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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2561 - 2014-02-06 06:43:24 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
How about

1- Prevent blitzing by making all security mission require a clear grid before the mission is flagged successful or the required item can spawn/drop.

2- Randomize trigger ship so people can't just follow a strict procedural kill order.

This should reduce the LP/hours of missionning by preventing the stupid blitzing and mission count / hours since you cannot go full gank unless you want to risk getting 3 spawn in 3 NPC kill with a wet paper bag tank.



Hardly, with a 20mil SP Golem pilot I can basically park on the button in a blockade and full trigger, with furies I cut the DPS down JUST fast enough to maintain tank. This allows full clears within bounty ticks, full clears on Damsel and Gone Berserk are sub 15 minutes.

Doesn't take much tank to make a marauder preform, mine is a little blinged but only the hardeners (30mil a pop) and BCSs are actually faction.....no deadspace at all. The module fit is in the 300mil range.


Yes the spaceship purposebuilt for ubertanking has less trouble tanking through stuff. I don't really have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the current wet paper bag fit speeding through missing because a perfect kill order is known and they will be able to hold off exactly what is needed because it's a 100% known fact that X will spawn only after they kill Y so they can deal with Z, A, B, C, D and E and not being at risk of "surprise! 6 more BS on grid now instead of after you kill the 5 already present on grid".
Aargolos
Estrale Frontiers
#2562 - 2014-02-06 06:44:34 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Aargolos wrote:
Good point(s).

So what's my motivation to get out of carebear land?

Yeah, its boring as **** all. I can fly anything Matari but command ships...just need training time and I can fly everyone's carriers and dreads.

I read Jester's blog and TMC regularly. Caps up for IT ONLY TOOK ME X AMOUNT OF YEARS TO FIGURE OUT EVE ONLINE.

So many Rifters burned, so, so many.

What's the next logical step? I'm almost a 100m sp pilot, I ate **** for the first 2 years of EvE. How does one go from whoring lvl 4 missions to null sec? If it makes a difference, I have Logit V :burritos:

Nope, don't want to fly a Titan or SC, just have more fun.

Where CCP has failed is explaining that jump from me, to you, in player terms.


Your motivation should be vast fortunes out in null/low/WH and things you can't do in highsec. Death2allsupercaps would help with nullsec activities. I'll try and find it there was a post on TMC about what would do what you asked for nullsec. It says it better than I can.


Sounds great, I'll keep an eye on this thread.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2563 - 2014-02-06 06:51:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Yes the spaceship purposebuilt for ubertanking has less trouble tanking through stuff. I don't really have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the current wet paper bag fit speeding through missing because a perfect kill order is known and they will be able to hold off exactly what is needed because it's a 100% known fact that X will spawn only after they kill Y so they can deal with Z, A, B, C, D and E and not being at risk of "surprise! 6 more BS on grid now instead of after you kill the 5 already present on grid".



Did you miss the full clear thing?

For Damsel, I basically land, nuke Krull, blast the battleships then take the Garden to 20% so that it dual spawns and continue from there.

Blitzing would be coming in, nuking the garden from 100km away ...no more no less... and then MJDing down to the cargo and boning out.

Same with the blockade, I don't bother with kill order unless I actually am full blitzing, I generally park it and blast battleships, with furies I have enough DPS to take the heavy hitters off the field so it basically goes BS > elite cruiser swap to faction ammo elite frigs > cruisers > whatever the drones haven't killed yes

To blitz hit the highest value......and make sure you are a LONG way off.




The Golem is NOT built to tank, we are talking T2 booster and amp and a whopping 5 minutes of cap to run it all, flushed with BCSs and all application rigs.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2564 - 2014-02-06 06:54:48 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Kimmi Chan was kind enough to provide me with a link to stoicfaux's thread here, and also data that Kimmi Chan collected here.

The more or less consistent message from these 2 sources I see is that non-SOE level 3-4 missions can earn 30-60 million isk/hr.

Looking at the information from La Nariz, provided here, we see that an anom running ishtar can earn 65-75 million isk/hr. No data for carrier ratting has yet been provided, but given how increasingly often it is occurring in eve, I'd wager they make a wee bit more than the ishtar.

I suspect, given these figures, that rather than a blanket nerf to hisec, it is mainly SoE missions that may need some adjustment. This is also something CCP has alluded to. Whether the current changes that CCP applies to SoE missions will be sufficient is questionable.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2565 - 2014-02-06 06:59:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Yes the spaceship purposebuilt for ubertanking has less trouble tanking through stuff. I don't really have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the current wet paper bag fit speeding through missing because a perfect kill order is known and they will be able to hold off exactly what is needed because it's a 100% known fact that X will spawn only after they kill Y so they can deal with Z, A, B, C, D and E and not being at risk of "surprise! 6 more BS on grid now instead of after you kill the 5 already present on grid".



Did you miss the full clear thing?

For Damsel, I basically land, nuke Krull, blast the battleships then take the Garden to 20% so that it dual spawns and continue from there.

Blitzing would be coming in, nuking the garden from 100km away ...no more no less... and then MJDing down to the cargo and boning out.

Same with the blockade, I don't bother with kill order unless I actually am full blitzing, I generally park it and blast battleships, with furies I have enough DPS to take the heavy hitters off the field so it basically goes BS > elite cruiser swap to faction ammo elite frigs > cruisers > whatever the drones haven't killed yes

To blitz hit the highest value......and make sure you are a LONG way off.




The Golem is NOT built to tank, we are talking T2 booster and amp and a whopping 5 minutes of cap to run it all, flushed with BCSs and all application rigs.


What if Krull death could spawn the battleship instead of taking the Garden to 20% after removing a few BS from grid? Would it change anything?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2566 - 2014-02-06 07:02:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Yes the spaceship purposebuilt for ubertanking has less trouble tanking through stuff. I don't really have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the current wet paper bag fit speeding through missing because a perfect kill order is known and they will be able to hold off exactly what is needed because it's a 100% known fact that X will spawn only after they kill Y so they can deal with Z, A, B, C, D and E and not being at risk of "surprise! 6 more BS on grid now instead of after you kill the 5 already present on grid".



Did you miss the full clear thing?

For Damsel, I basically land, nuke Krull, blast the battleships then take the Garden to 20% so that it dual spawns and continue from there.

Blitzing would be coming in, nuking the garden from 100km away ...no more no less... and then MJDing down to the cargo and boning out.

Same with the blockade, I don't bother with kill order unless I actually am full blitzing, I generally park it and blast battleships, with furies I have enough DPS to take the heavy hitters off the field so it basically goes BS > elite cruiser swap to faction ammo elite frigs > cruisers > whatever the drones haven't killed yes

To blitz hit the highest value......and make sure you are a LONG way off.




The Golem is NOT built to tank, we are talking T2 booster and amp and a whopping 5 minutes of cap to run it all, flushed with BCSs and all application rigs.


What if Krull death could spawn the battleship instead of taking the Garden to 20% after removing a few BS from grid? Would it change anything?


No, Killing Krull already spawns more battleships. in a blitz you don't even bother with Krull you nuke the garden get the loot and leave.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2567 - 2014-02-06 07:08:14 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Yes the spaceship purposebuilt for ubertanking has less trouble tanking through stuff. I don't really have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the current wet paper bag fit speeding through missing because a perfect kill order is known and they will be able to hold off exactly what is needed because it's a 100% known fact that X will spawn only after they kill Y so they can deal with Z, A, B, C, D and E and not being at risk of "surprise! 6 more BS on grid now instead of after you kill the 5 already present on grid".



Did you miss the full clear thing?

For Damsel, I basically land, nuke Krull, blast the battleships then take the Garden to 20% so that it dual spawns and continue from there.

Blitzing would be coming in, nuking the garden from 100km away ...no more no less... and then MJDing down to the cargo and boning out.

Same with the blockade, I don't bother with kill order unless I actually am full blitzing, I generally park it and blast battleships, with furies I have enough DPS to take the heavy hitters off the field so it basically goes BS > elite cruiser swap to faction ammo elite frigs > cruisers > whatever the drones haven't killed yes

To blitz hit the highest value......and make sure you are a LONG way off.




The Golem is NOT built to tank, we are talking T2 booster and amp and a whopping 5 minutes of cap to run it all, flushed with BCSs and all application rigs.


What if Krull death could spawn the battleship instead of taking the Garden to 20% after removing a few BS from grid? Would it change anything?


No, Killing Krull already spawns more battleships. in a blitz you don't even bother with Krull you nuke the garden get the loot and leave.


But I added the fact you need to clear grid before loot can spawn/drop. You can't MJD loot and warp out if my idea was applied because whatever is supposed to be there didn't spawn because the grid was not clear.

Now of course you could still kill everything from long range in relative safety but it's still much slower than blitzing it.

If I go with your klill order instead of the blitz one, you could get Kill Krull > stuff spawn, kill 1st BS before garden > more **** spawn already, kill 2nd BS before you kill garder > yet another mass of **** spawn. Can you still just shrug off the damage or are we slowly getting to a point where the tank capability of a marauder will be taxed?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2568 - 2014-02-06 07:12:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If I go with your klill order instead of the blitz one, you could get Kill Krull > stuff spawn, kill 1st BS before garden > more **** spawn already, kill 2nd BS before you kill garder > yet another mass of **** spawn. Can you still just shrug off the damage or are we slowly getting to a point where the tank capability of a marauder will be taxed?



Doing the two dual spawns in pushing it with a marauder, a T3 or HAC can accomplish it basically without getting scratched, depending on range, they are only worried about small things.

This is why you can run 10/10s solo in an Ishtar, the friggin things can basically ignore 19 battleships at a time while you are clearing off the elite frigs and damp cruisers.
stoicfaux
#2569 - 2014-02-06 08:08:19 UTC
Side note: you can still make 50+M per hour in assets blitzing level 3s in an Ishtar post Rubicon 1.1: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4200292#post4200292

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#2570 - 2014-02-06 08:32:52 UTC
Let me pour some more fuel on the fire with a few premature numbers. I've been running level 4s in a vargur in a "kill all" mode (i.e. not blitzing) to test how much "liquid" isk level 4s can generate to contrast with null-sec anom income.

After 2.5 hours, I've earned 171M isk in isk, loot, and salvage. Of that 171M isk, 110M is liquid isk. 171M / 2.5 = ~68M isk in assets per hour. That's not counting LP.

However, before anyone screams omg_nerf_it!, in that 2.5 hours I only ran seven missions. 2xAE, Mordus Headhunters, Silence the Informant, Pirate Invasion, and Slavers 1 & 2. Seven missions isn't enough to make any claims yet.

I'll post more when I have more data. Assuming my eyes and soul have stopped bleeding.


Work, Family, Sleep, Eve. Pick three.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2571 - 2014-02-06 08:43:17 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Work, Family, Sleep, Eve. Pick three.
Three? Weakling. Just pick EVE. P
Josef Djugashvilis
#2572 - 2014-02-06 08:44:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Null-sec is so terrible and worthless, that a small part of it would never be fought over by some 7,000 or so pilots.

The real isk in Eve is made by the skilled traders, (for whom I have great respect) who can rat - mission etc with less risk is pretty immaterial in the overall scheme of things.

This is not a signature.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2573 - 2014-02-06 11:25:01 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Null-sec is so terrible and worthless, that a small part of it would never be fought over by some 7,000 or so pilots.


Well, at least part of that is because it's fun. Remember fun?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#2574 - 2014-02-06 11:38:56 UTC
If you live in Vale you can do a few jumps and run missions in Venal. There are L4 agents and the LP store isn't bad at all.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2575 - 2014-02-06 11:51:03 UTC
Good Posting wrote:
If you live in Vale you can do a few jumps and run missions in Venal. There are L4 agents and the LP store isn't bad at all.


There are less NPCs killed at each of the Venal L4 mission agents daily than I personally kill in my system, and the player shiploss in those systems is massive compared to my system. I have an alt located at Serpentis prime and can vouch for having to spend long periods of time not running missions, and nil other mission runners.

In any case we are discussing Sov Null which requires *effort* to capture and hold, and requires cost and effort to upgrade.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2576 - 2014-02-06 11:54:38 UTC
Uh, wtf are you on about Tauranon.

1. If you are going to provide numbers, provide solid references including links please to verifiable sources.
2. WTF are you on about, you splurged a bunch of numbers which explain nothing and are making no point.

All I was saying was that regardless on which side of the Null vs High Income debate people are on, pretty much all of us debating in this thread are in agreement that the current NUMBER of people that can make a living from a single system at the same time is not in a good place, and that enabling a larger density of players at the same time would be a good thing.
As I believe Null is fine income wise, I don't see that it should change the hourly rate per player, though obviously overall more would be earned in said system.

Higher density also makes it much easier to have guards, use the ESS to maximum effect, and makes it possible to reship inside system to fight a roaming gang rather than have to try and pull people from several systems away.
It also means that there is more chance someone will be a little slow giving the roaming gang a target as well.
So much as I don't want to see individual income change in Null, I can only see good things from more people at once being able to make a living in null together.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2577 - 2014-02-06 12:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Uh, wtf are you on about Tauranon.

1. If you are going to provide numbers, provide solid references including links please to verifiable sources.
2. WTF are you on about, you splurged a bunch of numbers which explain nothing and are making no point.

All I was saying was that regardless on which side of the Null vs High Income debate people are on, pretty much all of us debating in this thread are in agreement that the current NUMBER of people that can make a living from a single system at the same time is not in a good place, and that enabling a larger density of players at the same time would be a good thing.
As I believe Null is fine income wise, I don't see that it should change the hourly rate per player, though obviously overall more would be earned in said system.



Not at all. Taking GENTS, they hold 57 systems, for 3050 characters = 50 characters per system. If everyone logged on for 2 hours a day (evenly spread), they'd have a character depth of 4 characters per system. They literally don't use half of their systems for personal income. Stick your ingame map to military level and see for yourself.

Quote:


Higher density also makes it much easier to have guards, use the ESS to maximum effect, and makes it possible to reship inside system to fight a roaming gang rather than have to try and pull people from several systems away.
It also means that there is more chance someone will be a little slow giving the roaming gang a target as well.
So much as I don't want to see individual income change in Null, I can only see good things from more people at once being able to make a living in null together.


Higher density into individual systems means no reason to fight. No population pressure on each other. If 100 people could fit into JZV and rat, that is literally where every PBLRD character that was online in peak could go and rat. We'd have 60 buffer systems surrounding it!

The actual reason that I have to fight with anyone in Vale, is because Infinity space has 1000 characters over its related entities and 9 systems, ie their system fill is more like 110, and because of the way signatures work, they empty their space of signatures and their probers therefore hunt them in surrounding space - ie SOCT and PBLRD space. Even at 110 they have ample ratting space, they just run out of signatures, because they don't control the space the respawns go to (the whole of gurista null).

Whilst I might not like them doing that, that is exactly what the game needs to have happen - you want more people in every null system, you do not want more people stacked into the 1 null system, surrounded by massive buffer lands.

The ESS is just an artifact of not having sufficient people and group attracting content. It is a step in the right direction sure, but it actually sucks, because its a tack on to a system that sucks.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2578 - 2014-02-06 12:25:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Uh, wtf are you on about Tauranon.

1. If you are going to provide numbers, provide solid references including links please to verifiable sources.
2. WTF are you on about, you splurged a bunch of numbers which explain nothing and are making no point.


evemaps.dotlan.net

has maps with sov, regions, and you can click on holders to see their population. I've proportioned Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere based on the fact that not all Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere space is in Vale.

Seriously I don't need to provide links to all that, 4500 characters is a reasonable estimate of the population of the Vale entities, and You can look up ingame stats on the ingame map to see the relative pilots in space in the last 30 minutes at any time of your choosing.
Good Posting
Doomheim
#2579 - 2014-02-06 12:31:48 UTC
But GENTS never leave TVN.

Well yeah, jb from TG to 3HX and rat there. Then jb back to TVN and wait for a ping, goon deployment news... whatever.
There are many good empty systems to rat or explore there. Tauranon, i lived in Vale, Tribute and Deklein for a long time.
Josef Djugashvilis
#2580 - 2014-02-06 13:22:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Null-sec is so terrible and worthless, that a small part of it would never be fought over by some 7,000 or so pilots.


Well, at least part of that is because it's fun. Remember fun?


Of course I do dear chap.

Your posts are great fun to read and laugh at Smile

Oh, and the multiple threads about how the fight was not fun, how does that work then?

If I could just bring myself to put up with the chest beating ego trips of some null sec folk, I would love to take part in a massive fight, even with TiDi.

This is not a signature.