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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#2421 - 2014-02-05 19:45:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


If your region is too dangerous for PVE, then your alliance sov holdign is FAIl and is proof that NULL SEC is the one that needs nerfing, because you can hold territory taht you do not effectively control


it's not to dangerous for PVE. It's more dangerous than high sec for pve.

When I'm in an incursion fleet flying a machariel (which i do when I get bored fo the basilisk) I'm wrapped in wool, in an npc corp (can't be war decced), protected by CONCORD AND 12 logistics ships. If we only run 3 HQ sites per hour I end up making more than using the same ship in null sec (a mach in null can do 90 mil an hour in bounties, 3 hq sites in high sec is 94.5 mil + 21k CONCORd LP). That ship in null has to fight for flee is someone comes at it.

When I'm running SOE or Thukkrr missions, I'm in a Machariel that if it gets suicide ganked it maybe drops 200 mil worth of loot ie no one is going to gank me. PLUS CONCORD and an NPC corp.. That same mach simply needs to BE in null sec for someone to take a shot at it. No one can make me dock or safe up in high sec.

It shouldn't be that way. There should not be a nearly equal option in high sec to make isk. When I started playing, there was almost nothing you could do in high sec that would pay out like that except high sec lvl 5s and that was a bug, you had to at least go to NPC null for that kind of isk. The CCP put in jump frieghters (which made nomad implants gold) Incursions, and wormholes (wormholes + the dumbing down of exploration had the side effect of making SOE LP VERY valuable).

Null sec did get buffed in Dominion...then quickly nerfed again. It's not impossible to make isk in null, plenty of people do, but the smart people do their thing in high sec where they can't be disrupted. High Sec either needs less safety, or less lucratvie combat PVE.


Belt ratting is the worst activity you can do in null for isk and faction spawns are far too rare and not worth enough to make any difference in isk/hr.

Belt ratting is one of the worst activities you can do for isk and faction drops are so rare they make no impact on isk/hr

I agree that null should pay better then high sec. Based on your compare it looks like everything is correct... Unless my info is out of date it's been awhile simce I've played.

A well organized incursion fleet is going to take time to set up and will not always be available. You can't count this as a steady consistant stream of income and should be as profitable or slightly more then null do to the extra work involved.

Belt ratting offers the chance of deadspace space drops which make it far more profitable then just 90m/hour.

I don't think any mission running in high sec can compete with 90m in bounties...

Null also offers better exploration sites, better mining sites, better pi sites. There is a ton more money coming in from null sec then high sec, don't know to many high sec corps that can afford titans like penny candies.

Not sure what the issue is?


I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2422 - 2014-02-05 20:16:47 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).


How in the high hells and hellsville did you come to that conclusion lol? I don't think there would be 836 people in The Valhalla Project's (TVP) chat channel for elss than 20 mil isk per hour (hell, one HQ site per hour is better isk than belt ratting a fully condition system's belts).

Quote:

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Not true at all. And it doesn't Take Sisters of EVE or Trust partners (Thukker) missions to cross that threshold. Regualr mission agents from industrial corps (with the right hardwirings in their LP stores) can get you there or close to it.

Where are you getting your information from? Also 90 mil an hour from anoms is what you get from a carrier or pirate BS, i have yet to see a T1 BS clear 30 mil ticks, and this after years of experimenting with everything including a blaster mega in both Serpentis and Guristas space.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2423 - 2014-02-05 20:32:10 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

There's another angle you can take to this. If you create a game where null earns 2x as much as highsec how could you ever hope to challenge the monolithic null block? How would it be possible to beat a massive entity that is so well financed that even their individual members are rich without the help of their corp? That kind of setup would create a handful of power blocks who would then become entrenched and the game would stagnant to the point it would decline in userbase. So if you disagree with my observation I would like it if you could explain how a highsec corp with nerfed income could hope to challenge a monolithic group capable of sending nearly endless waves of top of the line ships against them.

Also how would you deal with the massive isk faucet that would be null at that point? Currently if you follow the words of people here highsec LP is a massive sink.


EDIT : Clearly there are people in null already making over 2x what people in highsec are doing. How do you keep those people from making even more while still giving other members a boost?


The RL comparison stuff is crap for a number of reasons I won't get into.

Isk does not mean power (out side of market shenanigans) no matter how much isk you spend on that cruiser or frigate it can still be destroyed by someone in something cheaper than what you are flying. Its part of how we originated, we flew in our terribly fit rifters and destroyed the entrenched enriched most powerful nullsec bloc of the time.

Breaking into null is all about strategy and the problem right now is most groups that want in or fail to get in neglect one key portion of their strategy. Diplomacy, so many people fail at diplomacy it is amazing, this game requires social skills to compete which is something setting it apart from almost all of the other MMOs to date.

So reducing highsec reward won't make null impossible to break into.

Have we come up with a better idea yet than reducing L3/L4 and transfering the reduced portion to L5, L2, and L1?

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2424 - 2014-02-05 20:36:46 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Look at the sheet in my sig, it shows how much you can make doing mid-range combat PVE, nullsec L4s, Stoic provided data about highsec income, it boils down to:

Highsec: ~100m isk/hr

Nullsec: ~70m isk/hr

Whoever told you that about belt ratting is not telling the truth right now it is the worst form of nullsec combat pve to the point it could be used as a negative control to compare incomes.

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2425 - 2014-02-05 21:16:52 UTC
Quote:


We have shown you that high sec will earn you more isk than in null and how to do it. Why do you think that it is perfectly fine for the most risk free areas of space to give better rewards than one of the most risky?

Risk free? So no one gets ganked in hi-sec any more?
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2426 - 2014-02-05 21:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
La Nariz wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Look at the sheet in my sig, it shows how much you can make doing mid-range combat PVE, nullsec L4s, Stoic provided data about highsec income, it boils down to:

Highsec: ~100m isk/hr

Nullsec: ~70m isk/hr

Whoever told you that about belt ratting is not telling the truth right now it is the worst form of nullsec combat pve to the point it could be used as a negative control to compare incomes.


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2427 - 2014-02-05 21:20:14 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Yea the forum went nuts on me and I gave up.

Belt ratting is the most terrible form of isk making in null sec. It wont come anywhere near even level 3 income and we tell our newbees to not bother doing it.

Level 4s in high sec have been shown in this thread to make 118 mil isk/hr or 101 mil/hr without the warp speed implants.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2428 - 2014-02-05 21:25:39 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Quote:


We have shown you that high sec will earn you more isk than in null and how to do it. Why do you think that it is perfectly fine for the most risk free areas of space to give better rewards than one of the most risky?

Risk free? So no one gets ganked in hi-sec any more?


The most risk free

Read before you post.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2429 - 2014-02-05 21:27:19 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


There is nothing that will get you that amount from anoms, please post what ship you are using, its fittings, any implants and provide the same details that we have done in the spreadsheet that you still most likely have not yet read.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2430 - 2014-02-05 21:32:55 UTC
I managed 60M ISK/hr belt ratting when I was in null sec for almost two weeks. Sadly my stint there were cut short by one of the directors of my corporation insulting one of the guys from CO2 and I logged in to find we were 17 hours through our 24 hour eviction notice. Yay Nullsec!

There's another issue I'd like to raise: there's far too much focus on "risk vs reward." If that was the only measure of how high an income should be, running a freighter through lowsec should surely be the highest paying career in the game. So please think about what you're saying. There's also effort vs reward, and intelligence vs reward: there should be opportunities to exploit which reward people who know what to look for.

Note too that mining in null sec is relatively dangerous, but ends up being the same value as mining in high sec because there are so many people extracting resources for which there is little demand. Mining doesn't scale, and there's no way to increase the reward of mining based on how risky or labour-intensive it is. Mining is a low-intelligence operation, so it has a low reward.

I'm looking forward to seeing how FW's "Sov Lite" gets translated into "Null Sov". The mechanisms provide ample opportunity for roaming gangs to look for fights scaled to their fleet: no longer will a roaming cruiser gang have to contend with being hot dropped by carrier loads of sentry drones.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2431 - 2014-02-05 21:51:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


There is nothing that will get you that amount from anoms, please post what ship you are using, its fittings, any implants and provide the same details that we have done in the spreadsheet that you still most likely have not yet read.


You caught the lie too. I honest to God don't see why anyone feels the need to do this. Hell, Vindicators in Guristas space have trouble maintaining 35 mil ticks (105 mil an hour).

I too would like to see this magical 120 mil an hour sub cap.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2432 - 2014-02-05 22:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Look at the sheet in my sig, it shows how much you can make doing mid-range combat PVE, nullsec L4s, Stoic provided data about highsec income, it boils down to:

Highsec: ~100m isk/hr

Nullsec: ~70m isk/hr

Whoever told you that about belt ratting is not telling the truth right now it is the worst form of nullsec combat pve to the point it could be used as a negative control to compare incomes.


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


My information is true but, your information on the other hand:

CURRENT CORPORATION
State War Academy [SWA] from 2012.07.28 23:03 to this day

You are not present on evekill, battleclinic, or zkill killboards. You are not in nullsec and you do not rat in nullsec.

Provide full API to prove otherwise.

E: You also still have not looked at my sheet so you don't even know what it says.

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Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#2433 - 2014-02-05 22:19:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).


How in the high hells and hellsville did you come to that conclusion lol? I don't think there would be 836 people in The Valhalla Project's (TVP) chat channel for elss than 20 mil isk per hour (hell, one HQ site per hour is better isk than belt ratting a fully condition system's belts).

Quote:

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Not true at all. And it doesn't Take Sisters of EVE or Trust partners (Thukker) missions to cross that threshold. Regualr mission agents from industrial corps (with the right hardwirings in their LP stores) can get you there or close to it.

Where are you getting your information from? Also 90 mil an hour from anoms is what you get from a carrier or pirate BS, i have yet to see a T1 BS clear 30 mil ticks, and this after years of experimenting with everything including a blaster mega in both Serpentis and Guristas space.


Sorry my fault I miss understood when you said bounties. I used to have a couple friends that would rat belts in null and make over 70m/hour in bounties. I just assumed that was still the beginner pve in null and what you were doing, anoms are pretty much the same thing as belt rats used to be though correct? Steady guaranteed income with the small chance at a big faction or officer loot drop?

Does my question make sense if you switch belt ratting with anom running?

Sorry if all this doesn't make sense i'm trying to piece together what i know of l4 and what people tell me of null. I must just be bad at l4 running because i'm lucky if i make 40m/hour in bounties + rewards + lp. I tried to open the link from the other guy but couldnt get it to open on my phone.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2434 - 2014-02-05 22:23:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
I managed 60M ISK/hr belt ratting when I was in null sec for almost two weeks. Sadly my stint there were cut short by one of the directors of my corporation insulting one of the guys from CO2 and I logged in to find we were 17 hours through our 24 hour eviction notice. Yay Nullsec!

There's another issue I'd like to raise: there's far too much focus on "risk vs reward." If that was the only measure of how high an income should be, running a freighter through lowsec should surely be the highest paying career in the game. So please think about what you're saying. There's also effort vs reward, and intelligence vs reward: there should be opportunities to exploit which reward people who know what to look for.

Note too that mining in null sec is relatively dangerous, but ends up being the same value as mining in high sec because there are so many people extracting resources for which there is little demand. Mining doesn't scale, and there's no way to increase the reward of mining based on how risky or labour-intensive it is. Mining is a low-intelligence operation, so it has a low reward.

I'm looking forward to seeing how FW's "Sov Lite" gets translated into "Null Sov". The mechanisms provide ample opportunity for roaming gangs to look for fights scaled to their fleet: no longer will a roaming cruiser gang have to contend with being hot dropped by carrier loads of sentry drones.



Risk : reward is the balancing metric, the higher the risk the higher the reward. The quantitative metric we have to asses reward is isk/hr. Intelligence and effort should be given a place but, we don't have a way of putting those into a quantitative metric. Its much more effort to operate in a more risky area than it is to operate in a less risky area so I feel effort is a non-factor in balance but, a huge factor in design. By design I mean there's a different balance for designing mechanics that needs to be adhered to the best example I can think of is the sov system effort : reward is a huge consideration and a reason that sov wars don't occur as often. Intelligence I think is its own factor, you can be not intelligent at all and mine the crappiest ore forever or be extremely intelligent and manipulate the market of that crappy ore. I think its more of a factor of individual play styles than anything else.

To add more to your example:

Mining in highsec is far less effort and risk than in nullsec. Mining in nullsec is far more effort and risk than in highsec. I think they run hand in hand most of the time. The highsec miner can AFK happily and maybe be ganked 3-4 times a year while the nullsec miner must be in some kind of communication medium to receive updates from their intel channels. Also that nullsec miner has to figure out how to get their materials to highsec for sale since nullsec manufacturing is in shambles.

The highsec miner has one thing to worry about, their ore hold filling. The nullsec miner has to worry about logistics, safety, and their ore hold filling. I think effort is best left out of the equation, if it were to be included highsec income would have to approach zero because it is far more effort to do any activity in more risky areas.

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Jaksa Gryfita
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2435 - 2014-02-05 22:24:34 UTC
I think its good how it is. Because players have choice if they want high sec, or low sec. Apparent safety or danger. Or just where beginers can exist and dont be massacred by older players so easy. CCP keep good balance, so one group or ideology dont get everything only because "we want, and give us".
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2436 - 2014-02-05 23:00:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Quote:
We have shown you that high sec will earn you more isk than in null and how to do it. Why do you think that it is perfectly fine for the most risk free areas of space to give better rewards than one of the most risky?
Risk free? So no one gets ganked in hi-sec any more?
The most risk free Read before you post.
So the most risk free? Then this would obviously br null-se
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2437 - 2014-02-05 23:03:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I think you messed up the quotes but i gathered that belt ratting was the worst way to make isk in null. Yet the guy I was replying to said he makes 90m/hour in bounties alone.

I'm not saying your wrong or high sec doesn't need a nerf because I don't have all the numbers so I don't know for sure. My question is why do you feel it needs a nerf when the lowest form of null sec income (belt ratting) is roughly equal to the highest form of high sec income (incursions).

Carebearing Level 4s with bounty + rewards + lp will be significantly less then 90m/hour as well.


Look at the sheet in my sig, it shows how much you can make doing mid-range combat PVE, nullsec L4s, Stoic provided data about highsec income, it boils down to:

Highsec: ~100m isk/hr

Nullsec: ~70m isk/hr

Whoever told you that about belt ratting is not telling the truth right now it is the worst form of nullsec combat pve to the point it could be used as a negative control to compare incomes.


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


My information is true but, your information on the other hand:

CURRENT CORPORATION
State War Academy [SWA] from 2012.07.28 23:03 to this day

You are not present on evekill, battleclinic, or zkill killboards. You are not in nullsec and you do not rat in nullsec.

Provide full API to prove otherwise.

E: You also still have not looked at my sheet so you don't even know what it says.

My toon is in your corp tbh Shocked
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#2438 - 2014-02-05 23:04:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:


This is not accurate or true. Anyone who does both knows this. I make over 120m isk per/hr in null just in anoms alone.


There is nothing that will get you that amount from anoms, please post what ship you are using, its fittings, any implants and provide the same details that we have done in the spreadsheet that you still most likely have not yet read.


You caught the lie too. I honest to God don't see why anyone feels the need to do this. Hell, Vindicators in Guristas space have trouble maintaining 35 mil ticks (105 mil an hour).

I too would like to see this magical 120 mil an hour sub cap.

Who said I was using a sub cap? Like you I can make up any number I want...wait just now got 150m per/hr
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2439 - 2014-02-05 23:05:58 UTC
Jaksa Gryfita wrote:
I think its good how it is. Because players have choice if they want high sec, or low sec. Apparent safety or danger. Or just where beginers can exist and dont be massacred by older players so easy. CCP keep good balance, so one group or ideology dont get everything only because "we want, and give us".


How is it good balance when you earn more in high sec than in null sov?
Anslo
Scope Works
#2440 - 2014-02-05 23:06:57 UTC
Less nerfs moar incentives. Incentives create content! Nerfs cause threads like this...

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