a Dev to walk into this thing.

My hope is that if we can agree there is an imbalance and can all work together to provide some F&I/CSM material, then we can affect change that brings that imbalance back in line without ruining any specific persons game, yea?

Of course, I'm an optimist.

My idea is to introduce more LP in Null to supplement the income of Null Residents. This will cause more ISK to flow out through the sink to compensate for the added ISK as enagement in NullSec PVE increases. It will evenually have an effect on ISK/LP as supplies of the more lucrative LP items increases but is in line with the risk:reward model.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Does anyone else have any other suggestions?


I think they should put out a devblog about it.

As long as the LP is concord LP or some kind of LP that can be converted to whatever the person desires I agree with that.

I liked the other idea of players being able to build LP store items in nullsec at cheaper than what they cost in highsec as well. It won't do anything right away but it's along the same lines as adding more LP, over time the supply will increase which will decrease the value of those LP store items which will decrease isk/hr.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2874 - 2014-02-08 19:55:09 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
What they are really arguing for is forcing high sec carebears into easy ganks in low/null.



Like I said with hawkeye, I'll say here. I just don't know what it is about any video game that impires people to lie. Maybe it's the anonimity that makes people like you think it's ok, but I don't get it, as there's not a single person on the internet important enoguh to me to lie to.

I say this because you just can't believe what you just typed, it's that stupid. In a game that has faction warfare, red vs blue and all other types of pick up gang pvp, why in the hell would anyone need more targets or easy ganks or whatever? I don't even pvp much, i'm a pve player.

Are you people that greedy for imaginary money that the idea of a properly balanced sitution is that scary to you?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2875 - 2014-02-08 19:59:29 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
What he said was that if YOU want to compare EVERY nullsec activity to EVERY highsec activity in terms of ISK/hr, then there is still an imbalance.


Until you realize that the comparison doesn't even make sense, because nullsec provides tons of goods that can't otherwise even be obtained,.

Meaning if you cut out nullsec, most of the ships and modules we use wouldn't even be producible anymore.

You can't even react moon goo in highsec, ffs.

Also: your obvious bias is starting to show.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2876 - 2014-02-08 19:59:49 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Guttripper wrote:
144 page thread and I have yet to see a blue tag attached to this thread. Safe to assume CCP does not see an issue with any of the imbalances people here are presenting for right or wrong? Even with an economist on their staff, apparently the faucets, rewards, risks, sinks, and any other choice words people use must all gel into a form CCP finds acceptable.


I think CCP is trying to avoid a topic as polarized as this. It'd be nice to know what CCP thinks of this though.


We know what they USED to think about it.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/nullsec-development-design-goals/

Whether or not they understand human behavior enough to understand that a game with jump engines, jump clones and a safe zone (high sec) that is so overpowered that it moots the other other zones, that's another question.
Sylveria Relden
#2877 - 2014-02-08 20:07:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


I think they should put out a devblog about it.

As long as the LP is concord LP or some kind of LP that can be converted to whatever the person desires I agree with that.

I liked the other idea of players being able to build LP store items in nullsec at cheaper than what they cost in highsec as well. It won't do anything right away but it's along the same lines as adding more LP, over time the supply will increase which will decrease the value of those LP store items which will decrease isk/hr.


What about just removing all LP from the game, making it all isk-based, then it doesn't matter where you earn what you earn isk from- you have equal opportunity? Then no matter where you mission, as long as you've standing with the rep you need to spend isk with you've got it available? I suppose then the question would be how to convert all existing LP into isk equivalent then we're off on another threadnaught Blink "whose is worth moar???" LOL

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2878 - 2014-02-08 20:08:27 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
What he said was that if YOU want to compare EVERY nullsec activity to EVERY highsec activity in terms of ISK/hr, then there is still an imbalance.


Until you realize that the comparison doesn't even make sense, because nullsec provides tons of goods that can't otherwise even be obtained,.

Meaning if you cut out nullsec, most of the ships and modules we use wouldn't even be producible anymore.

You can't even react moon goo in highsec, ffs.

Also: your obvious bias is starting to show.


What bias? What specifically is it that you're accusing me of?

My "bias" is living in High Sec space and hoping to just be left the hell alone while I run L4 missions my way, on my time, without any obligations to anyone and to not be enslaved to ISK/hr because I make enough in an hour at work to sub my accounts.

My "bias" is recognizing an imbalance supported by falsifiable data and, filled with a desire to make the game better for everyone, offering suggestions on how to possibly facilitate that balance.

So please, feel free to elaborate on my bias or, you know, keep posting baseless claims predicated on ignorance and spite.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2879 - 2014-02-08 20:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kimmi Chan wrote:
My "bias" is living in High Sec space and hoping to just be left the hell alone while I run L4 missions my way, on my time, without any obligations to anyone and to not be enslaved to ISK/hr because I make enough in an hour at work to sub my accounts.


So you're admitting that you don't participate in the sandbox?

That's pretty big bias right there.

In fact, if that is all you really do "run missions in highsec" then according to CCP, you are in the most risk prone group to just outright quit the game, because you aren't engaged in the sandbox.

Which...Basically invalidates your opinions. You might as well not even be playing the game.

"So what do you do in EVE, man?"

"Oh you know...I just kind of do these quests, over and over."

"Sounds fun dude..."

"Yeah....."
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2880 - 2014-02-08 20:16:57 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
My "bias" is living in High Sec space and hoping to just be left the hell alone while I run L4 missions my way, on my time, without any obligations to anyone and to not be enslaved to ISK/hr because I make enough in an hour at work to sub my accounts.


So you're admitting that you don't participate in the sandbox?

That's pretty big bias right there.

In fact, if that is all you really do "run missions in highsec" then according to CCP, you are in the most risk prone group to just outright quit the game, because you aren't engaged in the sandbox.

Which...Basically invalidates your opinions. You might as well not even be playing the game.

"So what do you do in EVE, man?"

"Oh you know...I just kind of do these quests, over and over."

"Sounds fun dude..."

"Yeah....."


And here I am six years later. You now want to assume bias based on generalizations? Brilliant.

Incidentally, your opinion unsupported by data, amounts to nothing more than you just saying stuff and invalidates any relevancy you have in refuting any claim here, yea?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!