These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2701 - 2014-02-07 23:12:31 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



Much like the popular forum talking point that has all 0.0 players owning a few dozen R64s? Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2702 - 2014-02-07 23:13:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



Much like the popular forum talking point that has all 0.0 players owning a few dozen R64s? Blink


Agreed! Too many generalizations on both sides sir.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2703 - 2014-02-07 23:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2704 - 2014-02-07 23:23:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Well I've long ago said that people in hi-sec should be able to have access to high end gameplay, just the same as anywhere else. As soon as we stop thinking about hi-sec as a place to primarily provide safety, and instead make it a place to provide convenience (with safety as a secondary and consequential effect), then we can unshackle it from the bad design decisions of a decade ago.


What does CCP think of that if you're allowed to tell?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#2705 - 2014-02-07 23:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Tauranon wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.


There are no structural reasons to be sure, but that still doesn't mean that everyone in HighSec is making 100m/hr on average. Just because they can does not mean that they do. They may prefer to full clear and salvage. They may not be motivated so much by the amount of ISK in their wallets. They may, for reasons unknown, prefer to fly overtanked and underDPS'd Battleships and Golems. Blink

If the objective of an adjustment is to get the NullSec denizens out of HighSec and back into SovNull to make their ISK, I believe you will have better luck with a carrot (e.g, LP as a supplement to bounties) than you would beating everyone in HighSec with a stick.

ED: Also Tauranon - I like the new avatar. Smile

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2706 - 2014-02-07 23:45:09 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.


There are no structural reasons to be sure, but that still doesn't mean that everyone in HighSec is making 100m/hr on average. Just because they can does not mean that they do. They may prefer to full clear and salvage. They may not be motivated so much by the amount of ISK in their wallets. They may, for reasons unknown, prefer to fly overtanked and underDPS'd Battleships and Golems. Blink

If the objective of an adjustment is to get the NullSec denizens out of HighSec and back into SovNull to make their ISK, I believe you will have better luck with a carrot (e.g, LP as a supplement to bounties) than you would beating everyone in HighSec with a stick.


If they aren't blitzing and/or making 100 mil an hour, how would they know there's been an adjustment in the 1st place?

As far as the carrot go, it's simply bad thinking to say "just buff null" when the problem wasn't caused by the design decisions made about null. The problems came from incursions being pre-neutered before being introduced (there is no logic behind CONCORD working in a HQ/AS/VG site) the old decision to have SOe and Thukker high sec agents that should have been revisited before the introduction of Freighters/Jump Freighters and wormholes , the buffing of exhumers that cause a shift in the hardwiring market and such.

I don't know what CCP is going to do but I trust they are at least aware of the bad effects some of their decisions have caused to their previously stated design goals for null sec.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2707 - 2014-02-08 00:07:45 UTC
btw Kimmi, some good mission running info tips and ideas

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=319358&find=unread
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2708 - 2014-02-08 03:13:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…or some such. For all their kvetching whenever their current activity gets adjusted, high-end PvEers are a surprisingly malleable crowd when it comes to figuring out equally (or better) high-paying income streams.


I wonder if there may be a misconceived generalization among non-highsec players about highsec players in that if some people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions then all people are making 110m ISK/hr running high sec missions.



There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.


There are no structural reasons to be sure, but that still doesn't mean that everyone in HighSec is making 100m/hr on average. Just because they can does not mean that they do. They may prefer to full clear and salvage. They may not be motivated so much by the amount of ISK in their wallets. They may, for reasons unknown, prefer to fly overtanked and underDPS'd Battleships and Golems. Blink

If the objective of an adjustment is to get the NullSec denizens out of HighSec and back into SovNull to make their ISK, I believe you will have better luck with a carrot (e.g, LP as a supplement to bounties) than you would beating everyone in HighSec with a stick.


If they aren't blitzing and/or making 100 mil an hour, how would they know there's been an adjustment in the 1st place?

As far as the carrot go, it's simply bad thinking to say "just buff null" when the problem wasn't caused by the design decisions made about null. The problems came from incursions being pre-neutered before being introduced (there is no logic behind CONCORD working in a HQ/AS/VG site) the old decision to have SOe and Thukker high sec agents that should have been revisited before the introduction of Freighters/Jump Freighters and wormholes , the buffing of exhumers that cause a shift in the hardwiring market and such.

I don't know what CCP is going to do but I trust they are at least aware of the bad effects some of their decisions have caused to their previously stated design goals for null sec.

I suspect their economist is hard at work...preparing another null nerf What?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2709 - 2014-02-08 03:59:15 UTC
Tauranon wrote:


There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.

Actually there is. Your 100m/hr figure is based off the best LP available. So if everyone ran it, that LP would tank into the gutter in short order.
So that 100m/hr figure is only possible for a few individuals to get while LP for their particular agents is at a very high price.
Pretty much it's robbing peter to pay paul more, then claiming because paul gets 'x' high sec needs a nerf.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2710 - 2014-02-08 04:37:55 UTC
Removed some off topic posts.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2711 - 2014-02-08 04:58:41 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tauranon wrote:


There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.

Actually there is. Your 100m/hr figure is based off the best LP available. So if everyone ran it, that LP would tank into the gutter in short order.
So that 100m/hr figure is only possible for a few individuals to get while LP for their particular agents is at a very high price.
Pretty much it's robbing peter to pay paul more, then claiming because paul gets 'x' high sec needs a nerf.


Sisters LP literally requires the stratios price, the launcher price and the probe price to all tank to tank that LP and the launcher/probe prices have never really tanked. In fact navy LP of items that I buy (gallente stuff) has risen over the "stratios" era. but please do tank it, you won't make an absolute fortune along the way. oh wait yes you will.

Literally the only thing saving us from the LP apocalypse is that the nestor either sucks or is extremely niche depending on your viewpoint.

On the subject of forsaken hubs, since there was much gnashing of now deleted teeth in the thread, I was lucky enough to day to get a "natural" forsaken hub spawn up (I can't easily get them bearing in mind my system and solo status).

I shot Bounty Prizes 23,933,231.25 ISK, first up attempt - I got an unfortunate 65km warp in and the all damage mod domi does many things, but moving aint one of them, so that is a warden II tick with gunnery in fall off. Some experiments were done that also didn't help, and I wouldn't do in the future if I was doing them regularly.

If I had an ongoing supply and further optimized the dominix, then yes I could plainly shoot 25m ticks reliably and thus 75m/hr including warps. The optimisations I would need are 2x5% damage implants and 2x fed navy magstabs.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2712 - 2014-02-08 05:05:24 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Tauranon wrote:


There are no structural reasons why people can't access 100m/hr average, and the same fundamental skillset that is required for me to shoot 60 in hubs or 100 in missions (even same equipment).

There are very real structural reasons in null why all people can't access all content.

IMO the time taken to earn the isks to fit out my ihub with arrays, get it out here etc > than time taken to run up sisters rep, so even that is kinda moot at least for someone moving a corp to null.

Actually there is. Your 100m/hr figure is based off the best LP available. So if everyone ran it, that LP would tank into the gutter in short order.
So that 100m/hr figure is only possible for a few individuals to get while LP for their particular agents is at a very high price.
Pretty much it's robbing peter to pay paul more, then claiming because paul gets 'x' high sec needs a nerf.


Sisters LP literally requires the stratios price, the launcher price and the probe price to all tank to tank that LP and the launcher/probe prices have never really tanked. In fact navy LP of items that I buy (gallente stuff) has risen over the "stratios" era. but please do tank it, you won't make an absolute fortune along the way. oh wait yes you will.

Literally the only thing saving us from the LP apocalypse is that the nestor either sucks or is extremely niche depending on your viewpoint.

On the subject of forsaken hubs, since there was much gnashing of now deleted teeth in the thread, I was lucky enough to day to get a "natural" forsaken hub spawn up (I can't easily get them bearing in mind my system and solo status).

I shot Bounty Prizes 23,933,231.25 ISK, first up attempt - I got an unfortunate 65km warp in and the all damage mod domi does many things, but moving aint one of them, so that is a warden II tick with gunnery in fall off. Some experiments were done that also didn't help, and I wouldn't do in the future if I was doing them regularly.

If I had an ongoing supply and further optimized the dominix, then yes I could plainly shoot 25m ticks reliably and thus 75m/hr including warps. The optimisations I would need are 2x5% damage implants and 2x fed navy magstabs.

Jump drive
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2713 - 2014-02-08 05:06:16 UTC
Launcher & Probe prices were around 2k, Not the current 3k. Never got why more people didn't SoE mission on that 2k price admittedly, but there you have it. So the current LP price is a direct & sharp response to the introduction of a new item that is popular. Which already has shown some signs of easing, and a new way of getting said items has also been introduced.

At 2k, Null clearly makes more per hour than high on standard missions, with the odd spike in high when you get the blitz runs, of course also the odd low when you get bad runs and can't decline them all to average it out. And if you implement the measures to stop mission blitzing such as locking gates till rooms are cleared, then that solves the blitz issue on the remaining missions it does work on. CCP already having solved a lot of the blitz missions and guide sites just not having updated.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2714 - 2014-02-08 05:30:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Launcher & Probe prices were around 2k, Not the current 3k. Never got why more people didn't SoE mission on that 2k price admittedly, but there you have it. So the current LP price is a direct & sharp response to the introduction of a new item that is popular. Which already has shown some signs of easing, and a new way of getting said items has also been introduced.

At 2k, Null clearly makes more per hour than high on standard missions, with the odd spike in high when you get the blitz runs, of course also the odd low when you get bad runs and can't decline them all to average it out. And if you implement the measures to stop mission blitzing such as locking gates till rooms are cleared, then that solves the blitz issue on the remaining missions it does work on. CCP already having solved a lot of the blitz missions and guide sites just not having updated.


people do gurista ports with drakes. People undock a single mackinaw in nullsec and fly it to a belt.

The fastest way for me to raise military index in my system is to shoot hidden dens at 6m a tick, and that thing doesn't like to escalate at all.

In order to actually determine what the most effective anomaly is, I had to run all of them, some types up to 300 times, because nobody has ever really documented escalation rates, and after 5 months, I'm still nowhere near finished, in fact all I've conclusively done is establish where the undocumented ones escalate too. Unfortunately the hidden den is plainly falling into the run it at least 300 times category too :(

ie actually optimizing your mission running is mostly just confounded with not knowing enough about fitting ships or lacking the skills to get the good ones, but is otherwise very easy to do.

Out here they don't tell you important stuff at all, and I still have entire categories of tactics to try.

And just to finish it all CCP, changed the order of processing of DT so that if your DT tick pops the system to military index 4, it will have already decided to give you military index 3 anomalies and not enable my very expensive and physically massive entrapment array 3 and 4. Its caught me twice now.
Aargolos
Estrale Frontiers
#2715 - 2014-02-08 05:49:48 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Well I've long ago said that people in hi-sec should be able to have access to high end gameplay, just the same as anywhere else. As soon as we stop thinking about hi-sec as a place to primarily provide safety, and instead make it a place to provide convenience (with safety as a secondary and consequential effect), then we can unshackle it from the bad design decisions of a decade ago.


What does CCP think of that if you're allowed to tell?



I'll second that, do tell (if you can).
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2716 - 2014-02-08 10:04:13 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
grr goons, i hate them goons


I'll wait till you can come back to the point of risk : reward being violated by highsec. This grr goons garbage you've cooked up can go it its own thread.


Woohoo, I got La Nariz to admit defeat!!

Hint: if you run out of arguments and your final stand is to just twist my words into something different, you lost.


Amusing, you've been doing this for the last couple of pages.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2717 - 2014-02-08 13:12:58 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Amusing, you've been doing this for the last couple of pages.


Show me where I edited somebody else's argument. I don't edit quotes. I shorten then sometimes so my posts aren't 394723974329 words long-- but I definitely don't edit them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2718 - 2014-02-08 13:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Pinky Hops wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Amusing, you've been doing this for the last couple of pages.

Show me where I edited somebody else's argument

Pinky Hops wrote:
Woohoo, I got La Nariz to admit defeat!!

I take it you lost since you ran out of arguments and your final stand was to just twist La Nariz' words into something different.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2719 - 2014-02-08 13:33:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Amusing, you've been doing this for the last couple of pages.

Show me where I edited somebody else's argument

Pinky Hops wrote:
Woohoo, I got La Nariz to admit defeat!!

I take it you lost since you ran out of arguments and your final stand was to just twist La Nariz' words into something different.


Wait, what?

He edited about five paragraphs into "grr goons."

How else can I interpret that other than him admitting defeat? I didn't edit his argument. I interpreted it.

There's a pretty big difference.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2720 - 2014-02-08 13:36:32 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Wait, what?

He edited about five paragraphs into "grr goons."
…or, to use your vernacular, he “shortened it” to a more pithy version.

Quote:
How else can I interpret that other than him admitting defeat?
By reading what he wrote and responding to it rather than invent your own interpretation and editing it in because you ran out of arguments and lost.