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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2641 - 2014-02-07 15:11:38 UTC
embrel wrote:

then why are some ready to pay rent for that space?

is it basically the case that sov-0 is only profitable if you're botting?

Otherwise this seems to be a bit of a paradox?


Some people like exclusivity and want to "claim" a system but, lack the ability to take a system. The easiest way for them to do that is to rent.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2642 - 2014-02-07 16:51:28 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
To answer the question of the OP...what would happen if CCP nerfed hi-sec. Goonies would get precisely what they are campaining for. Tell me how they can sit here and from one side of their mouth say yea pay me billions to come rent null-sec from me and all the while be trying to convience the comunity and CCP that hi-sec makes to much isk? They need hi-sec nerfed to hell to solidify their grasp not just over null-sec but the rest of the game.


We've wanted highsec income nerfed for years & have had a renting empire for less than 1 year. Explain to me again how this is a rental conspiracy?

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2643 - 2014-02-07 16:53:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
To answer the question of the OP...what would happen if CCP nerfed hi-sec. Goonies would get precisely what they are campaining for. Tell me how they can sit here and from one side of their mouth say yea pay me billions to come rent null-sec from me and all the while be trying to convience the comunity and CCP that hi-sec makes to much isk? They need hi-sec nerfed to hell to solidify their grasp not just over null-sec but the rest of the game.


Does it not occur to you that the fact that so much of null is good for nothing more than renting to some small or young group of pilots not make you understand the imbalance we've shown to you.

Do you not understand that if null was worth it null members would be LIVING there rather than allowing their alliances to rent to place out?

And who said "high sec" makes too much isk? We have continually said that the imbalance is that high sec isk making capabilites are so strong (and safe) that pragmatic gameplay virtually demands we make isk there and buy stuff there (while renting "our" space to fund alliance level activity) rather than truly "live" in our own space.

The scrub high sec guy running lvl 4s in a t1 raven isn't making too much isk. ME running lvl 4 sisters/thukker/republic fleet/ impetus etc missions in a machariel when that mach should only be able to make that kind of high end isk in null sec is the problem.

It's a problem that's bad for the game, and it is simply a selfish reaction from fearful high sec residents that keeps them from seeing how they too get screwed. A well balanced game benefits all it's players.


Can you not see it’s not about the individual? It’s an average of income from null vs. hi-sec over all. Not weather I can make a few more isk per hour blitzing a mission with a specific ship with a specific skilled pilot?

This is always a problem for you guys. You ALWAYS want to argue of anything but it’s easier to argue over specific items that are always not important as compared to the bigger picture.

CCP has the numbers. CCP has access to the numbers. CCP used those numbers to determine null needed a nerf.


Sitting here arguing over specifics won’t change the data CCP has or the fact they nerfed null-sec.

Goonies and CFC want hi-sec nerfed to strengthen their total control of null while lowering the potential of their enemies to recoup and regroup with the isk they need to replace ships. All this does is get them closer to over all control of Eve.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2644 - 2014-02-07 17:07:26 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Can you not see it’s not about the individual? It’s an average of income from null vs. hi-sec over all. Not weather I can make a few more isk per hour blitzing a mission with a specific ship with a specific skilled pilot?


That's exaclty what it's about, what an individual can do, becuase that's what INDIVIDUALs will do, the thing that works the best.

Which is why we have high sec alts instead of a much better balanced situation where the people making the good isk are alos in good danger (outside of high sec)

Quote:

This is always a problem for you guys. You ALWAYS want to argue of anything but it’s easier to argue over specific items that are always not important as compared to the bigger picture.

CCP has the numbers. CCP has access to the numbers. CCP used those numbers to determine null needed a nerf.[/quoite]

Null sec said null didn't need a nerf. The hypocricy of this situation is that your support of CCP will only last until the nerf high sec, at which you will not say "well, i guess high sec did need a nerf because CCP has the numbers".

Trust me, i'll be waiting for that day.

[quote]
Sitting here arguing over specifics won’t change the data CCP has or the fact they nerfed null-sec.

Goonies and CFC want hi-sec nerfed to strengthen their total control of null while lowering the potential of their enemies to recoup and regroup with the isk they need to replace ships. All this does is get them closer to over all control of Eve.


Confirming Hawkeye is spanish for Dinsdale. Prejudice blinds.

You probably believe that BS, but that's just you being in denial because you support an imbalance that's hurting the overall game.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2645 - 2014-02-07 17:58:34 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Can you not see it’s not about the individual? It’s an average of income from null vs. hi-sec over all. Not weather I can make a few more isk per hour blitzing a mission with a specific ship with a specific skilled pilot?

This is always a problem for you guys. You ALWAYS want to argue of anything but it’s easier to argue over specific items that are always not important as compared to the bigger picture.

CCP has the numbers. CCP has access to the numbers. CCP used those numbers to determine null needed a nerf.


Sitting here arguing over specifics won’t change the data CCP has or the fact they nerfed null-sec.

Goonies and CFC want hi-sec nerfed to strengthen their total control of null while lowering the potential of their enemies to recoup and regroup with the isk they need to replace ships. All this does is get them closer to over all control of Eve.


It is about the individual, no one is arguing about alliance incomes. Its because individual incomes are according to the data not adhering to risk : reward. This is all about an individual income when it comes to mid-range combat PVE.

Stoic's data shows Highsec: ~100m.

My data shows Nullsec: ~70m.

There's a problem and no one is trying to create a time machine to change past actions. We are pointing out an imbalance like we have many times in the past tech, drone assist, titan tracking, doomsdays, faction warfare, etc; and we want it fixed.

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Valandria Olgidar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2646 - 2014-02-07 18:08:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

Jenn, people aren't playing a game to do "their fair share" or "pull their own weight". This ISN'T a job! I don't play this game to work for anyone. I play this game to have fun.


Ah, the standard "it's all about me" high sec selfishness. Funny thing is, this sentiment is also why high sec can't seem to elect people to the CSM.

[/quote]
and wheres your problem?
you want others to play the game like you want it
because you think you have found the perfect way for you
sounds very selfish ....
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2647 - 2014-02-07 18:16:37 UTC
embrel wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Except her point is still right. High sec does not drive the economy because not enough stuff are lost there. Anytime lots of stuff are lost in high sec, it's because some idiot overloaded his freighter.
I didn't follow the numbers closely enough, but could imagine that not destruction is the primary driver of the economy, but the human tendency to hoard. you not only buy when you lost something but to have it.
How many ships do people actually hoard past a few of thier favorite models and then possibly one of each model for completeness of a collection? Do people really have hoards of ships and module just because? Or pre-fitted ships of all kind spraed all across the universe?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2648 - 2014-02-07 18:16:46 UTC
Valandria Olgidar wrote:

and wheres your problem?
you want others to play the game like you want it
because you think you have found the perfect way for you
sounds very selfish ....


No one is telling you how to play the game or what play styles are valid. Only that an imbalance is impacting nullsec play styles and that we want it fixed.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2649 - 2014-02-07 18:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Valandria Olgidar wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

Jenn, people aren't playing a game to do "their fair share" or "pull their own weight". This ISN'T a job! I don't play this game to work for anyone. I play this game to have fun.


Ah, the standard "it's all about me" high sec selfishness. Funny thing is, this sentiment is also why high sec can't seem to elect people to the CSM.


and wheres your problem?
you want others to play the game like you want it
because you think you have found the perfect way for you
sounds very selfish ....



I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Who said anything about how anyone plays? And why do high sec people always fall back on that?

There are multiple problems (imbalances) that we are talking about here and yet the high sec people are supporting them (by denying they exist in the 1st place.)

Fixing glaring broken things and imbalances might seem to hurt at 1st, but a wise person knows that the right fixes lead to better game play for everyone.

Having a discussion with high sec people (who have been coddled too long by CCP) about fixing a series of imbalances that lead to bad "big picture" consequences (like high sec pve alts and null that is only worth renting) is like trying to explain to a 17th century slave master why ending slavery might (to the short sighted) seem bad but would be better for society overall going forward and enable some truly great things that aren't possible under this broken status quo.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2650 - 2014-02-07 18:36:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


Can you not see it’s not about the individual? It’s an average of income from null vs. hi-sec over all. Not weather I can make a few more isk per hour blitzing a mission with a specific ship with a specific skilled pilot?


That's exaclty what it's about, what an individual can do, becuase that's what INDIVIDUALs will do, the thing that works the best.

Which is why we have high sec alts instead of a much better balanced situation where the people making the good isk are alos in good danger (outside of high sec)

Quote:

This is always a problem for you guys. You ALWAYS want to argue of anything but it’s easier to argue over specific items that are always not important as compared to the bigger picture.

CCP has the numbers. CCP has access to the numbers. CCP used those numbers to determine null needed a nerf.[/quoite]

Null sec said null didn't need a nerf. The hypocricy of this situation is that your support of CCP will only last until the nerf high sec, at which you will not say "well, i guess high sec did need a nerf because CCP has the numbers".

Trust me, i'll be waiting for that day.

[quote]
Sitting here arguing over specifics won’t change the data CCP has or the fact they nerfed null-sec.

Goonies and CFC want hi-sec nerfed to strengthen their total control of null while lowering the potential of their enemies to recoup and regroup with the isk they need to replace ships. All this does is get them closer to over all control of Eve.


Confirming Hawkeye is spanish for Dinsdale. Prejudice blinds.

You probably believe that BS, but that's just you being in denial because you support an imbalance that's hurting the overall game.

I am sure for you it will always be about the indivdual.....YOURSELF. As luck would have it CCP isnt only looking out for you.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2651 - 2014-02-07 18:40:14 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Can you not see it’s not about the individual? It’s an average of income from null vs. hi-sec over all. Not weather I can make a few more isk per hour blitzing a mission with a specific ship with a specific skilled pilot?

This is always a problem for you guys. You ALWAYS want to argue of anything but it’s easier to argue over specific items that are always not important as compared to the bigger picture.

CCP has the numbers. CCP has access to the numbers. CCP used those numbers to determine null needed a nerf.


Sitting here arguing over specifics won’t change the data CCP has or the fact they nerfed null-sec.

Goonies and CFC want hi-sec nerfed to strengthen their total control of null while lowering the potential of their enemies to recoup and regroup with the isk they need to replace ships. All this does is get them closer to over all control of Eve.


It is about the individual, no one is arguing about alliance incomes. Its because individual incomes are according to the data not adhering to risk : reward. This is all about an individual income when it comes to mid-range combat PVE.

Stoic's data shows Highsec: ~100m.

My data shows Nullsec: ~70m.

There's a problem and no one is trying to create a time machine to change past actions. We are pointing out an imbalance like we have many times in the past tech, drone assist, titan tracking, doomsdays, faction warfare, etc; and we want it fixed.

My data shows 120m for null -sec. How is my data more wrong than yours??

I can drop that into a spreadsheet if that will help.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2652 - 2014-02-07 18:51:32 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

I am sure for you it will always be about the indivdual.....YOURSELF. As luck would have it CCP isnt only looking out for you.


Yes they are, they gave me these Sisters missions to do so i don't have to risk my ship in null lol.

But you should stop projecting. I'm not the one seeking to maintain and unfair and broken status quo out of some misguide idea of profit. I make enough isk in Empire to plex 4 accounts, the selfish thing to do would be to not point out the imbalance that I benefit from.

Point blank, I just don't think you can understand what the problem is, and your biggest barriers are you dislike (prejudice) of goons and folks like me. A grown man should be able to rise above that kind of thing since we're talking about a video game.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2653 - 2014-02-07 19:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

My data shows 120m for null -sec. How is my data more wrong than yours??

I can drop that into a spreadsheet if that will help.


You never presented any data or a testing method but, sure more information the better.

First you can prove you actually are in nullsec:


CURRENT CORPORATION
State War Academy [SWA] from 2012.07.28 23:03 to this day


Next you can provide us your method in detail so literally anyone could repeat it.

Then yes present us a sheet.

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Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#2654 - 2014-02-07 19:08:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

I am sure for you it will always be about the indivdual.....YOURSELF. As luck would have it CCP isnt only looking out for you.


Yes they are, they gave me these Sisters missions to do so i don't have to risk my ship in null lol.

But you should stop projecting. I'm not the one seeking to maintain and unfair and broken status quo out of some misguide idea of profit. I make enough isk in Empire to plex 4 accounts, the selfish thing to do would be to not point out the imbalance that I benefit from.

Point blank, I just don't think you can understand what the problem is, and your biggest barriers are you dislike (prejudice) of goons and folks like me. A grown man should be able to rise above that kind of thing since we're talking about a video game.


Theres just as much dislike on the otherside, for people, like me, who operate alot in highsec. Im treated like filth and dirt and reading the forums makes it thunderously obvious as such. Because im not actively shooting ppl (but i fly in space and have been shot at and offered up my share of losses (and free isk esp to the guy who ninjalooted my last incursion loss, props to him for being bold and escaping the wrath of my alt).

Also, bringing forth the argument of "grown man" on these forums is kinda laughable. When 99% of it is virtual ego trash slinging with such dead end meaningless terms like "pubbie" and nub and all those words which dont exist anywhere except here, and urban dictionary. In such a cesspit trying to level onesself above the other and say "i am a better man" is pretty difficult. Im not even going to bother myself. Just thought i'd share that. Maybe if the disscussion was restarted, and every single post was created with rules and guidelines to ensure no meaningless rants, and no trash tossing.

However this is general discussion, such a thread here is a useless flame war anyway. so i'll sit back, load scorch and enjoy the show some more
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2655 - 2014-02-07 19:22:21 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:

Theres just as much dislike on the otherside, for people, like me, who operate alot in highsec. Im treated like filth and dirt and reading the forums makes it thunderously obvious as such. Because im not actively shooting ppl (but i fly in space and have been shot at and offered up my share of losses (and free isk esp to the guy who ninjalooted my last incursion loss, props to him for being bold and escaping the wrath of my alt).


This makes no sense, at what point are we talking about anyone disliking anything? And who care sif you don't shoot people. I rarely shoot other people, too busy clensing the world of Serpentis/guristas/angel rats mostly in high sec. No one treats me like "filth and dirt" but then I demonstrate an understanding of the (pvp based) game I'm playing so they leave me alone lol.

Quote:

Also, bringing forth the argument of "grown man" on these forums is kinda laughable. When 99% of it is virtual ego trash slinging with such dead end meaningless terms like "pubbie" and nub and all those words which dont exist anywhere except here, and urban dictionary. In such a cesspit trying to level onesself above the other and say "i am a better man" is pretty difficult. Im not even going to bother myself. Just thought i'd share that. Maybe if the disscussion was restarted, and every single post was created with rules and guidelines to ensure no meaningless rants, and no trash tossing.

However this is general discussion, such a thread here is a useless flame war anyway. so i'll sit back, load scorch and enjoy the show some more


Laugh all you like, I just find it a bit incredible that grown folks find the need to lie about things in a video game. If they can't be honest here, where can they?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2656 - 2014-02-07 19:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:

My data shows 120m for null -sec. How is my data more wrong than yours??

I can drop that into a spreadsheet if that will help.


You never presented any data or a testing method but


He doesn't need to when he's proving out point for us.

The point being that an imbalance exists, EVEN when you (as he claims) use a Capital ship (remember, he replied to me saying "who is using a sub cap?").

Using that capital only gains you (from his testing) an average of 120 mil an hour aka a whopping 20 mil extra isk per hour over what you can make with a sub capital ship in empire protected by crime watch and CONCORD.

The fact that it takes a Cap to make a little bit more than what a high sec sub cap can make demonstrates and even proves the screwed up nature of the current combat pve risk/reward scheme that we've been talking about

It's deliciously funny when they do that, like how my buddy Infinity ziona claimed that null was safer than high sec....and proved it (well, proved the opposite unfortunately Big smile ) by taking a unsoundly comedy shield fit proteus into null sec and killing 13 ratting ships (where as because of CONCORD that same proteus would not have been able to kill a single BC sized ship before popping, even in an 0.5 system)......

It like you do't even have to post because they'll win the argument for you. Twisted
Valandria Olgidar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2657 - 2014-02-07 19:55:47 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Valandria Olgidar wrote:

and wheres your problem?
you want others to play the game like you want it
because you think you have found the perfect way for you
sounds very selfish ....


No one is telling you how to play the game or what play styles are valid. Only that an imbalance is impacting nullsec play styles and that we want it fixed.


yes of course

but if this imbalance you see will be removed, it means that the games turns more in the direction you want right?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2658 - 2014-02-07 19:58:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's deliciously funny when they do that, like how my buddy Infinity ziona claimed that null was safer than high sec....and proved it (well, proved the opposite unfortunately Big smile ) by taking a unsoundly comedy shield fit proteus into null sec and killing 13 ratting ships (where as because of CONCORD that same proteus would not have been able to kill a single BC sized ship before popping, even in an 0.5 system)......


So would you say the rules are different between null sec and high sec?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2659 - 2014-02-07 20:05:01 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's deliciously funny when they do that, like how my buddy Infinity ziona claimed that null was safer than high sec....and proved it (well, proved the opposite unfortunately Big smile ) by taking a unsoundly comedy shield fit proteus into null sec and killing 13 ratting ships (where as because of CONCORD that same proteus would not have been able to kill a single BC sized ship before popping, even in an 0.5 system)......


So would you say the rules are different between null sec and high sec?


Sure they are, but the point is despite all data posted (like the dev blog detailing how low population null sec has so many more pvp deaths than high population high sec) the guy persisted in the claim of "null is safer than high sec". So he went out and tested it and killed multiple people with a crapfit ship. He still thinks null is "safer than high sec" despite the evidence.

What Hawkeye posted reminded me of Infinity in that his claims actually work to the benefit of the people he's arguing with, showing the inherent flaw in his thinking.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2660 - 2014-02-07 20:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
La Nariz wrote:
No one is telling you how to play the game or what play styles are valid. Only that an imbalance is impacting nullsec play styles and that we want it fixed.


For who? You? The 3 - 4 other people in this thread?

In fact, you're probably an alt one of the other crap posters repeatedly in this thread.

Having 3 - 4 alts and repeatedly bumping a thread doesn't turn this into a controversy of some kind. It just demonstrates you have enough free time to continuously bump a terrible thread until it is 130 pages long.

Most people I know would much rather see the sov system become fixed, rather than some lame/pathetic attempt to "balance" highsec with nullsec.