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Tier 3 Sniper fleets - which one would you field?
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
#41 - 2011-11-11 16:26:58 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.


No, they wouldn't mess up Hellcats, too much EHP to reliably alpha unless you're talking an ungodly amount of Tornados and no long-range DPS is going to be enough to break the kind of reps Hellcats usually have.



Well - they lose roughly 20% of their alpha @100 km. The fitting I used does ~11800 alpha at optimal. so they would hit for about 9000 Alpha at 100km.

Assuming the Abaddon pilot is decently skilled, doesn't use implants and is T3 boosted and there's no Erebus present, the hellcat should be at around what? 150-170k EHP. So my assumption would be that 20 - hell - make it 25 - of them alpha a Hellcat reliably at 100 km. A range at which a scorch hellcat with two optimal scripted TCII's will hardly damage them at all, without any realistic chance to get closer to optimal.

I wouldn't call 25 an ungodly amount - and on a side note: Which alliance widely uses alphafleet and welpfleet as fleet concepts again?

Right - not exactly one known for its small numbers - and they all have large T2 arties and BCs trained to perfection already.


Also, if any gang gets a warpin and bubbles them, I guess quite a few would die, but then, these things are fast, doing ~2400 m/s with an overheated MWD, so my guess would be that most would manage to burn out of the bubbles and warp off...

(but it certainly would make for fun bombing runs)



Hellcats will **** up the new BCs so fast its not funny, ditto for alphaamels.

They wouldn't even need to call targets because a single BS can shred through a new BC's HP in what , 3 volleys ? Not much more certainly. My guess is that the FC calls to lock alphabetically (or similar) and free-fire. Even with regular primary/secondary/tertiary calling, all three will be dead in the same time it takes to alpha one BS.

HP seriously matters at sniper ranges if the other guys are shooting too. It just point blank does. In those fights, who ever has the high combined EHP will win if they have the same damage output.

The guys with more EHP lose ships slower, and thus maintain damage longer, which in turn means that the lower ehp side loses their damage faster and faster until there is nothing left.

Long range BS kill the new ships HARD.


Reading comprehension ftw...

Alphamaels will shred them, granted - so will artybaddons. However, a max skilled hellcat with scorch and 2 optimal range scripts loaded wont do any damage at the suggested range at all and wont be able to get into range.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Noisrevbus
#42 - 2011-11-11 16:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Valea Silpha wrote:
Honestly, I think that y'all are getting too crazy for the new ships.

While they might be better than sniper hacs on raw numbers, their longer lock times and comedy tracking are significant disadvantages. I'm not saying the new ships aren't going to be good in that role, but you'd be well advised to mix them into an existing sniper HAC fleet than take them out by themselves, simply because they'll miss a lot of things both missing locks because of warp outs and not applying their damage because of transversal.

Also, its worth remembering that sniper HACs haven't been in fashion for a long time because alphamales and hellcat fleets hurt them so bad, and they'll do just as well against the new BCs in sniper fits. No matter what ships you are in, you unlikely to be doing any serious fighting in a low ehp long range ship. Sure there's times when one shotting a guy on a station or what have you is great, but thats not really fighting, its ganking.

Sniper HACs would probably have to run from sniper BCs, but they'd both have to run from proper BS, and the new BCs will be comically awful against anything that manages to get on top of them. HACs can at least shoot back and expect to hurt things, while BS have drones and five times the EHP to save them, while the new BCs won't be doing any damage back AND dying like flies. If someone manages to land a dictor and a dozen damage ships on top of you, they'll kill you're whole gang without any losses. HACs at least kill some of the others and the BS have a decent chance to survive and run away.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the numbers on paper are great, but eve has largely moved on from glass cannons. The only place that the new BCs in sniper fits will be useful is when they are definitely not going to have to fight. And if that's the case you could bring a hundred ibis and be equally successful.


I belive you are overthinking it.

The problem with these new ships isn't that they'll do something new and troublesome, or conversely that they won't shake things up enough. The problem is that they will obsolete existing options and wreck an existing balance between role and value for isk-risk. The ships they'll contend with are the old Sniper HACs and Sniping BC. To some degree certain lighter BS-concepts and other HAC-roles as well.

Fleet trend:
You are on the right track when you talk about sniping as a fashion (likely something that caught CCP's eyes as well, and is a fundamental part of why these new ships are introduced, and the reason they look the way they do). Though i think most people would argue that the profileration of sniping-BC (ie., Podla/Darkside Drakes, Alpha Canes etc.) pre-emptively took LR-HAC out of trend (while AHAC and Hellcats in turn were responses to that later development). Point being, when you can get almost the same effect, with other advantages on the side at much less the price; you will see change in popularisation.

As with most HAC, LR-HACs have remained among groups who have the resources, play at a certain scale and want to retain the slight advantages provided in the class. This is where you fall off track though, because the problem with these new ships is that there isn't any left over advantages in the HAC while they also usurp the other BC in the same role. There is no such tracking advantage you speak of for medium LR in regard large LR using different ammunition at similar ranges, while they retain the speed and reach some people would pay to maintain an advantage with through the HAC.

Tactical background:
In essence, they get the reach-speed advantage of LR HAC over LR BC with the cost-effect and possible ground for repopularization of the LR BC over the LR HAC. Short term that effect will be positive, long term it will be stifling as you will put high risk offensive quality in the hand of larger groups with resources to waste (as has also already been noted with the Goon reference). Drake-gangs were a nuisance enough in counteracting emergent gameplay by how that development stifled HAC-gangs (when larger established groups realized they only needed high quality in the scaffolding support ships to counter most popular roaming concepts when they had the added weight of numbers [rfr. it's not really the Drake that killed SHAC/NHAC roaming, it's the realization of what proper use of Logi and LR-tackle Recon do in combination; that the roaming gangs used against "the blob" years before adaptation]).

Summary:
That there will be no larger use for LR HAC or BC is a problem. That these new ships will poop a bit on Drake-dominance over the BC class in larger size brackets and breathe some life back in the tactics you usually refer to "LR HAC" is probably intended from the dev camp. That these new ships will have little impact on current fleet trend, beyond offering better or more support-options, is probably also calculated internally at CCP. That's also where my standpoint errupt, because in the end, the single largest impact these new ships will have is shift further advantage to numerical advantage - something that deflates the game's political life as it is. The end goal of CCP's "new deal" is afterall to bring life back into the game - this is a quite shallow and fickle move with long-term repercussions they'll need spend more to time to fix to counter-balance at a later stage.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2011-11-14 10:26:44 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
I wouldn't call 25 an ungodly amount - and on a side note: Which alliance widely uses alphafleet and welpfleet as fleet concepts again?

Right - not exactly one known for its small numbers - and they all have large T2 arties and BCs trained to perfection already


The alliance that can consistently get the 3:1 numbers advantage it takes to make arties work against Scorch. And times when they don't have 3:1, they lose. It's almost as if you need a numerical advantage for large artillery to shine against Scorch L.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#44 - 2011-11-14 23:28:45 UTC
Large,
Would you mind sharing the fits you used to make the graphs?
I couldn't get the Tornado anywhere near that DPS level.

Another dumb question concerning the Tier3 BC vs BS from someone who has 0 experience with sniping in that range...
What's the advantage to using the BC?
I can see it's faster so that would help you to maintain that range for longer.
More agile so you could GTFO faster when they warp-in on you.
Obviously cheaper.
Is that it?

I was thinking lock-time, but with a BS you get more Targeting-range or more mids, so you can compensate by fitting scan-res scripts.
BSs typically do more dmg too.
Obviously BS has way more EHP.

Is the extra speed really that important?
Not trolling, just don't know.
Thanks.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-11-15 00:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Large,
Would you mind sharing the fits you used to make the graphs?
I couldn't get the Tornado anywhere near that DPS level.


Inconsequential really, its going to be a zerg game,


Sydney Nelson wrote:

Another dumb question concerning the Tier3 BC vs BS from someone who has 0 experience with sniping in that range...
What's the advantage to using the BC?


Speed, Speed and more Speed.....oh did I mentions speed, and a side of agility.

Sydney Nelson wrote:

I can see it's faster so that would help you to maintain that range for longer.


Indefinitely is more the term, there isn't a single BS short of a Machariel that can run down a Tornado. In snipe gangs, you warp in begin walking down the primary line while aligning and then warp to another tac where you do the same thing, OR if you have heavy tackle(or a bubble) and they can't get out bounce off a tac safe and return and do it again.

This works in Battleships with 14 second align times, its going to crazy with a 5 second align time.

Assume they have a prober, the reason you try to fight aligned is because it takes a recon pilot literally about 10 second to dump a couple probes and get a one ping warp in at 150km and below....again a fleet of R/R BS's takes 20 seconds to align and warp, nano's around 12 with the MWD lit and 8/9 with it off.

Tornadoes align in like 6 without at nano.

So even if they do warp, they are landing in slow ass battleships and stop and you are overheated to 2400m/s you are out of tackle range before they lock, and aligning to be somewhere else....oh and likely knock out another ship or two while you are at it.


Sydney Nelson wrote:

I was thinking lock-time, but with a BS you get more Targeting-range or more mids, so you can compensate by fitting scan-res scripts.


Fit scan range scripts and you can't lock far enough to hit back, and even then a single SeBO with a scan res script on a BS isn't going to compete with the lock time of a BC locking a BS, the sig radius sizes are to different.

Sydney Nelson wrote:

BSs typically do more dmg too.


On SiSi my 1400mm arty Tornado was within 15% of of my 1400mm Arty Mael on live.

...and yes,the speed is just that important.
Elsa Nietchize
Doomheim
#46 - 2011-11-15 00:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsa Nietchize
making high damage cheep ships available to the game brings pvp to the masses.
if you're cadari specced and your doctrine is alpha maels, you got some training to do.
if it's alpha tornadoes, you can probably s**t fit it within a week.
i, for one, welcome our node destroying alpa BC overlords
think of how many of these bad boys you can fit and field for a mere bil
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2011-11-15 01:17:18 UTC
To answer the original question: I'd field Naga's because em dmg torps are so ******* pretty, for serious.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-11-15 02:29:28 UTC
First of all. I'm of the Opinion that the ORACLE is the better alpha and damage per second platform compared to the Tornado. At-least when engagement range scale. Has twice the tracking of artillery, damage application and projection. While, I like the Naga and Talos for sniping. They're not in the same class as the ORACLE and maybe the Tornado. All are very good snipers. I'm not sure why you would use heavy assault cruisers with these around, but whatever.

You will at-least see fleets of both.

6,000 per volley, 900 damage per second. 7 second duration. That is about 2 1/3 shots between artillery (Tornado) volleys.

[Oracle, Gods Light]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
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Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
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Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
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Medium Ancillary Current Router I
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vorneus
Hub2
#49 - 2011-11-15 12:45:57 UTC
So people are arguing that the new tier 3 BS's outperform sniper muninns, zealots and eagles. A valid concern.

But hang on, what about the deimos?

Well that's outperformed by the aforementioned 3 sniperhacs, and also by the new Talos.. which is in turn largely outperformed by the other tier 3 BC's.

Cool! :D

.. but also disappointing.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#50 - 2011-11-15 17:22:47 UTC
Onictus,
Thanks for the explanation.
I figured it was speed/align-time, but just wanted to be sure.
Zeomebuch Nova
Undrinkable Grog Inc.
#51 - 2011-11-16 02:46:38 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.


No, they wouldn't mess up Hellcats, too much EHP to reliably alpha unless you're talking an ungodly amount of Tornados and no long-range DPS is going to be enough to break the kind of reps Hellcats usually have.



Well - they lose roughly 20% of their alpha @100 km. The fitting I used does ~11800 alpha at optimal. so they would hit for about 9000 Alpha at 100km.

Assuming the Abaddon pilot is decently skilled, doesn't use implants and is T3 boosted and there's no Erebus present, the hellcat should be at around what? 150-170k EHP. So my assumption would be that 20 - hell - make it 25 - of them alpha a Hellcat reliably at 100 km. A range at which a scorch hellcat with two optimal scripted TCII's will hardly damage them at all, without any realistic chance to get closer to optimal.

I wouldn't call 25 an ungodly amount - and on a side note: Which alliance widely uses alphafleet and welpfleet as fleet concepts again?

Right - not exactly one known for its small numbers - and they all have large T2 arties and BCs trained to perfection already.


Also, if any gang gets a warpin and bubbles them, I guess quite a few would die, but then, these things are fast, doing ~2400 m/s with an overheated MWD, so my guess would be that most would manage to burn out of the bubbles and warp off...

(but it certainly would make for fun bombing runs)



Hellcats will **** up the new BCs so fast its not funny, ditto for alphaamels.

They wouldn't even need to call targets because a single BS can shred through a new BC's HP in what , 3 volleys ? Not much more certainly. My guess is that the FC calls to lock alphabetically (or similar) and free-fire. Even with regular primary/secondary/tertiary calling, all three will be dead in the same time it takes to alpha one BS.

HP seriously matters at sniper ranges if the other guys are shooting too. It just point blank does. In those fights, who ever has the high combined EHP will win if they have the same damage output.

The guys with more EHP lose ships slower, and thus maintain damage longer, which in turn means that the lower ehp side loses their damage faster and faster until there is nothing left.

Long range BS kill the new ships HARD.


Yeah, I expect your FC jumping a whole fleet of faster sniper ships than your BS standard crap at 48 <= range so hellcats can do the job... He would win the welp medal.

Meanwhile IRG(in real game), fleet of 20 tornados taking all your logi within 15 secs with mwd on (lol winmatar) aligned to opposite direction.

Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#52 - 2011-11-16 06:08:52 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
im just wonderin...what are HAC's gonna be used for now?

the ONLY role i can think of now is probably medium range AB amour HAC gangs with logi support. there is literally nothing else for these guys to do. going up against a bunch of Tier 3 BC's at 100km is suicide.


couple inty rush up - HACs warp to fleet to them and unload... they have not tank and once tackled I can see it very very one sided - Tier 3 have to kite or die, and having messed with them on SISI love the Tornado and the Oracle - but they do have very litle defense - glass cannons - HACs are a very different ship, as my HAM II/SAC shows - it tanks very well and in and I might even say it could take a tornado 1v1... have to test that on SISI this week.
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