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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2761 - 2014-02-08 15:17:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
The game is designed to not allow this to happen
…and that is the problem, since the stated goal is that the game is supposed to allow it.
The fact that it doesn't right now is the imbalance that is in dire need of a fix.


Actually, it proves my point, not yours.

Total self-sufficiency is not a design goal, and is specifically avoided...As explicitly stated in that blog.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2762 - 2014-02-08 15:18:18 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
They simply want to be able to live in Null and stay in Null.


The game is designed to not allow this to happen, and this is the crux of your argument - so I might as well attack it directly.

No single area of the game (highsec, lowsec, nullsec, wormholes) has every resource.


ISK as a resource output of PVE is, according to the data that has been provided by Stoicfaux, La Nariz, Tippia, and myself, easier to make in HighSec. Your assertion without citing any source to support said assertion is:

Pinky Hops wrote:
This is deliberate, to prevent you from being able to live in any one place, and forcing trade and travel between regions.

CCP will never allow everything to be gathered in one place for a self sufficient ecosystem. So if this is the goal, you might as well give up on it now, because it will not happen.


And ironically enough, I've always been pretty self-sufficient in HighSec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2763 - 2014-02-08 15:18:33 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
They simply want to be able to live in Null and stay in Null.


The game is designed to not allow this to happen, and this is the crux of your argument - so I might as well attack it directly.

No single area of the game (highsec, lowsec, nullsec, wormholes) has every resource.

This is deliberate, to prevent you from being able to live in any one place, and forcing trade and travel between regions.

CCP will never allow everything to be gathered in one place for a self sufficient ecosystem. So if this is the goal, you might as well give up on it now, because it will not happen.



Isk isnt like minerals. Where is the logic in putting the biggest rewards in the safest space?
stoicfaux
#2764 - 2014-02-08 15:19:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Earlier in this thread some suggested the elimination of blitzing to force people to clear all mission rats to flag the mission completed. If that idea were implemented, would it not inject more ISK in through bounties and reduce ISK out through the LP store?
Eh…

Chances are that the mission blitzers would just move on to some other activity that allowed for the same ISK/h, and the effect of that migration in terms of faucets and sinks will depend entirely on what activity they pick. But yes, if everyone just kept doing what they were doing, somehow, you'd have a double-whammy of increased ISK injection through bounties and reduced ISK sinking through LP.

And that substitution activity would be cherry picking, full clears, max gank marauder level 4s in high sec. And from what I am seeing, I am not sure income would drop below 100M/hour.

I will try to post numbers late tomorrow. Full clears take so long, that getting an adequate mission sample size is difficult.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2765 - 2014-02-08 15:20:36 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
The game is designed to not allow this to happen
…and that is the problem, since the stated goal is that the game is supposed to allow it.
The fact that it doesn't right now is the imbalance that is in dire need of a fix.


Actually, it proves my point, not yours.

Total self-sufficiency is not a design goal, and is specifically avoided...As explicitly stated in that blog.


DevBlog you didn't read wrote:
Industry

99% self-sufficient by volume
For further discussion. People building things in nullsec should only need to travel to empire (or more than a couple of regions across nullsec) for low-volume supplies. This requires that industrialists have a ready supply of low-end minerals available nearby in nullsec, without breaking other systems or goals. (Likely means some way of mining low-ends in a massively more rapid manner compared to current tools.)

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Lucy Oreless
Rise of Rephaim
#2766 - 2014-02-08 15:20:44 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
They simply want to be able to live in Null and stay in Null.


The game is designed to not allow this to happen, and this is the crux of your argument - so I might as well attack it directly.

No single area of the game (highsec, lowsec, nullsec, wormholes) has every resource.

This is deliberate, to prevent you from being able to live in any one place, and forcing trade and travel between regions.

CCP will never allow everything to be gathered in one place for a self sufficient ecosystem. So if this is the goal, you might as well give up on it now, because it will not happen.


Now tell me, under what bridge do you come up with this? Blink

 I did not have sexual relations to THAT woman....
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2767 - 2014-02-08 15:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
Actually, it proves my point, not yours.
Actually, it proves the point Kimmi was making before you edited it.

The design goal is that for industry, nullsec should be 99% self-sufficient. But we're not talking about industry. We're talking about individual income from PvE.

So again, the stated goal is that the game is supposed to allow you to live in null and stay in null. The fact that it doesn't right now is the imbalance that is in dire need of a fix.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2768 - 2014-02-08 15:21:51 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Earlier in this thread some suggested the elimination of blitzing to force people to clear all mission rats to flag the mission completed. If that idea were implemented, would it not inject more ISK in through bounties and reduce ISK out through the LP store?
Eh…

Chances are that the mission blitzers would just move on to some other activity that allowed for the same ISK/h, and the effect of that migration in terms of faucets and sinks will depend entirely on what activity they pick. But yes, if everyone just kept doing what they were doing, somehow, you'd have a double-whammy of increased ISK injection through bounties and reduced ISK sinking through LP.

And that substitution activity would be cherry picking, full clears, max gank marauder level 4s in high sec. And from what I am seeing, I am not sure income would drop below 100M/hour.

I will try to post numbers late tomorrow. Full clears take so long, that getting an adequate mission sample size is difficult.


Thanks for taking your time to provide more data Stoic. It is appreciated.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#2769 - 2014-02-08 15:23:03 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
"wahhh, i live in null therefore i should be able to make every single ship at my station at half cost and every rat should drop a bajillion isk and there aren't enough rainbow ponies"

at this point, i can't believe this is anything but willful ignorance

i mean eve-kill is right there
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2770 - 2014-02-08 15:25:15 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And ironically enough, I've always been pretty self-sufficient in HighSec.


That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2771 - 2014-02-08 15:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.

…and for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2772 - 2014-02-08 15:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And ironically enough, I've always been pretty self-sufficient in HighSec.


That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.


What nullsec goods? I suppose I had to wait on the materials for an industrialist to get from the market to an assembly line to construct a Golem. So I am not self-sufficient? I see your point.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2773 - 2014-02-08 15:31:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.

…and for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).


So, what's the problem?

As far as I know, 99% of resources ARE available in null. People don't mine them often because the sandbox is what it is, and hauling resources from highsec is easier.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2774 - 2014-02-08 15:33:10 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.

…and for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).


So, what's the problem?

As far as I know, 99% of resources ARE available in null. People don't mine them often because the sandbox is what it is, and hauling resources from highsec is easier.


And now we get back to the point that we aren't talking about industry, but about sustainable personal income.

Which is quite separate from alliance level industrial activity. Hopefully you know this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2775 - 2014-02-08 15:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.

…and for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).


So, what's the problem?

As far as I know, 99% of resources ARE available in null. People don't mine them often because the sandbox is what it is, and hauling resources from highsec is easier.


And now we get back to the point that we aren't talking about industry, but about sustainable personal income.

Which is quite separate from alliance level industrial activity. Hopefully you know this.


So, you think nobody participates in industry for sustainable personal income?

Fascinating.

I bet those Titans just build themselves.

Not a single one has been sold for profit, ever. That's why I never see them and supers being sold on the forums....

OH WAIT, I see some for sale right now!!! Who built them? Is it a cheat or a hack?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2776 - 2014-02-08 15:35:23 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

So, you think nobody participates in industry for sustainable personal income?

Fascinating.

I bet those Titans just build themselves.


Didn't I even say "alliance level industrial activity"?

There's that reading comprehension thing again.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#2777 - 2014-02-08 15:35:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Which is quite separate from alliance level industrial activity. Hopefully you know this.

of course pinky hops knows this, pinky hops is a highsec producer capable of setting local buy orders for lowends, basically an expert
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2778 - 2014-02-08 15:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
So, what's the problem?
Oh for fucks sake. Roll
The problem is that null isn't nearly that self-sufficient for industry and that it does not offer the ability to live there and stay there to everyone else.

Quote:
As far as I know, 99% of resources ARE available in null.
No, and that's not what it's 99% of anyway. People don't provide the volume because the mechanics straight up prohibit it. Also, it's not what we're discussing since… you know… it's industry, not personal PvE income.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2779 - 2014-02-08 15:38:11 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
That's because you are relying on others who make it part of their sandbox experience to deliver resources and goods collected from nullsec to highsec for profits.

…and for null, that would be the 1% of industry that isn't covered by the self-sufficienty the region has to offer. As long as that 1% in for that one activity is covered by people doing cross-border trading, the rest are supposed to be able to never leave their home (much like how people are able to live in highsec and never leave their home).


So, what's the problem?

As far as I know, 99% of resources ARE available in null. People don't mine them often because the sandbox is what it is, and hauling resources from highsec is easier.


And now we get back to the point that we aren't talking about industry, but about sustainable personal income.

Which is quite separate from alliance level industrial activity. Hopefully you know this.


So, you think nobody participates in industry for sustainable personal income?

Fascinating.

I bet those Titans just build themselves.

Not a single one has been sold for profit, ever. That's why I never see them and supers being sold on the forums....

OH WAIT, I see some for sale right now!!! Who built them? Is it a cheat or a hack?


Of course, some people make ISK from industry but that is not what is being discussed. It had been discussed 100 pages ago.

For the last 100 pages we've pretty much narrowed the focus of the discussion to a blaring PVE income disparity. If you're interested in the industrial side of this discussion, page 30-something is back there.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2780 - 2014-02-08 15:39:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

So, you think nobody participates in industry for sustainable personal income?

Fascinating.

I bet those Titans just build themselves.


Didn't I even say "alliance level industrial activity"?

There's that reading comprehension thing again.


....What?

There's no special distinction here. It isn't magical.

"alliance level industry" is just a group if individual players working together to produce a bunch of stuff, and in return get individual income. IT'S A MIRACLE!!! ShockedRoll

You're putting some sort of special anti-emphasis on teamwork. I don't know if you know this or not, but working in groups allows you to do things that you wouldn't normally be able to do, and can be quite profitable.