These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Incentive to play?! Give me more.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Jaraida
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-11-07 23:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
Hi guyz!

Yes, this is going to be a "Increase SP gain" topic, just from a different view and with a different Idea.
I will summarize every important point I make with short TL,DR: sentences. They are going to be underlined too. If you want to give feedback to this, please read them atleast.

I am no troll, and I want to provide feedback about EvE. Im playing EvE for something arround 1 year in total, divided over 2 or 3 years. I am liking this game how it is. (very important point) I'm just thinking it could be so much better.

So, first of all:

The goals in EvE. Basically there are 3 of them. Having fun, get rich and farm KB stats while enjoying PvP.
I will not take trading and exploring into account, just because trading is -> Having fun + get rich. Exploring is actually get rich too, just because there is no point in exploring something which is allready explored.

Yes, get all skills ist not accepted either, because I believe EvE is long dead before anyone would have the theoretical chance to max out all skills and you can't "work" on that point anyway.

This 3 "goals" in EvE are not enough. That's the reason why EvE playerbase is small. Character progression was allways a very important point (the most for me) in RPG-type games. EvE has no active way for this. That's the reason why pretty much every accepted F2P MMO has more players than EvE has. (Take a look on Runes of Magic, a german only game with 5 million players, or LotrO) This breakes down to my first

TL,DR: Valuable character progression -> one huge incentive to play - > Success. (This is true for so many successful games)

I know you're all thinking: " We had this allready, it caused stupid behaviour! (i.e. grinding)", and I have to disagree here.
Lets take WoW as an example. You guys think: "Oh my gawd, WoW players are stupid, they like grinding!", but this is simply not true.

The mainpart on character progression in WoW is not leveling up. The character progression comes from Items. (leveling to max level is done in 10 days, endgame-content and character progression lasts throughout a whole expansion and every new content patch)
If you don't know this, you are simply uninformed. WoW - players like to progress with their characters, simply because it gives "shiny - loot" (we all love shinys!) and because it is catered in a new cloth everytime the next content patch hits the liveserver. The combination of character progress and new content which comes along with it, makes players liking WoW.
At this point, I would like to grab a very, very important counter-argument out of this Thread. "SP are compared with level up in WoW". This point is simply wrong. SP is compared to Itemprogression in WoW. The difference in here is: WoW character-progression is fun, character-progression in EvE is clearly NOT. I know this, you all know this. Even CCP knows. (remember this specific "EvE is Real" - Video? Every EvE player has to laugh about "Exiting leveling system" which is commented with a "skill-training completed! hilarious :D or the various CCP-Joke-Ads for "new players")

I know you think WoW players are a bunch of idiots (to be honest, a lot of them are), but they are not simply grinding for stupid reasons. They simply like the way of character progression which comes along with the content providing it. And EvE needs a bit of this to become a better game for all of us.

Tl,DR: Exiting character progression - > Even more success.

< to be continued >
Jaraida
Doomheim
#2 - 2011-11-07 23:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
< continue >

So, time for some personal experience with friends. I've brought some friends to EvE. They were all interested in online-spaceship games. No one ever payed a month by theirselves ( I paid some months via buddy invitation, no costs so it was okey). No one stayed in this game for longer than the free time I provided. I guess some of you made this experience too.

So, why did they stopped? That's a simple question. Waiting for 14 day's to fly a frig well, another 30 days to fly a BC decently, and another 120 days to fly a marauder or BS well is just akward. Especially if you want to see different parts of EvE too. (as an example -> train PvE-eazymode Raven to do Lv 4's to pay your account (or maybe an alt too) to reach a point at which you have enough money to Pevepe, and start to notice you're better with winmatar...Twisted JUST INSANE ammount of time with doing boring lv 4's or be cannonfodder in PvP)
This is for masochistic players only.

TL,DR: No active way to improve character progression -> for masochistic players only.

I hope you got the point now.
So, what I'm asking for?
Basically, it is a way to improve SP gain, yes. But I would like to have exiting stuff coming along with this.

Well, what could this be?
Imagine, you have some specialized GM's doing PvE/PvP/Mining "Events" which are rewared with a small ammount of SP for your actual skill in training.

Let's say GM Phantom has some spare time, starts a Sansha Invasion on Amarr, kicking in dozens of fleets attacking Emperor academy factory or Amarr prime. Players are informed 30 minutes before this, can form up fleets and gain honor and pride, which comes along with Amarr LP and a small ammount of SP for your actuall skill. (Lets say 5% for a lv 1 skill, 2,5 for lv 2, 1,5 for level 3, 1 for level 4 and 0,5 for level 5 skills. EXAMPLE!, tweak should be done by CCP, not me.)

Or do some "Hardcore" (Hardcore for PvE-type) PvE missions, fighting for your Empire at some borderland zones, fighting oposite factions with an increasing number of enemy's everytime you do such a mission (maybe to the point where you need atleast 5 Players to complete, with Incursion - like AI to avoid multiboxing). Reward this with tags (to avoid creating ISK) and a percentage of SP for your actual skill in training. You could bring this to lowsec too (increased rewards) to increase low sec population. You could make such kinds of mission as a storyline type, or have a chance to get one of this missions instead of a storyline.

Imagine some mining ops, with a HUGE asteroid players have to mine in a given time. If they do -> small SP gain.
Imagine a Huge asteroid is on his way to Jita 4-4, incase players are not able to mine the asteroid in a given time, it will colide with the station causing it to reinforce for some days --> Awesome, dynamic. Come on, stuff like this is happening all the time in Universe, not in EvE! Ugh


TL,DR: Make character progression exiting!

Come on, CCP can do even better than EvE is right now. Just be creative, give new players a valuable way to play EvE in the first months, and reward this. Make this game one huge step more exiting. Players will reward this for sure.
Jaraida
Doomheim
#3 - 2011-11-07 23:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
Okey, 3rd placeholder is not needed. (Damn, I hitted the symbol limit so early :/)

Oh, before I forget. I'm not trolling. If you have some serious problems with my suggestion, or with one of my points made,Just tell me, I will give you my thoughts on them. If you think I'm wrong, thats completely fine. But provide a reason please.

regards,
- Jaraida
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2011-11-08 00:06:21 UTC
Part of the reason I prefer EVE to other MMOs is BECAUSE there is no "XP/skillpoint/level grind." I can slap on a skill that will improve my abilities once it times down while going off to do other stuff... like actually hunt down and blow up other people.

Not supported.

How did you Veterans start?
Jaraida
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-08 00:12:45 UTC
Yeah, that's the reason why EvE is small. (no offense)

The majority of players playing MMO's likes to have an influence on character progression..
In EvE, you don't have this option.

Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it. But imagine one of the special GM's would make a PvP based event in low/nullsec. You won't like it?
Jaraida
Doomheim
#6 - 2011-11-08 00:17:15 UTC
Uargs, fail edit :/
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2011-11-08 00:21:51 UTC
Jaraida wrote:
Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it.


When something gives you a [more or less] permanent advantage (even in the form of "small amounts") it stops being optional.

How did you Veterans start?
Jaraida
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-11-08 00:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
ShahFluffers wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it.


When something gives you a [more or less] permanent advantage (even in the form of "small amounts") it stops being optional.


Well, thats true for most players, yes. But it proves that character progression is appreciated. (you would feel "forced" to do it, just because you want to max out your character, leads to: "you want it, you're doing what it takes")

Oh, and I can't find an advantage here. Isn't it common sense that SP doesn't matter in EvE? (because you can train up to a "equal skilllevel like your opponent in a reasonable time"?)
Jaraida
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-11-08 00:44:26 UTC
I hope this is going to be a nice discussion.
Unfortunately, I need some sleep now. Please tell me what you like and what you dislike about this.

fly safe everyone,
- Jaraida
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2011-11-08 01:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Jaraida wrote:
Well, thats true for most players, yes. But it proves that character progression is appreciated. (you would feel "forced" to do it, just because you want to max out your character, leads to: "you want it, you're doing what it takes")


Again... this is WHY I left other MMOs. I enjoy playing games, but I also have work and family to take care of... which prevents me from "grinding."

I should also add that "grinding" is a pretty awful way to psychologically hook people into an activity (ex. "JUST. ONE. MORE. LEVEL. THEN. PEE BREAK!"). It's much more relaxing (and healthy) to just log in, check skills, see what's going on, check the markets, chat with some peeps, check supplies, then maybe roam around if you have time. And you do all this because you voluntarily WANT to... not because you have the COMPULSION to.

Jaraida wrote:
Oh, and I can't find an advantage here. Isn't it common sense that SP doesn't matter in EvE? (because you can train up to a "equal skilllevel like your opponent in a reasonable time"?)


It's matters and it doesn't matter.

It matters with respect that skills you focused/specialized in will give you an advantage over someone who invested less time in those same skills... provided, of course, that both players are in the same ships with the same fittings, doing the same activities (though, this is rarely the case).
Skills also allow players to use certain ships and equipment to their maximum potential and/or give them better flexibility (in the form of what ships and/or mods they can use).

Skills DO NOT matter as they do not confer "super abilities." They all "hard cap" at 5 and getting a skill up to level 4 will allow you to operate at 75 to 90% of the effectiveness of someone who is at level 5 in that particular skill. This means that the "gap" between a "new and "older" player is not as great as some make it out to be. With a relatively "small" gap in power ship fittings and tactics play a much more important role.
We also know how effective it is to get a whole group of people together and have them act as a single unit... no matter how low on SP the whole group is they WILL cause serious damage against whomever they engage (say what you want about blobbing, but EVE Uni, Goonswarm, and 0.0 alliances have proven time and time again how effective it is).

You must also look at the bigger picture too. Ships ALSO play a part in the overall balance of the game with respect to skillpoints. Smaller ships are easier to skill for compared to big ships... which means that people can get into them faster.
Now... you might say that this is a limiting factor... and it is. The idea behind the skillsystem is that it ENCOURAGES you (via shorter training times) to start with frigates as they are generally cheaper and thus expendable (relatively speaking or course). You can learn so much about the game in terms of what there is to do, what you want to do, and what the game mechanics are by grabbing a cheapo frigate and flying into the abyss.
And if you lose your frigate... and you cry about... how do you think you are going to react when you just "powergrind" to use a big ship and then lose it due to ignorance?

How did you Veterans start?
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#11 - 2011-11-08 01:39:09 UTC
Hell, I would let the asteroid hit Jita 4-4 just to see it burn. Maybe even go score some easy hulk kills while positioning my ship for fireworks.
Nezumiiro Noneko
Alternative Enterprises
#12 - 2011-11-08 01:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nezumiiro Noneko
no.....


your events, are active. What about industrial sector? You have people shooting stuff making more sp than researches and manufacturers. they load up the ovens as many slots as they have. they can't have events, they jsut put in cruisrers and bs bpos in for em tweaking, be out in weeks to a month.

Or the flipside....give them sp for these runs. Now you ahve the server spamming research 24/7 for moar sp. t1 indy sucks as is is, we don't need 20000 people doing it to make it worse.


And you are skipping pvp'ers. Support watcihjng the gates as the bs' and caps and mommies pop the pos'. No one hitz the gate....they do nothing for hours on end if op long enough. Or the guys on the pos'. Mindless pressing of F1 as the ammo runs out. Sp farming out the ass there. So you'd have empire people going well they get to shoot large death stars for 10's of thousadns of shots per hour while I get cruisers that die in 4 shots. Bit of a disparity there. Don't know if you have done marathon pos ops. Even amarr burn out some crystals lol. Even better, you get oddballs like me who point, paint, web and scram pos mods and outposts. rake in some more sp with e-war spam.


Eve's model is fine. It targets a certain player type. Generally more mature gamers who have lives and responsibilities. Why most of us came to eve and stay here. I never get behind former corp mates I leave when rl gets busy. Like now....lone wolf in empire, play when I can. Get better scheduling I go back to corp bigger better and stronger. Works well for me.

Also works well for cpp. As I can't plex like I used to and and down to bare eseentials and wallet to cover day 1 buys if I return and go back to 0.0 I get a monthly credit card charge. Other games with play for sp.....would not be getting this free money from me. My rule of thumb for play for xp games is if I cannot be on more than half of the month, I kill the account. Eve says you trian BS 5 (whats in the list now) the same way everyone else does. CCP gets my $15 a month for that feature. Some good ratting....I'll get my free game time back and then some to have it all come out in the wash.
Arand Nersar
State War Academy
#13 - 2011-11-08 06:44:38 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Well, thats true for most players, yes. But it proves that character progression is appreciated. (you would feel "forced" to do it, just because you want to max out your character, leads to: "you want it, you're doing what it takes")


Again... this is WHY I left other MMOs. I enjoy playing games, but I also have work and family to take care of... which prevents me from "grinding."

I should also add that "grinding" is a pretty awful way to psychologically hook people into an activity (ex. "JUST. ONE. MORE. LEVEL. THEN. PEE BREAK!"). It's much more relaxing (and healthy) to just log in, check skills, see what's going on, check the markets, chat with some peeps, check supplies, then maybe roam around if you have time. And you do all this because you voluntarily WANT to... not because you have the COMPULSION to.

Jaraida wrote:
Oh, and I can't find an advantage here. Isn't it common sense that SP doesn't matter in EvE? (because you can train up to a "equal skilllevel like your opponent in a reasonable time"?)


It's matters and it doesn't matter.

It matters with respect that skills you focused/specialized in will give you an advantage over someone who invested less time in those same skills... provided, of course, that both players are in the same ships with the same fittings, doing the same activities (though, this is rarely the case).
Skills also allow players to use certain ships and equipment to their maximum potential and/or give them better flexibility (in the form of what ships and/or mods they can use).

Skills DO NOT matter as they do not confer "super abilities." They all "hard cap" at 5 and getting a skill up to level 4 will allow you to operate at 75 to 90% of the effectiveness of someone who is at level 5 in that particular skill. This means that the "gap" between a "new and "older" player is not as great as some make it out to be. With a relatively "small" gap in power ship fittings and tactics play a much more important role.
We also know how effective it is to get a whole group of people together and have them act as a single unit... no matter how low on SP the whole group is they WILL cause serious damage against whomever they engage (say what you want about blobbing, but EVE Uni, Goonswarm, and 0.0 alliances have proven time and time again how effective it is).

You must also look at the bigger picture too. Ships ALSO play a part in the overall balance of the game with respect to skillpoints. Smaller ships are easier to skill for compared to big ships... which means that people can get into them faster.
Now... you might say that this is a limiting factor... and it is. The idea behind the skillsystem is that it ENCOURAGES you (via shorter training times) to start with frigates as they are generally cheaper and thus expendable (relatively speaking or course). You can learn so much about the game in terms of what there is to do, what you want to do, and what the game mechanics are by grabbing a cheapo frigate and flying into the abyss.
And if you lose your frigate... and you cry about... how do you think you are going to react when you just "powergrind" to use a big ship and then lose it due to ignorance?



QFT
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-11-08 06:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Jaraida wrote:
Yeah, that's the reason why EvE is small. (no offense)

Yes, and that's the way we like it. I'd rather have 300,000 mature EVE players than 3,000,000 WoW kiddies and chinese XP farmers.

Jaraida wrote:
The majority of players playing MMO's likes to have an influence on character progression..
In EvE, you don't have this option.

Bullshit on so many levels I won't even start.

Jaraida wrote:
Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it. But imagine one of the special GM's would make a PvP based event in low/nullsec. You won't like it?

My alliance and my corp organizes PvP based events every day. I don't need a GM to hold my hand through the game.

If EVE doesn't give you enough incentive to play, go play another game that does. Don't try to change the game for 300,000 other people who like it the way it is.
Jaraida
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-11-08 20:43:41 UTC
Good evening.
I am back again, and will share my opinions on what you've said.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Well, thats true for most players, yes. But it proves that character progression is appreciated. (you would feel "forced" to do it, just because you want to max out your character, leads to: "you want it, you're doing what it takes")


Again... this is WHY I left other MMOs. I enjoy playing games, but I also have work and family to take care of... which prevents me from "grinding."

I should also add that "grinding" is a pretty awful way to psychologically hook people into an activity (ex. "JUST. ONE. MORE. LEVEL. THEN. PEE BREAK!"). It's much more relaxing (and healthy) to just log in, check skills, see what's going on, check the markets, chat with some peeps, check supplies, then maybe roam around if you have time. And you do all this because you voluntarily WANT to... not because you have the COMPULSION to.


That's the reason why I don't want a "press Button X to get Y SP" either. I don't want to force players to do a "needed" grind.
I want some fun and dynamic stuff rewarded with some SP. Since you don't have to grind SP (cause EvE will do it for you anyway, only a bit more slow) there is no need to do if you don't want to.

That's the difference to other games. Most MMO's don't have the option to progress with your character without interaction. (It is boring anyway, and this is what forces you to grind) That's one of the main reasons EvE is small in success. RPG's (either single-player or MMO) rely on character progress. It's just the way it works.
EvE character progress is so awesomely boring, that it gives you no incentive to play.

Consider me as an example for a WoW - Player. Playing 5 years (with almost no great break) leads to something ~ 300 days playtime. (10 chars alltogether) If I would count leveling time together, I may hit something arround 50-60 Days at max. Thats 1/6 of the time. Reduce this by 20 days for the first char and you have the time I did a grind. Rest of the time was character progressing on maxlevel through raids, PvP etc. etc. Character progress is the one thing which drives most players. Why? Because character development is the main reason why you are playing an MMORPG, and not SimCity or Counter strike.
Log in to World of Warcraft arround rush hour, type in one random maxlevel instance name with /who command and you will see that there are ppl playing it. Why? Character progress. Shiny Epics gives you more Power. (WoW character progress is build arround Items, not Levels) Clearly, you can make a fool out of me now, because I'm addicted to WoW or jada jada jada, but this doesn't harm my points. So feel free.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Oh, and I can't find an advantage here. Isn't it common sense that SP doesn't matter in EvE? (because you can train up to a "equal skilllevel like your opponent in a reasonable time"?)


It's matters and it doesn't matter.

It matters with respect that skills you focused/specialized in will give you an advantage over someone who invested less time in those same skills... provided, of course, that both players are in the same ships with the same fittings, doing the same activities (though, this is rarely the case).
Skills also allow players to use certain ships and equipment to their maximum potential and/or give them better flexibility (in the form of what ships and/or mods they can use).
Finally someone not arguing against "Skills doesn't matter". Thumbs up for this. I have only one small thing to add. Skills are more advantageous than this.

The rookie player with his trained up Wolf and T2 AC's may shoot the 5y + Player, but that 5y + Player might come back in a T2 cruiser and will blow the rookie out of universe with it. Having more Skills is a signifant advantage, cause you have atleast access to more ships on which you can rely on. This might be my personal mindset, but it is true if the difference between playtime-years is big enough.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Skills DO NOT matter as they do not confer "super abilities." They all "hard cap" at 5 and getting a skill up to level 4 will allow you to operate at 75 to 90% of the effectiveness of someone who is at level 5 in that particular skill. This means that the "gap" between a "new and "older" player is not as great as some make it out to be. With a relatively "small" gap in power ship fittings and tactics play a much more important role.
We also know how effective it is to get a whole group of people together and have them act as a single unit... no matter how low on SP the whole group is they WILL cause serious damage against whomever they engage (say what you want about blobbing, but EVE Uni, Goonswarm, and 0.0 alliances have proven time and time again how effective it is).


Well, you call 10-25% difference in effectiveness a "small gap"? Sorry man, but this is hilarious. Consider the difference between weapon skills IV and V, which is HUGE. Consider the difference between Logistics IV and V which is even more HUGE. (I've heard something arround 60%)
And consider the point that it's likely that the older player will beat a younger player in almost every situation you mentioned. (blobbs etc)
Unfortunately, I have to cut the rest from you. (symbol limit again!) But it doesn't matter because it's pretty much correct. Only point I have to disagree a bit, is that It might be strange that the game favorizes frigs for starters although every older player has to rush for caps to be competitive in the larger scale. ;) (I will go on with the next comment)
Velicitia
XS Tech
#16 - 2011-11-08 21:06:50 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Well, thats true for most players, yes. But it proves that character progression is appreciated. (you would feel "forced" to do it, just because you want to max out your character, leads to: "you want it, you're doing what it takes")


Again... this is WHY I left other MMOs. I enjoy playing games, but I also have work and family to take care of... which prevents me from "grinding."

I should also add that "grinding" is a pretty awful way to psychologically hook people into an activity (ex. "JUST. ONE. MORE. LEVEL. THEN. PEE BREAK!"). It's much more relaxing (and healthy) to just log in, check skills, see what's going on, check the markets, chat with some peeps, check supplies, then maybe roam around if you have time. And you do all this because you voluntarily WANT to... not because you have the COMPULSION to.

Jaraida wrote:
Oh, and I can't find an advantage here. Isn't it common sense that SP doesn't matter in EvE? (because you can train up to a "equal skilllevel like your opponent in a reasonable time"?)


It's matters and it doesn't matter.

It matters with respect that skills you focused/specialized in will give you an advantage over someone who invested less time in those same skills... provided, of course, that both players are in the same ships with the same fittings, doing the same activities (though, this is rarely the case).
Skills also allow players to use certain ships and equipment to their maximum potential and/or give them better flexibility (in the form of what ships and/or mods they can use).

Skills DO NOT matter as they do not confer "super abilities." They all "hard cap" at 5 and getting a skill up to level 4 will allow you to operate at 75 to 90% of the effectiveness of someone who is at level 5 in that particular skill. This means that the "gap" between a "new and "older" player is not as great as some make it out to be. With a relatively "small" gap in power ship fittings and tactics play a much more important role.
We also know how effective it is to get a whole group of people together and have them act as a single unit... no matter how low on SP the whole group is they WILL cause serious damage against whomever they engage (say what you want about blobbing, but EVE Uni, Goonswarm, and 0.0 alliances have proven time and time again how effective it is).

You must also look at the bigger picture too. Ships ALSO play a part in the overall balance of the game with respect to skillpoints. Smaller ships are easier to skill for compared to big ships... which means that people can get into them faster.
Now... you might say that this is a limiting factor... and it is. The idea behind the skillsystem is that it ENCOURAGES you (via shorter training times) to start with frigates as they are generally cheaper and thus expendable (relatively speaking or course). You can learn so much about the game in terms of what there is to do, what you want to do, and what the game mechanics are by grabbing a cheapo frigate and flying into the abyss.
And if you lose your frigate... and you cry about... how do you think you are going to react when you just "powergrind" to use a big ship and then lose it due to ignorance?


QFT
+2

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jaraida
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-11-08 21:12:27 UTC
Okey, one done, two to go :)
Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:
no.....


your events, are active. What about industrial sector? You have people shooting stuff making more sp than researches and manufacturers. they load up the ovens as many slots as they have. they can't have events, they jsut put in cruisrers and bs bpos in for em tweaking, be out in weeks to a month.

Or the flipside....give them sp for these runs. Now you ahve the server spamming research 24/7 for moar sp. t1 indy sucks as is is, we don't need 20000 people doing it to make it worse.


To be honest, I haven't thought about indy players in the first place. I'm sorry for this :/
But, there is some stuff you can do for Indy's.
As an example:

Imagine faction X wants a new PoS/starbase/fleet for the fight against faction Y in system 123. They lack the materials and/or industrial power to get what they need, so they are hiring capsuleers. Your job as an Indy could be to to gather mins, build stuff X in quantity Y, haul this stuff to point Z or something like this. You could involve research if special items are required.
(I'm not the most creative person in the world, so don't nail me on this one. CCP has creative ppl, and I guess they could figure something out if needed)

Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:

And you are skipping pvp'ers. Support watcihjng the gates as the bs' and caps and mommies pop the pos'. No one hitz the gate....they do nothing for hours on end if op long enough. Or the guys on the pos'. Mindless pressing of F1 as the ammo runs out. Sp farming out the ass there. So you'd have empire people going well they get to shoot large death stars for 10's of thousadns of shots per hour while I get cruisers that die in 4 shots. Bit of a disparity there. Don't know if you have done marathon pos ops. Even amarr burn out some crystals lol. Even better, you get oddballs like me who point, paint, web and scram pos mods and outposts. rake in some more sp with e-war spam.


I guess it's relatively easy to design some PvP stuff for this "events".. disable concord in certain highsec systems (every player who destroys a ship will get some Sp), make fleet deathmatch fighting for a relevant solar system in factional warfare etc. etc. (again, creative heads @ CCP ;))

Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:

Eve's model is fine. It targets a certain player type. Generally more mature gamers who have lives and responsibilities. Why most of us came to eve and stay here. I never get behind former corp mates I leave when rl gets busy. Like now....lone wolf in empire, play when I can. Get better scheduling I go back to corp bigger better and stronger. Works well for me.


Yes, you are right. EvE's model is fine for its playerbase. But that's not a reason to stop improving this towards other players. More players would help CCP for sure. 300k subs is really low in for a MMORPG.

Nezumiiro Noneko wrote:

Also works well for cpp. As I can't plex like I used to and and down to bare eseentials and wallet to cover day 1 buys if I return and go back to 0.0 I get a monthly credit card charge. Other games with play for sp.....would not be getting this free money from me. My rule of thumb for play for xp games is if I cannot be on more than half of the month, I kill the account. Eve says you trian BS 5 (whats in the list now) the same way everyone else does. CCP gets my $15 a month for that feature. Some good ratting....I'll get my free game time back and then some to have it all come out in the wash.


Yeah, sure. But more players would be nice for CCP and the game. Even for most of the players (Hi@ lowsec = empty). You won't get a good increase in playerbase without a better incentive to play than farming virtual money or KB stats.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2011-11-08 21:30:19 UTC
Quote:
That's the reason why I don't want a "press Button X to get Y SP" either. I don't want to force players to do a "needed" grind.
I want some fun and dynamic stuff rewarded with some SP. Since you don't have to grind SP (cause EvE will do it for you anyway, only a bit more slow) there is no need to do if you don't want to.


Please re-read what I said earlier. When you get permanent "rewards" that directly benefit your character's abilities by doing certain activities (more matter how small the gain or monotonous the activity) then it stops being optional. You HAVE to grind if you want to have more SP than the other guy whom you are "competing" against.

Quote:
That's the difference to other games. Most MMO's don't have the option to progress with your character without interaction. (It is boring anyway, and this is what forces you to grind) That's one of the main reasons EvE is small in success. RPG's (either single-player or MMO) rely on character progress. It's just the way it works.
EvE character progress is so awesomely boring, that it gives you no incentive to play.


And this is where you must understand the "EVE mentality"... we log in because we want to DO stuff... productive stuff... without being burdened by the tedium of "grinding" up skillpoints in order to be "more effective."

Quote:
Because character development is the main reason why you are playing an MMORPG, and not SimCity or Counter strike
.

If you think that this is the main point of MMOs then you are unnecessarily limiting yourself and not seeing the "bigger picture."

Quote:
The rookie player with his trained up Wolf and T2 AC's may shoot the 5y + Player, but that 5y + Player might come back in a T2 cruiser and will blow the rookie out of universe with it. Having more Skills is a signifant advantage, cause you have atleast access to more ships on which you can rely on. This might be my personal mindset, but it is true if the difference between playtime-years is big enough.


Certainly, the older player CAN get into a larger ship and come after the younger player who is still in a Frigate... provided that the younger player is dumb enough to wait. In a Cruiser, the older player will be at an AUTOMATIC disadvantage in terms of mobility and speed compared to the Frigate.
In other words... newbie kills older player in frigate... older player comes back in larger ship... newbie doesn't like what he/she sees and GTFOs... older player can't keep up and breaks off pursuit.

Quote:
Well, you call 10-25% difference in effectiveness a "small gap"? Sorry man, but this is hilarious. Consider the difference between weapon skills IV and V, which is HUGE. Consider the difference between Logistics IV and V which is even more HUGE. (I've heard something arround 60%)
And consider the point that it's likely that the older player will beat a younger player in almost every situation you mentioned. (blobbs etc)


I do call a 10-25% difference a "small gap"... small enough that a "special" mod or two can significantly alter the dynamics of a straight 1v1 fight.
Example: A younger player, with level 4 skills all the way down, goes up again an older with all level 5 skills. The older player sticks to a "standard fit" with his/her ship... the younger player uses the same ship with more of less the same fitting... but equips a tracking disruptor with a tracking script.
The two fight and the younger player activates the tracking disruptor. Now the older player's guns have their ability to track the younger player cut down by 40%+... which means less damage is being applied to said younger player... which means that the younger player's "lesser" tanking skills will not be as much of a liability.

And as far as blobs are concerned... read up on how Goonswarm came to power. Their alliance literally stated their campaign with week-old characters in FRIGATES and crushed CAPITAL fleets.


To close... everything works to balance out everything else and all must be taken in context. Yes, sometimes skills matter (especially with certain ships like Logistics and Battlecruiser class on up)... but sometimes tactics, fittings, and information matter more (which is the case for frigates and cruisers).

How did you Veterans start?
Jaraida
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-11-08 21:31:39 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Jaraida wrote:
Yeah, that's the reason why EvE is small. (no offense)

Yes, and that's the way we like it. I'd rather have 300,000 mature EVE players than 3,000,000 WoW kiddies and chinese XP farmers.
Okey, first point. Keep in mind that many, many players have alts. If you consider 1 alt-account per 2 players (which might be unrealistic) you have 200k different players.
Second point: Look at this thread and count likes and no-likes. It's 5vs5 without counting me. We will see how this works out.

Third point: Having a preconception is so much mature, yes..
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
The majority of players playing MMO's likes to have an influence on character progression..
In EvE, you don't have this option.

Bullshit on so many levels I won't even start.[/quote]

What is bullshit? Majority of players playing MMORPG's for character progression? If you think: yes! than do your homework please. Roleplaying is all about character development.
Or do you think you don't have an influence in EvE? Well, that might be true. You can buy IMPS. True. (did I mentioned "boring"?)

Jaraida wrote:
Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it. But imagine one of the special GM's would make a PvP based event in low/nullsec. You won't like it?
My alliance and my corp organizes PvP based events every day. I don't need a GM to hold my hand through the game.

How many hours are you waiting for a chance to PvP? Come on man, you should appreciate events like this. Even if it's for the sake of reducing the time you have to look, scout and wait for PvP.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:
If EVE doesn't give you enough incentive to play, go play another game that does. Don't try to change the game for 300,000 other people who like it the way it is.


Eve is giving me enough incentive to play. That's the reason why the topic has it's "give me more" in it. You can allways try to improve the games you like. Even if the odds are against you. That's what I'm doing.
Rina Asanari
CitadeI
#20 - 2011-11-09 09:58:00 UTC
I actually like EvE because one DOESN'T need to grind for XP and having no "optional" XP gathering method, since it wouldn't be "optional" but more or less required just because to keep pace with the corp/alliance mates or such...

There is enough incentive to play already, and I wouldn't want to allocate my time to mind-numbing SP grinding.
12Next page