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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Billy McCandless
Zacharia Explorations Group
#2841 - 2014-02-08 17:24:48 UTC
i kant weiht to tel mi frends hoo due distrib you shun tha they r dueing PeeVeeEee

"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2842 - 2014-02-08 17:25:58 UTC
Hell Ball wrote:
But would you agree those are indirect or direct nerfs to null sec?
Not the interceptor change, and not the ESS itself but rather the bounty nerf that was rendered pointless by the updated reward design.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2843 - 2014-02-08 17:29:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Pinky Hops]If by “arbitrary” you mean “mechanically and functionally distinct and descriptive”. The label “Combat PvE” neatly encapsulates a very clear category of activities and explains in full what it does and how it differs from other methods of making money.


It stops being descriptive and starts being arbitrary when you magically distinguish shooting rocks or industry in general as "PvE"
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2844 - 2014-02-08 17:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
1) Your distinctions are arbitrary. "Combat PvE" for instance, is a completely arbitrary label - especially since you just concluded that it's a form of PvP.


It is not an arbitrary label if you're paying attention. For the past 100 pages we have compared HighSec L4 mission income with SovNull anom income - this is not arbitrary. It is a valid comparison that was established and agreed upon 100 pages ago. What is arbitrary is why you feel entitled to suddenly show up and claim that it is arbitrary in spite of your contributions to the discussion since the method of comparison was established. This is what the folks in Null have referred to and continue to refer to as "moving the goal posts".

Pinky Hops wrote:
2) You arbitrarily dictate something about "alliance level income" - completely ignoring that there are in fact many people with enough individual capital to fund a titan. They probably didn't get it by ratting, though. Blink


When comparing two similar activities as a method of making ISK, you don't cloudy the data by suddenly saying, "but you didn't include this totally different method of making ISK".

Pinky Hops wrote:
3) I invoked W-space to provide an easy example of how people can work together for individual income - basically pointing out that you can't just automatically rule out cooperation and say it doesn't count as "individual income."


You invoked W-Space to illustrate to what extent one can go to bring up anecdotal evidence that is irrelevant to what is being discussed and what has been discussed for the past 100 pages - the disparity of income generated from similar methods (Combat PVE) in HighSec (L4 Missions) and SovNull (Anoms).

You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2845 - 2014-02-08 17:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
It stops being descriptive and starts being arbitrary when you magically distinguish shooting rocks or industry in general as "PvE"

…which is why we don't consider them combat PvE: because they don't fit any of the categories. It's not based on combat and the opposition does not come from the environment.

Keep such obvious non-conforming activities out and it is as descriptive and non-arbitrary as can be, which is why these distinctions and labels have so successfully and widely used for many many years.


Oh, and I forgot to ask: what does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?
Good Posting
Doomheim
#2846 - 2014-02-08 17:49:04 UTC
Hmmmm.... Mercoxit?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2847 - 2014-02-08 17:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim.


No, it doesn't, and this is my main point.

The data does not support that claim.

It only supports that claim if you live in a vacuum (harhar space is a vacuum) and the only way to make ISK is to run anoms or run missions - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Welcome to the EVE sandbox. Is this your first trip?
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2848 - 2014-02-08 18:23:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Wait, what?

He edited about five paragraphs into "grr goons."
…or, to use your vernacular, he “shortened it” to a more pithy version.

Quote:
How else can I interpret that other than him admitting defeat?
By reading what he wrote and responding to it rather than invent your own interpretation and editing it in because you ran out of arguments and lost.

And here in resides the problem for you tipia and your forum troll buddies like jenna whine la nariz and a host of others. For you guys its about winning internet forum arguments and not about improving the game.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2849 - 2014-02-08 18:26:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim.


No, it doesn't, and this is my main point.

The data does not support that claim.

It only supports that claim if you live in a vacuum (harhar space is a vacuum) and the only way to make ISK is to run anoms or run missions - which couldn't be further from the truth.

Welcome to the EVE sandbox. Is this your first trip?


All right then Pinky.

What is a Null resident going to do while their Industry jobs are running?

What is a Null resident going to do while their PI is cooking?

What is a Null resident going to to while the Titan is being built?

Logoff and watch a little TV?
Maybe catch up on some reading?
Maybe put in a few hours of overtime at work?

Or are they going to engage in some PVE?

If they are going to engage in that PVE where do you think they're going to do it?

In NullSec where they can make 70m ISK/hr and deal with roaming gangs, neuts and reds in their PVE system?

Or in HighSec where they can (though not everyone in HighSec does) make 100m ISK/hr with arguably less interruption?

This is why the method is seperated in this way. All that other **** you want to include is being done already. The question is what they do while that other **** is being done. Which would you do if you wanted to make some extra ISK?

ED: Adding this again since you still keep missing the point.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2850 - 2014-02-08 18:26:55 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
And here in resides the problem for you tipia and your forum troll buddies like jenna whine la nariz and a host of others. For you guys its about winning internet forum arguments and not about improving the game.


Do you have anything to back this up, or is it just a smokescreen because you don't have actual facts or data to counter what's been said?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Sylveria Relden
#2851 - 2014-02-08 18:28:57 UTC
Complete order or complete chaos? Or a balance of the two?

IMO, The basic premise being argued (by both "sides") over and over is that you can have neither complete control, nor complete chaos.

This game requires space pixel ships and modules, which require industry in some way to provide, which is player controlled. It also requires players to interact by "piloting" said space pixels, and some even choose to hinder others doing so. Think on how nature balances itself- if you have nothing but creation but no destruction- you'd eventually run out of "space". Circle of life.

Demand -> Supply -> Demand -> Supply, etc. Basic game economics. Who's going to supply the ships if no one's mining ore and building them? Who's going to explode the ships if everyone's mining or building ships? (or trading, etc.)

If no (or limited) industry = no ships = no space pixel explosions = no industry, etc.

So who's "right" and who's "wrong" here?

I think it all comes back to balance.

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2852 - 2014-02-08 18:29:09 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
What is a Null resident going to do while their Industry jobs are running?


Look for PvP targets, perhaps?

Believe it or not, the purpose of the game is not to make ISK.

Also: if you can only make 70m/hour in nullsec doing anoms you are doing something hilariously wrong.

I can make more than that just running relic/data sites. You'd only have to find/do about 3 relic sites per hour to make that much.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2853 - 2014-02-08 18:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
What is a Null resident going to do while their Industry jobs are running?


Look for PvP targets, perhaps?

Believe it or not, the purpose of the game is not to make ISK.

Also: if you can only make 70m/hour in nullsec doing anoms you are doing something hilariously wrong.

I can make more than that just running relic/data sites. You'd only have to find/do about 3 relic sites per hour to make that much.


Show us the data.

La Nariz has already provided falsifiable data that can be proved or refuted by anyone engaging with the same method.

I've not seen the data to support your claim.

In addition you are once again comparaing two different things.

If you want to compare data/relic sites in NullSec with data/relic sites in HighSec, fine. No one is claiming that risk : reward in that comparison is out of balance.

Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2854 - 2014-02-08 18:36:38 UTC
admiral root wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
And here in resides the problem for you tipia and your forum troll buddies like jenna whine la nariz and a host of others. For you guys its about winning internet forum arguments and not about improving the game.


Do you have anything to back this up, or is it just a smokescreen because you don't have actual facts or data to counter what's been said?

The proof is in the posting. Some things can and should be processed on your own without being spoon fed.

Even when given specific and precise information the forum trolls choose to ignore it so they may continue to try and win their argument.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2855 - 2014-02-08 18:39:26 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Even when given specific and precise information the forum trolls choose to ignore it so they may continue to try and win their argument.


Can you point to a post in this thread with some of this "specific and precise" information, please?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2856 - 2014-02-08 18:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Show us the data.


You would just claim it's fake. Pointless. If you want to verify it, go to nullsec and run relic/datas. If you need any tips, feel free to let me know. I have done hundreds of those sites.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.


Yes, and you are missing the point. Why do these specific activities need to be balanced, given that there are MANY different income streams that all scale differently in both areas?

Sure, Activity A might earn less than highsec, but you also have activities B, C, D, E, F, G....and maybe 20 others, at your disposal, to make ISK.

Some things are worse in one area, some things are better in one area. That's EVE for you.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.


I already refuted this. Read up.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2857 - 2014-02-08 18:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: admiral root
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.
Yes, and you are missing the point. Why do these specific activities need to be balanced, given that there are MANY different income streams that all scale differently in both areas?


To answer that, see if you can answer this question: what does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2858 - 2014-02-08 18:45:25 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
If you want to compare data/relic sites in NullSec with data/relic sites in HighSec, fine. No one is claiming that risk : reward in that comparison is out of balance.

Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.


By your own logic, shouldn't you thus be comparing highsec missions to nullsec missions, and highsec anoms vs nullsec anoms?

Roll

Not that it would really improve your argument much, but there it is.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2859 - 2014-02-08 18:49:27 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
You would just claim it's fake. Pointless. If you want to verify it, go to nullsec and run relic/datas. If you need any tips, feel free to let me know. I have done hundreds of those sites.


Why do you assume I would claim it to be fake? What do I possibly have to gain by claiming it to be fake?


Pinky Hops wrote:
Yes, and you are missing the point. Why do these specific activities need to be balanced, given that there are MANY different income streams that all scale differently in both areas?

Sure, Activity A might earn less than highsec, but you also have activities B, C, D, E, F, G....and maybe 20 others, at your disposal, to make ISK.

Some things are worse in one area, some things are better in one area. That's EVE for you.


So by that logic we would also include trading in all the empire market hubs as part of that income. In which case there is still an imbalance overall.

Kimmi Chan wrote:
You are once again missing the entire point of the discussion. People in Null can make more money in HighSec than they can in SovNull. The data supports this claim. They don't want to live in HighSec. They want to live in NullSec. They don't because HighSec is more profitable without the added risk of NullSec. If you can frame your responses with this in mind, you'll see how blatantly irrelevant your tangents have been.


Pinky Hops wrote:
I already refuted this. Read up.


You've not refuted it. You're simply choosing to ignore it.

I live full-time in HighSec. I am able to recognize an imbalance when I see, as are many others. What was being discussed was how to resolve the issue without breaking the game for anyone. But then, another individual jumped back into the discussion, ignoring the driver behind the discussion, and muddied it all up again.

Let me try and make this clear. If NullSec residents go back to NullSec because they are able to make their ISK there, it means they are not in HighSec ganking miners, ganking freighters, baiting mission runners, but instead are down in NullSec happily making their ISK while we here in HighSec are simply enjoying our game and making less ISK than people in NullSec. Why do you have a problem with that outcome?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2860 - 2014-02-08 18:50:25 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
If you want to compare data/relic sites in NullSec with data/relic sites in HighSec, fine. No one is claiming that risk : reward in that comparison is out of balance.

Again what is being claimed is that NullSec Combat PVE (Anoms) vs. HighSec Combat PVE (L4 Missions) is out of balance in terms of risk : reward.


By your own logic, shouldn't you thus be comparing highsec missions to nullsec missions, and highsec anoms vs nullsec anoms?

Roll

Not that it would really improve your argument much, but there it is.



Oh dear. I can't even begin to tell you...

This ends badly.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!