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Tier 3 Sniper fleets - which one would you field?
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Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-11-09 00:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Large Collidable Object wrote:

To my surprise, with rail changes, the Talos and Naga are on par with the Oracle, however.
Using extreme glass cannon fits with four tracking comps and three mag field stabs, the Naga outperforms both the Talos and Oracle (if they use full damage/range fits), but of couse is no match for the tornado in all regards mentioned above.


Not trying to dispute this, but i'm wondering what your exact fits were, including ammunition. I've been prodding the stupid naga with a lot of instruments lately and this is the first i've seen of it matching another tier3 bc for dps at a sub-grid-warp range.

Large Collidable Object wrote:
First one who guesses the Tornados colour right gets a hug :).


Red, but I defer my hug to CCP Tallest. He needs it more at this point.
draconothese
Independant Celestial Enterprises
#22 - 2011-11-09 00:29:59 UTC
well if the max ingame lock range mega has anyhting to say about it i vote telos those rails have crazy ranges when set up right
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#23 - 2011-11-09 00:37:48 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:



Yeah - the Tornado is nice - other than snipers, I enjoyed toying around with an 100mn AB fit with the new Hail.

Having that said, I was hoping the new Tier 3 BCs being a subcap category in which Minmatar don't dominate for once.

To clarify what I mean - here's a DPS graph for comparable fit tier 3 BCs shooting at a stationary Talos (all largest tier long range weapons, DCII, 3 damage mods each (two on the Naga), 10mn MWD, Sensor booster 2 with range script, TCs and weapon rigs as they fit).


First one who guesses the Tornados colour right gets a hug :).


Ergh, please don't tell me that massive red line at the top is the Winmattar line X

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#24 - 2011-11-09 00:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:


I've been prodding the stupid naga with a lot of instruments lately and this is the first i've seen of it matching another tier3 bc for dps at a sub-grid-warp range.



Large Collidable Object wrote:

To clarify what I mean - here's a DPS graph for comparable fit tier 3 BCs shooting at a stationary Talos (all largest tier long range weapons, DCII, 3 damage mods each (two on the Naga), 10mn MWD, Sensor booster 2 with range script, TCs and weapon rigs as they fit).


Concerning the Naga fit, The one used in the graph is this:

[Naga, medrangea]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge L

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Not saying it's any good - just wanted to quickly throw together some relatively comparable fits concerning tank and speed. It would do better in the graph with another hybrid locus coordinator, but even with auxiliary thrusters, it's already ~150 m/s slower than the rest. It would also hugely profit from ditching the DC II for another MFS II - but as I said - it's just a fit for comparison.

All the fits range from 1558 to 1723 m/s speed with a non OH MWD and 12301 to 13271 EHP.




Wacktopia wrote:


Ergh, please don't tell me that massive red line at the top is the Winmattar line X



Of course it is.

Well - at least the people saying that Projectiles are not overpowered can't tell you to 'look at the Tornado'. So they can just be nerfed as a whole.

At the ranges i specified in this thread, they're not that overpowered in the actual DPS graph and the overall DPS are evened out when tracking comes into play - but then, it's by far the most cap stable fit, providing ridiculous alpha (3-4x as much as any other type), and allowing for free choice of damage type.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-11-09 01:22:21 UTC
Thanks for clearing that up.

Large Collidable Object wrote:

Wacktopia wrote:


Ergh, please don't tell me that massive red line at the top is the Winmattar line X



Of course it is.

Well - at least the people saying that Projectiles are not overpowered can't tell you to 'look at the Tornado'. So they can just be nerfed as a whole.

At the ranges i specified in this thread, they're not that overpowered in the actual DPS graph and the overall DPS are evened out when tracking comes into play - but then, it's by far the most cap stable fit, providing ridiculous alpha (3-4x as much as any other type), and allowing for free choice of damage type.


Inb4Liang.
Gul Amarr
Orange County Cruisers
#26 - 2011-11-09 22:36:54 UTC
Would be interesting to see sniper fleets of those types going toe to toe. Tornados would annihilate all the others because a single one could single volley all of them, whilst the others would need four volleys.

Not to mention the tornado not only having vastly superior alpha, but also overall DPS.

I guess the others will remain unused for this type of fleet, which would end up in tornado blobs single volleying each other.
The onkly interesting bit about it is the fact that it obsoletes target calling in these types of engagements.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#27 - 2011-11-09 22:56:24 UTC
Alpha > everything else = Tornado > everything else

It's not their fault, after all they're just victims. Lol
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2011-11-10 14:13:57 UTC
Artynado

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-11-10 14:43:55 UTC
It's pretty sad...

For sniper fleets - Tornado
For fast kiting - Tornado
For mid range gank - Tornado
For CR - Tornado

Why do we have 3 other races of ships again? What?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2011-11-10 14:49:53 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
It's pretty sad...

For sniper fleets - Tornado
For fast kiting - Tornado
For mid range gank - Tornado
For CR - Tornado

Why do we have 3 other races of ships again? What?


To have something to complain about until the world ends in 2012?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-11-10 15:18:03 UTC
Honestly, I think that y'all are getting too crazy for the new ships.

While they might be better than sniper hacs on raw numbers, their longer lock times and comedy tracking are significant disadvantages. I'm not saying the new ships aren't going to be good in that role, but you'd be well advised to mix them into an existing sniper HAC fleet than take them out by themselves, simply because they'll miss a lot of things both missing locks because of warp outs and not applying their damage because of transversal.

Also, its worth remembering that sniper HACs haven't been in fashion for a long time because alphamales and hellcat fleets hurt them so bad, and they'll do just as well against the new BCs in sniper fits. No matter what ships you are in, you unlikely to be doing any serious fighting in a low ehp long range ship. Sure there's times when one shotting a guy on a station or what have you is great, but thats not really fighting, its ganking.

Sniper HACs would probably have to run from sniper BCs, but they'd both have to run from proper BS, and the new BCs will be comically awful against anything that manages to get on top of them. HACs can at least shoot back and expect to hurt things, while BS have drones and five times the EHP to save them, while the new BCs won't be doing any damage back AND dying like flies. If someone manages to land a dictor and a dozen damage ships on top of you, they'll kill you're whole gang without any losses. HACs at least kill some of the others and the BS have a decent chance to survive and run away.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the numbers on paper are great, but eve has largely moved on from glass cannons. The only place that the new BCs in sniper fits will be useful is when they are definitely not going to have to fight. And if that's the case you could bring a hundred ibis and be equally successful.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-10 16:08:47 UTC
Not to mention CR armor hacs would completely destroy these BCs.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2011-11-10 16:14:44 UTC
Valea Silpha wrote:
Honestly, I think that y'all are getting too crazy for the new ships.

While they might be better than sniper hacs on raw numbers, their longer lock times and comedy tracking are significant disadvantages. I'm not saying the new ships aren't going to be good in that role, but you'd be well advised to mix them into an existing sniper HAC fleet than take them out by themselves, simply because they'll miss a lot of things both missing locks because of warp outs and not applying their damage because of transversal.

Also, its worth remembering that sniper HACs haven't been in fashion for a long time because alphamales and hellcat fleets hurt them so bad, and they'll do just as well against the new BCs in sniper fits. No matter what ships you are in, you unlikely to be doing any serious fighting in a low ehp long range ship. Sure there's times when one shotting a guy on a station or what have you is great, but thats not really fighting, its ganking.

Sniper HACs would probably have to run from sniper BCs, but they'd both have to run from proper BS, and the new BCs will be comically awful against anything that manages to get on top of them. HACs can at least shoot back and expect to hurt things, while BS have drones and five times the EHP to save them, while the new BCs won't be doing any damage back AND dying like flies. If someone manages to land a dictor and a dozen damage ships on top of you, they'll kill you're whole gang without any losses. HACs at least kill some of the others and the BS have a decent chance to survive and run away.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the numbers on paper are great, but eve has largely moved on from glass cannons. The only place that the new BCs in sniper fits will be useful is when they are definitely not going to have to fight. And if that's the case you could bring a hundred ibis and be equally successful.


so how do you expet you go top of them ? as they are as fast as the hac-s and can run mwd for longer
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#34 - 2011-11-10 21:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Valea Silpha wrote:
Honestly, I think that y'all are getting too crazy for the new ships.


Not really - but they're the first new pvp ships since apocrypha, so to see them being discussed a lot is quite natural. Personally, I plan to get one of each to play around with them for a little and then have them sit in my hangar as collectors items, as I'm not really into fleet pvp.

Most of what you say is true and I don't think they are OP as a class (at least in their current iteration). Anyway - this thread is rather about their balance against each other than their balance against other ships.

Quote:

Basically, what I'm saying is that the numbers on paper are great, but eve has largely moved on from glass cannons. The only place that the new BCs in sniper fits will be useful is when they are definitely not going to have to fight. And if that's the case you could bring a hundred ibis and be equally successful.


I'd say it depends - I wouldn't want to use them as a solo close range brawler since their low tank and relatively bad tracking aren't particulary what I'd be looking for when fitting one. Hence I came up with the role depicted in the OP.

Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-11-10 21:25:52 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.


No, they wouldn't mess up Hellcats, too much EHP to reliably alpha unless you're talking an ungodly amount of Tornados and no long-range DPS is going to be enough to break the kind of reps Hellcats usually have. Probably good against Drakes, as long as you were willing to concede the field when they were sitting at a bounce with probes out and dictors ready to warp ontop of you.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#36 - 2011-11-10 21:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.


No, they wouldn't mess up Hellcats, too much EHP to reliably alpha unless you're talking an ungodly amount of Tornados and no long-range DPS is going to be enough to break the kind of reps Hellcats usually have.



Well - they lose roughly 20% of their alpha @100 km. The fitting I used does ~11800 alpha at optimal. so they would hit for about 9000 Alpha at 100km.

Assuming the Abaddon pilot is decently skilled, doesn't use implants and is T3 boosted and there's no Erebus present, the hellcat should be at around what? 150-170k EHP. So my assumption would be that 20 - hell - make it 25 - of them alpha a Hellcat reliably at 100 km. A range at which a scorch hellcat with two optimal scripted TCII's will hardly damage them at all, without any realistic chance to get closer to optimal.

I wouldn't call 25 an ungodly amount - and on a side note: Which alliance widely uses alphafleet and welpfleet as fleet concepts again?

Right - not exactly one known for its small numbers - and they all have large T2 arties and BCs trained to perfection already.


Also, if any gang gets a warpin and bubbles them, I guess quite a few would die, but then, these things are fast, doing ~2400 m/s with an overheated MWD, so my guess would be that most would manage to burn out of the bubbles and warp off...

(but it certainly would make for fun bombing runs)
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-11-11 01:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Alpheias wrote:
To have something to complain about until this era ends in 2012?


Fixed 4U

OMAGAD THE END OF THA WORLD

looks interesting
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-11-11 04:51:25 UTC
D: I want a good Naga please. I like to listen to people talk about things I don't know about but please talk about how good the Naga will be even if it is not true. Thank you!

Ferox #1
To mare
Advanced Technology
#39 - 2011-11-11 05:09:39 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
im just wonderin...what are HAC's gonna be used for now?

the ONLY role i can think of now is probably medium range AB amour HAC gangs with logi support. there is literally nothing else for these guys to do. going up against a bunch of Tier 3 BC's at 100km is suicide.



that's is the first thing i said when they released those new BCs
all the munin zealot eagle are now useless
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-11-11 11:45:04 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Imho, above fleet concept could easily mess up Hellcats and would absolutely stomp Drakeblobs if used properly.


No, they wouldn't mess up Hellcats, too much EHP to reliably alpha unless you're talking an ungodly amount of Tornados and no long-range DPS is going to be enough to break the kind of reps Hellcats usually have.



Well - they lose roughly 20% of their alpha @100 km. The fitting I used does ~11800 alpha at optimal. so they would hit for about 9000 Alpha at 100km.

Assuming the Abaddon pilot is decently skilled, doesn't use implants and is T3 boosted and there's no Erebus present, the hellcat should be at around what? 150-170k EHP. So my assumption would be that 20 - hell - make it 25 - of them alpha a Hellcat reliably at 100 km. A range at which a scorch hellcat with two optimal scripted TCII's will hardly damage them at all, without any realistic chance to get closer to optimal.

I wouldn't call 25 an ungodly amount - and on a side note: Which alliance widely uses alphafleet and welpfleet as fleet concepts again?

Right - not exactly one known for its small numbers - and they all have large T2 arties and BCs trained to perfection already.


Also, if any gang gets a warpin and bubbles them, I guess quite a few would die, but then, these things are fast, doing ~2400 m/s with an overheated MWD, so my guess would be that most would manage to burn out of the bubbles and warp off...

(but it certainly would make for fun bombing runs)



Hellcats will **** up the new BCs so fast its not funny, ditto for alphaamels.

They wouldn't even need to call targets because a single BS can shred through a new BC's HP in what , 3 volleys ? Not much more certainly. My guess is that the FC calls to lock alphabetically (or similar) and free-fire. Even with regular primary/secondary/tertiary calling, all three will be dead in the same time it takes to alpha one BS.

HP seriously matters at sniper ranges if the other guys are shooting too. It just point blank does. In those fights, who ever has the high combined EHP will win if they have the same damage output.

The guys with more EHP lose ships slower, and thus maintain damage longer, which in turn means that the lower ehp side loses their damage faster and faster until there is nothing left.

Long range BS kill the new ships HARD.
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