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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2821 - 2014-02-08 16:42:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Cooperate to build
So not an individual PvE income stream. Try again.

What you're doing there is kind of like comparing two different jobs based on whether the local lunch restaurant has good chicken or not.


So anything that involves cooperation is not an individual income stream?

People in wormholes don't get individual income by cooperating in C6 sites? Roll


You're deliberately obtuse, I believe.


So replace it with a multiboxer soloing the C6 site with his multiple accounts.

I don't understand how splitting profits does not result in individual profit. Somebody needs to explain this to me, using small words.
Billy McCandless
Zacharia Explorations Group
#2822 - 2014-02-08 16:43:07 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


It offers some opposition, just minimal amounts.

Somebody has to shoot the rocks.


this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer

"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2823 - 2014-02-08 16:43:53 UTC
Billy McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


It offers some opposition, just minimal amounts.

Somebody has to shoot the rocks.


this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer


Yeah, those mission pirates are really smart too.

Oh wait.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2824 - 2014-02-08 16:45:09 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Billy McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


It offers some opposition, just minimal amounts.

Somebody has to shoot the rocks.


this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer


Yeah, those mission pirates are really smart too.

Oh wait.


Rocks don't shoot back.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2825 - 2014-02-08 16:47:22 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
I don't understand
We know.

Quote:
how splitting profits does not result in individual profit.
No-one has claimed that it doesn't. That's just some nonsensical strawman you've created.

What does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2826 - 2014-02-08 16:49:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Billy McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


It offers some opposition, just minimal amounts.

Somebody has to shoot the rocks.


this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer


Yeah, those mission pirates are really smart too.

Oh wait.


Rocks don't shoot back.


Why is that mandatory? It's still a part of the environment and you're tearing it down. Thus, PvE.

The rock is computer controlled. It's a thing. You shoot it. It disappears into your inventory. That is definitely PvE.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2827 - 2014-02-08 16:50:14 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Billy McCandless wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:


It offers some opposition, just minimal amounts.

Somebody has to shoot the rocks.


this is troo

rox oot smarte me allte tyme wen i dool them in mi egg sumer


Yeah, those mission pirates are really smart too.

Oh wait.


Rocks don't shoot back.


Why is that mandatory? It's still a part of the environment and you're tearing it down. Thus, PvE.

The rock is computer controlled. It's a thing. You shoot it. It disappears into your inventory. That is definitely PvE.


Remember what I said about you being deliberately obtuse?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2828 - 2014-02-08 16:51:50 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Why is that mandatory?
Because otherwise there is no “versus”.

The thing that provides an opposition — an obstacle to overcome — is other players. This is commonly called PvP.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2829 - 2014-02-08 16:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
what is this, a roleplay thread?

let's discuss philosophically the difference between the computer rock and the computer pirate and how one counts as environment and one does not.

oh god

Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Why is that mandatory?
Because otherwise there is no “versus”.

The thing that provides an opposition — an obstacle to overcome — is other players. This is commonly called PvP.


the obstacle is quite obviously to destroy the rock and collect the resources.

MINER VERSUS ROCK ROUND 1
FIGHT!!!!

miner shoots rock
miner shoots rock
miner shoots rock
...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2830 - 2014-02-08 16:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
let's discuss philosophically the difference between the computer rock and the computer pirate and how one counts as environment and one does not.
Let's not and instead call things what they are.
Stop playing dumb and just accept the very simple and blatantly obvious fact that industry is not PvE.

Quote:
the obstacle is quite obviously to destroy the rock and collect the resources.

How is it an obstacle? What's keeping you from collecting the resources? It certainly isn't the rock…


Also: what does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2831 - 2014-02-08 16:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
what is this, a roleplay thread?

let's discuss philosophically the difference between the computer rock and the computer pirate and how one counts as environment and one does not.

oh god

Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Why is that mandatory?
Because otherwise there is no “versus”.

The thing that provides an opposition — an obstacle to overcome — is other players. This is commonly called PvP.


the obstacle is quite obviously to destroy the rock and collect the resources.


I think I can help you with this.

Shooting rats in missions is infinite. Infinite missions, infinite rat spawns, etc.

Shooting rocks and putting the "things" in your cargo hold is removing the "things" from the game preventing another player from shooting those "things" - PVP.

Further, if you leave the "things" in your cargo hold you could say it's PVP-lite. But the minute those "things" go on the market or are refined into other "things" and subsequently used to construct other "things" and then you put the "things" on the market, you are competing with other players - PVP

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2832 - 2014-02-08 17:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
what is this, a roleplay thread?

let's discuss philosophically the difference between the computer rock and the computer pirate and how one counts as environment and one does not.

oh god

Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Why is that mandatory?
Because otherwise there is no “versus”.

The thing that provides an opposition — an obstacle to overcome — is other players. This is commonly called PvP.


the obstacle is quite obviously to destroy the rock and collect the resources.


I think I can help you with this.

Shooting rats in missions is infinite. Infinite missions, infinite rat spawns, etc.

Shooting rocks and putting the "things" in your cargo hold is removing the "things" from the game preventing another player from shooting those "things" - PVP.

Further, if you leave the "things" in your cargo hold you could say it's PVP-lite. But the minute those "things" go on the market or are refined into other "things" and subsequently used to construct other "things" and then you put the "things" on the market, you are competing with other players - PVP


You could make the same argument of loyalty points, or even of collecting ISK versus resources that might hold value better than the ISK.

Interacting with the economy at all is a form of PvP.

So if this is the direction we are going with it, then all forms of income within EVE are PvP.
Hell Ball
Doomheim
#2833 - 2014-02-08 17:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Hell Ball
Got some questions for some people in Null sec.

1. Why did ccp nerf the Sanctums http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/those-anomaly-changes-in-full/

2. Why did the give cepters the ablity to not be affected by bubbles https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283145

3. Why did they make the ESS.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2834 - 2014-02-08 17:11:27 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
You could make the same argument of loyalty points, or even of collecting ISK versus resources that might hold value better than the ISK.
…except that ISK and loyalty points don't just hang around waiting to be collected by whomever gets to them first. They are rewards for doing what an NPC have told you to do (commonly win over another NPC), as opposed to ore which is a reward for beating other players.

Quote:
Interacting with the economy at all is a form of PvP.
No, but interacting with the market is.

Quote:
So if this is the direction we are going with it, then all forms of income within EVE are PvP.
No, just the ones that require you to overcome some kind of NPC.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2835 - 2014-02-08 17:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
You could make the same argument of loyalty points, or even of collecting ISK versus resources that might hold value better than the ISK.

Interacting with the economy at all is a form of PvP.

So if this is the direction we are going with it, then all forms of income within EVE are PvP.


You're absolutely right! Bully for you!

What we're discussing is Method A (Combat PVE) in both HighSec and NullSec.

What you're discussing is a combination of Method A (Combat PVE), Method B (which includes capital construction in one Sec), and Method C (Alliance Level Income) to intentionally or unintentionally cloudy or derail the discussion. ED: At one point you even chose to invoke W-Space which kind of came out of left field.

Maybe it's an ADHD thing which I can certainly relate to but it's exactly the reason I prefer to segment the methods out, so I'm not overly confused or unfocused on the discussion at hand.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2836 - 2014-02-08 17:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hell Ball wrote:
Got some queistons for some people in Null sec.

1. Why did ccp nerf the Sanctums http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/those-anomaly-changes-in-full/

2. Why did the give cepters the ablity to not be affected by bubbles https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283145

3. Why did they make the ESS.

1. Because they tried the oft-suggested strategy of “just buff null”, which turned out to be disastrous to the economy, and they had to roll it back.

2. Because it fits their intended role of superior mobility.

3. Because they wanted to start dabbling in a “farms and fields” approach to null income.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2837 - 2014-02-08 17:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
You could make the same argument of loyalty points, or even of collecting ISK versus resources that might hold value better than the ISK.

Interacting with the economy at all is a form of PvP.

So if this is the direction we are going with it, then all forms of income within EVE are PvP.


You're absolutely right! Bully for you!

What we're discussing is Method A (Combat PVE) in both HighSec and NullSec.

What you're discussing is a combination of Method A (Combat PVE), Method B (which includes capital construction in one Sec), and Method C (Alliance Level Income) to intentionally or unintentionally cloudy or derail the discussion. ED: At one point you even chose to invoke W-Space which kind of came out of left field.

Maybe it's an ADHD thing which I can certainly relate to but it's exactly the reason I prefer to segment the methods out, so I'm not overly confused or unfocused on the discussion at hand.


1) Your distinctions are arbitrary. "Combat PvE" for instance, is a completely arbitrary label - especially since you just concluded that it's a form of PvP.

2) You arbitrarily dictate something about "alliance level income" - completely ignoring that there are in fact many people with enough individual capital to fund a titan. They probably didn't get it by ratting, though. Blink

3) I invoked W-space to provide an easy example of how people can work together for individual income - basically pointing out that you can't just automatically rule out cooperation and say it doesn't count as "individual income."
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2838 - 2014-02-08 17:22:30 UTC
Pinky, please could you answer the following question: what does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?

Thanks!

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2839 - 2014-02-08 17:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
1) Your distinctions are arbitrary. "Combat PvE" for instance, is a completely arbitrary label - especially since you just concluded that it's a form of PvP.
If by “arbitrary” you mean “mechanically and functionally distinct and descriptive”. The label “Combat PvE” neatly encapsulates a very clear category of activities and explains in full what it does and how it differs from other methods of making money.

Quote:
2) You arbitrarily dictate something about "alliance level income"
It's not arbitrary to make a distinction between individual income that is generated to benefit the individual and corp- or alliance-level income that is generated to benefit the corp or alliance.

Quote:
I invoked W-space to provide an easy example of how people can work together for individual income
…which no-one has ever disputed but rather is some nonsensical strawman you've invented for yourself.

Oh, and by the way: what does sov null have in place of highsec L4 missions?
Hell Ball
Doomheim
#2840 - 2014-02-08 17:23:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hell Ball wrote:
Got some queistons for some people in Null sec.

1. Why did ccp nerf the Sanctums http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/those-anomaly-changes-in-full/

2. Why did the give cepters the ablity to not be affected by bubbles https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=283145

3. Why did they make the ESS.

1. Because they tried the oft-suggested strategy of “just buff null”, which turned out to be disastrous to the economy, and they had to roll it back.

2. Because it fits their intended role of superior mobility.

3. Because they wanted to start dabbling in a “farms and fields” approach to null income.


But would you agree those are indirect or direct nerfs to null sec?